Why do your suppose that Catholics believe in Purgatory

[punisherthunder]

• It’s referenced in the Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocrypha
• Martin Luther purposefully removed the Apocryphal books…therefore robbing Christians of the knowledge of Purgatory.
• Plus as Fr. Corapi used to say, always aim for Heaven because if you try hard enough and still fall short, you will be glorified through Purgatory.

 

[pablope]

If you you may…answer my previous question. Does this not mean that EVERY saved soul has to undergo some sort of purification. You are a Catholic, right?

Now do you believe that Saints are perfect beings before they die and enter heaven?

I thought only God is perfect and every other being is imperfect?

Let me clarify this…the Saints, whethere they are perfect or not before they die…we do not know…only God knows. And only God knows when they entered heaven.

The Saints…and I think you are referring to those that the Catholic Church calls saints…I believe there are in this state when they die…they are in the “unitive state.”

newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

The unitive way

The unitive way is the way of those who are in the state of the perfect, that is, those who have their minds so drawn away from all temporal things that they enjoy great peace, who are neither agitated by various desires nor moved by any great extent by passion, and who have their minds chiefly fixed on God and their attention turned, either always or very frequently, to Him. It is the union with God by love and the actual experience and exercise of that love. It is called the state of “perfect charity”, because souls who have reached that state are ever prompt in the exercise of charity by loving God habitually and by frequent and efficacious acts of that Divine virtue. It is called the “unitive” way because it is by love that the soul is united to God, and the more perfect the charity, the closer and more intimate is the union. Union with God is the principal study and endeavor of this state. It is of this union St. Paul speaks when he says: “He who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit.” (1 Corinthians 6:17).

 

[Tommy999]

I was curious as to whether Catholicism teaches that Purgatory is a painful process (like being constantly tasered, etc) or whether it is akin to going through a spiritual carwash where cleansing takes place but the person is not in a great deal of agony.

In the end, it sounds like the person who is in Purgatory eventually makes it to heaven, but it is unclear as to how long the whole process takes.

Follow up question:
Can others lessen the time of the person in Purgatory through their intercessory prayers?

Thanks.

 

[Michael68]

I was curious as to whether Catholicism teaches that Purgatory is a painful process (like being constantly tasered, etc) or whether it is akin to going through a spiritual carwash where cleansing takes place but the person is not in a great deal of agony.

In the end, it sounds like the person who is in Purgatory eventually makes it to heaven, but it is unclear as to how long the whole process takes.

Follow up questions:
Can others lessen the time of the person in Purgatory through their intercessory prayers?

Thanks.

I don’t know the first, but yes to the second

 

[Tommy999]

I don’t know the first, but yes to the second

Thanks, Michael. Is it possible to know when to stop praying for the person and to know they have finally arrived in heaven or do people keep praying for the person just in case?

 

[Michael68]

Thanks, Michael. Is it possible to know when to stop praying for the person and to know they have finally arrived in heaven or do people keep praying for the person just in case?

I don’t think we can know. We pray for a soul in Purgatory regularly at our Church

 

[Tommy999]

I don’t think we can know. We pray for a soul in Purgatory regularly at our Church

Thank you, sir. I had always wanted to ask that question but don’t know many Catholics in my daily life outside of CAF.

 

[Dorothy]

Thanks, Michael. Is it possible to know when to stop praying for the person and to know they have finally arrived in heaven or do people keep praying for the person just in case?

We can keep praying, and also be aware that if the person is already in heaven, then our prayers will be applied to someone else.

 

[Michael68]

Thank you, sir. I had always wanted to ask that question but don’t know many Catholics in my daily life outside of CAF.

You’re welcome!!! I like to share things I know about the faith as well as learn from others more knowledgeable than me

 

[josephback]

Purgatory is opposed (must be opposed!) because it undermines the foundation of bible Christianity: the personal doctrines of Martin Luther. Destroy Luther’s doctrines, destroy Protestantism. It is a defense mechanism of theological error.

Purgatory was defined centuries before Luther was born, at Lateran IV. The doctrine of Vicarious Atonement and the metaphysics of participation (becoming just in essence) imply it, whereas the Reformed metaphysics of penal substitution (just by declaration) deny it.

 

[josephback]

Follow up question:
Can others lessen the time of the person in Purgatory through their intercessory prayers?

Thanks.

Yes. Although the grace of justification is pure gift and cannot be earned, after this a person can earn additional graces for themselves and others through cooperation with the divine will. Because God both prepares these works and provides the power to act, there is no room for the person to boast. People in Purgatory are those who die with sanctifying grace but who still require purification to enter heaven. They have lost all ability to change their spiritual state (having only hope) and thus rely on those still on earth to pray for them, that they complete this purification and attain to the vision of God. The flames of purgatory are an image this purification, whereas the Orthodox prefer a more medicinal image.

 

[superwimp]

Hi, I’m the OP

As a student I am curious of just what YOU mean by “being saved from sin?”

ALSO just to be clear [and TO GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO PONDER]

There is a relavance to Purgatory and our human lives. Life IS the {A} God test:thumbsup:

GBY and thanks for posting

Patrick

Hello PJM,

(“being saved from sin”.) According to the book of Acts what Jesus accomplished was bringing the Holy Ghost into the world which cleanses us from sin. That’s why the big selling point was to receive the HG. The bible verses are king James.
MT 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name
JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
MK 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they
may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be
converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
LK 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the
remission of their sins,
ACTS 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort,
saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

There is a relavance to Purgatory and our human lives. Life IS the {A} God test:thumbsup:<<<
Reincarnation combined with Karma teaches that life is a learning experience as opposed to a test. The difference with regards to relevance to our lives is with purgatory a person observes a “written” code of ethics. In the case of Catholicism it would be attending church, confession, saying the rosary, etc. With reincarnation/karma we view each action in terms of how it will effect our future both during this life and in future lives.

 

[meltzerboy]

I was curious as to whether Catholicism teaches that Purgatory is a painful process (like being constantly tasered, etc) or whether it is akin to going through a spiritual carwash where cleansing takes place but the person is not in a great deal of agony.

In the end, it sounds like the person who is in Purgatory eventually makes it to heaven, but it is unclear as to how long the whole process takes.

Follow up question:
Can others lessen the time of the person in Purgatory through their intercessory prayers?

Thanks.

FYI Judaism also believes in purgatory, although it doesn’t use the term. We pray for the souls of the deceased as well. Jewish “purgatory,” however, has its limits, generally 11 months (rather than a full year) since it is hoped that none whom we pray for is so evil that they need to be cleansed for a whole year, and if they ARE so evil, they are probably not in purgatory.

 

[Dorothy]

Hello PJM,

(“being saved from sin”.) According to the book of Acts what Jesus accomplished was bringing the Holy Ghost into the world which cleanses us from sin. That’s why the big selling point was to receive the HG. The bible verses are king James.
MT 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name
JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
MK 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they
may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be
converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
LK 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the
remission of their sins,
ACTS 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort,
saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

There is a relavance to Purgatory and our human lives. Life IS the {A} God test:thumbsup:<<<
Reincarnation combined with Karma teaches that life is a learning experience as opposed to a test. The difference with regards to relevance to our lives is with purgatory a person observes a “written” code of ethics. In the case of Catholicism it would be attending church, confession, saying the rosary, etc. With reincarnation/karma we view each action in terms of how it will effect our future both during this life and in future lives.

Catholics believe that this life is where we can be sanctified if we freely cooperate with the grace of the Lord. His Precious Blood purchased this for us, and He left us the means to be able to cooperate with His grace. Attending church with other believers and making use of His grace through the sacraments is where we meet Him in a special way.

 

[rose_kelly]

FYI **Judaism also believes in purgatory,**although it doesn’t use the term. We pray for the souls of the deceased as well. Jewish “purgatory,” however, has its limits, generally 11 months (rather than a full year) since it is hoped that none whom we pray for is so evil that they need to be cleansed for a whole year, and if they ARE so evil, they are probably not in purgatory.

There is mention of that with reference to Maccabees from old testament scripture in this informative Catholic Answers article about purgatory.

catholic.com/tracts/purgatory
“Prayers for the dead and the consiquent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ”.

 

[Kliska]

Isn’t there a mention of Purgation/Purgatory being the Light of Christ that burns away imperfection in writings by Pope Benedict? That idea makes sense to me, moreso than Purgatory being akin to a physical place. We non-liturgical protestants like to quote Paul when he talks of being changed in a twinkling of an eye, so we do know a process happens for our physical selves, perhaps that could have a parallel for our spirit/soul as well after death. If I’ve read right, that may correspond to a more Orthodox way of looking at it… and it is something CS Lewis talks of as well.

 

[Vico]

Isn’t there a mention of Purgation/Purgatory being the Light of Christ that burns away imperfection in writings by Pope Benedict? That idea makes sense to me, moreso than Purgatory being akin to a physical place. We non-liturgical protestants like to quote Paul when he talks of being changed in a twinkling of an eye, so we do know a process happens for our physical selves, perhaps that could have a parallel for our spirit/soul as well after death. If I’ve read right, that may correspond to a more Orthodox way of looking at it… and it is something CS Lewis talks of as well.

Eastern Orthodox do not universally accept the particular (immediate) judgement. Council of Florence (1439) repudiated non-Catholic teachings spread in the east on Purgatory, Particular Judgment, and Beatific Vision.

 

[Dorothy]

Isn’t there a mention of Purgation/Purgatory being the Light of Christ that burns away imperfection in writings by Pope Benedict? That idea makes sense to me, moreso than Purgatory being akin to a physical place. We non-liturgical protestants like to quote Paul when he talks of being changed in a twinkling of an eye, so we do know a process happens for our physical selves, perhaps that could have a parallel for our spirit/soul as well after death. If I’ve read right, that may correspond to a more Orthodox way of looking at it… and it is something CS Lewis talks of as well.

I have heard of that before as well and it makes much sense, that the Light of Christ is what removes their imperfections.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

Let me clarify this…the Saints, whethere they are perfect or not before they die…we do not know…only God knows. And only God knows when they entered heaven.

The Saints…and I think you are referring to those that the Catholic Church calls saints…I believe there are in this state when they die…they are in the “unitive state.”

newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

The unitive way

The unitive way is the way of those who are in the state of the perfect, that is, those who have their minds so drawn away from all temporal things that they enjoy great peace, who are neither agitated by various desires nor moved by any great extent by passion, and who have their minds chiefly fixed on God and their attention turned, either always or very frequently, to Him. It is the union with God by love and the actual experience and exercise of that love. It is called the state of “perfect charity”, because souls who have reached that state are ever prompt in the exercise of charity by loving God habitually and by frequent and efficacious acts of that Divine virtue. It is called the “unitive” way because it is by love that the soul is united to God, and the more perfect the charity, the closer and more intimate is the union. Union with God is the principal study and endeavor of this state. It is of this union St. Paul speaks when he says: “He who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit.” (1 Corinthians 6:17).

My mistake, I have to ask the Catholics again a question to understand this more clearly.

Do Catholics believe there are Saints that avoid the stage of Purgatory at all cost?

 

[PJM]

What is logical about believing in Purgatory?

Why is Purgatory “logical”

If we are able to understand GOD as “ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED”

We are heading in the direction od a GREAT Moral Truth.

1 Tim 2:3-4.
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Add to this teaching WHY this is:

Gen 1:26-27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Then factor in these teachings

1Jn.5: 16 to 17
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal

We ask: are fairness and justice “good things?”

Of COURSE they are so we can know that God in an absolute sense MUST BE fair & just

So God CANNOT & BE God] treat all sinners equally in Divine Justice

1Jn.1: 8 to 9
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins

God in Divine Justice provides the essential opportunity for humanity to have there sins forgiven & forgotten

Jn 20: 19 to 23
Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with YOU” When he had said this, he showed THEM his hands and his side. Even as my Father has sent ME, even so I send YOU." "Receive the Holy Spirit. If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Surely this is a VERY “good thing”

[ALL sins] have a penalty imposed on them that reflects the public nature of all sin, in that sins affect & effect others besides the sinner themselves.

THIS is necessary because of God’s sense of Divine Justice & fairness In a real sense Sacramental Confession removed our sins and God forgets them, HOWEVER as All sins have a negative affect on the Church, on those we have in some manner injured by our sins, & on God;s “Moral Order”; a hidden DEBT is incurred, as determined by God Himself.

The theological term used is “THE TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT DUE TO OUR SINS” & it is totally “charged” and repaid by ONLY God’s accounting.

God is the ONLY “auditor” of this DEBT that He imposes and ALSO on the necessary repayment of THIS DEBT in order for the Soul be be PERFECT

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

1John.3: 2 to 3 “Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.”

Just as God instituted Sacramental Confession so that we CAN KNOW that He God HAS truly forgiven us our sins [GOD"S WAY]; similarly God permits HIS CHURCH** [Mt 10:1-8; Mt 16:18-19; Jn 17:17-20 & Mt 28:18-20]** as the ones that HE gave ALL of the Keys’ to heaven single gate, to institute in HIS NAME a method of “JUST-payback” for this Temporal Punishment that ALL sin accure [Mt 16:19]

The theological term the Church uses for this is “Indulgences”; which are a variety of prayers & Works

Jas.2:13 to 22
For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment. What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? **So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead

Jn.13: 34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another

St. James teaching is exactly what John Teaches here..

So GOD permits and empowers His CHURCH to have a WAY that allows for sacrificial repayment of the DEBT of sins temporal punishment. Hence a Soul CAN BE perfected in their lifetime and enabled upon death to ascent directly into heaven.

**BUT what about the countless Souls that fail to advantage this OFFER; this opportunity?

By Divine Justice they cannot enter into heaven as they are not PERFECT & and GOD will [cannot] accept nothing but perfect -souls into HIS Divine Presence. Nor can they in Divine Justice be sent to Hell and they died with NO unconfessed, unforgiven MORTAL sins**

IT IS THESE MANY SOULS THAT GOD PERMITS TO BE MADE PERFECT so that HIS sense of fairness and justice are satisfied, & HIS Love for those created in HIS image, can upon full repayment of the hidden debt; ascend into heaven.

So Purgatory is a reflection of God’s Divine Love and Mercy. Amen!

God Bless you

Patrick**