Why do your suppose that Catholics believe in Purgatory

[OneBlanketBoss]

Yes. When they have allowed the Lord, by His grace, to empty themselves and be totally filled with Him, (according to the capacity the Lord gave them) then they do not need Purgatory (purification) because they already are filled with Him.

You see…this is the problem for me. At first Catholics mention that nothing perfect is allowed to be present in the Heavenly Kingdom however Catholic Saints are excluded because for whatever reason.

In the Bible it clearly says you shall not enter heaven unless you pay the LAST penny. Now we all know since the history of the Catholic Church there has not existed a single Saint who throughout his WHOLE life did not commit ANY sins. This immediately makes him IMPERFECT and therefore in my opinion the Church shouldn’t teach something like this

However, I do appreciate some of these answers were Catholics stated that some Saints HAD to go through some sort of cleansing in order to be accepted to be with God. But we just don’t know when they reached their heavenly home. If they had to go through some sort of process then that is very understandable.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

FYI Judaism also believes in purgatory, although it doesn’t use the term. We pray for the souls of the deceased as well. Jewish “purgatory,” however, has its limits, generally 11 months (rather than a full year) since it is hoped that none whom we pray for is so evil that they need to be cleansed for a whole year, and if they ARE so evil, they are probably not in purgatory.

Hello Meltzerboy
I have heard from a Catholic Apologist that Jews did not believe in an afterlife for thousands of years therefore it lead me to believe that Jews don’t accept beliefs such as hell, or heaven.

If you can be so kind, could you post some verses from the Old Testament or that Torah where Heaven and Hellfire as well as Purgatory are mentioned. I am not asking in those exact words but this would interest me.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

PJM: I’m not saying I don’t believe in an afterlife. I very much believe in an afterlife.There is proof/evidence enough for me in what I’ve experienced in this life to leave me with no doubt there is something after this physical existence. I don’t know what form whatever happens after this life takes nor do I believe that important. This life right now and how I live it is what is important.

I agree

 

[meltzerboy]

PJM: I’m not saying I don’t believe in an afterlife. I very much believe in an afterlife.There is proof/evidence enough for me in what I’ve experienced in this life to leave me with no doubt there is something after this physical existence. I don’t know what form whatever happens after this life takes nor do I believe that important. This life right now and how I live it is what is important.

The primary importance of “this life right now and how (I) live it…” is very much a cardinal tenet of Judaism. The afterlife is not neatly expressed in the Torah or the other portions of the Tanach, and so, Jews believe that G-d prefers that we not speculate on it too much, but rather pay most of our attention to living and developing our gifts in the present and helping others live and develop better lives, not by converting to Judaism if they do not wish to, but by cultivating and putting into action their own religious and/or moral beliefs to the best of their ability.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hello Meltzerboy
I have heard from a Catholic Apologist that Jews did not believe in an afterlife for thousands of years therefore it lead me to believe that Jews don’t accept beliefs such as hell, or heaven.

If you can be so kind, could you post some verses from the Old Testament or that Torah where Heaven and Hellfire as well as Purgatory are mentioned. I am not asking in those exact words but this would interest me.

Similar to Christianity (and most other religions), Judaism has evolved, and according to some, is still evolving. However, on the issue of the afterlife, there were differences of opinion from the start. Among the 20+ ancient Jewish denominations or sects, the Pharisees most notably believed in some kind of afterlife, while the Sadducees did not. Biblically speaking, the notion of Sheol: a shadowy place of death, which did not clearly differentiate the good from the evil, to Gehinnom (Gehenna): which did divide heaven from hell, one can perceive a change in the Hebrew Scriptures with regard to the meanings of the World to Come. This is complicated, though, by the teachings of the Oral Torah and ongoing tradition with respect to the afterlife. Today, many Jews believe, however vaguely, in some form of heaven, including an eventual resurrection of the body, whereas hell is described in various ways, ranging from a separation of the soul from G-d to an annihilation of the soul of the truly wicked who cannot be cleansed by purgatory. The notion of physical torture in hell is not generally part of Jewish teaching although I have heard a few (Orthodox) Jews express this idea as well. Some Orthodox Jews even believe in reincarnation, but not in an Eastern religious sense. That is, those who have not accomplished something of major importance, of a religious or altruistic nature, may be reincarnated to complete their life’s work here on earth. This, I suppose, reveals the major significance and focus of earthly life according to Judaism.

 

[puzzledtoo]

Meltzerboy: Thank you for sharing both of these posts 118 and 119. Interesting to read that some from the Jewish faith believe in purgatory as a cleansing(process?) and others may believe in reincarnation as well. Shalom.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

Meltzerboy:

I thank you as well. Your posts were very informative .

 

[PJM]

Hello PJM,

(“being saved from sin”.) According to the book of Acts what Jesus accomplished was bringing the Holy Ghost into the world which cleanses us from sin. That’s why the big selling point was to receive the HG. The bible verses are king James.
MT 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name
JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
MK 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they
may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be
converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
LK 1:77** To give knowledge of salvation** unto his people by the
remission of their sins,
ACTS 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort,
saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Very good

But WHAT sin’s are meant by these teachings?

In a precise sense it IS “ALL sin” John 3:5 & Mt 28: 1819-20

BUT it means ONLY [if I dare to use that word, with no intent to minimize it’s critical and ESSENTIAL significance], it means ONLY [but all] of ones sins committed prior too, before Christian BAPTISM; NOT those sins commtted AFTER a valid one time Christian Baptism

NOW what does Lk 1:117; “to give knowledge of thier salvation” mean?

There is a relavance to Purgatory and our human lives. Life IS the {A} God test:thumbsup:<<<[quoted from a prior post by PJM]

Reincarnation combined with Karma teaches that life is a learning experience as opposed to a test

So then our personal life choices do not matter at except that we "learn from them?’ …

So WHY then does humanity exist?

The difference with regards to relevance to our lives is with purgatory a person observes a “written” code of ethics. In the case of Catholicism it would be attending church, confession, saying the rosary, etc. With reincarnation/karma we view each action in terms of how it will effect our future both during this life and in future lives.

OK?

So then what is meant by these grave moral teachings?

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: **I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: **and I will be their God, and they shall be my people

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people

Continued Blessings my friend

AND what is your understanding of GOD?

Patrick

 

[PJM]

My mistake, I have to ask the Catholics again a question to understand this more clearly.

Do Catholics believe there are Saints that avoid the stage of Purgatory at all cost?

YES, as I have explained in two prior post on theis string in quite some detail

You MAY wish to look for them on this string pages 4 &5 I THINK.

Not sure of what you mean by “By all cost”; please explain further?

Blessings

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Hi PJM

I am always afraid to reply to you but I will give it a try again. [God FORBID!]/QUOTE]

THANKS sincerely!

Why, am I not charitable [GOD forbid!]

I have mainly read all your posts in this thread and I will still need to say I believe that purgatory is totally illogical, but that is not my point, I would like to respond to this specific reply of yours.

WHY God choose to [1] create man [2] create man in HIS Image: **with an immortal Soul to which is permanently attached our minds, intellects & FREEWILL
**

Because God choose to GIFT humanity with the ability to Know Him; [mind, intellect & FREEWILL] man then incurred a grave responsibility to to FREELY choose to actually KNOW God; not just know OF God; then to learn ALL that God expects and makes possible for and then accept and live according to these commands, laws & precepts

Each of us will be judged NOT on what we choose to believe; rather it will be ON what God has made POSSIBLE for each of us to know, believe and live.

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

WHERE one chooses to spend eternity, heaven or hell, is OUR life-choices; and purgatory is an ROUTE assured, BUT delayed to heaven, ALSO based out our life choices.

Secondly, how does this not sound like a point system?

Another GREAT question. THANKS

I never thought of it in that exact manner before; BUT you’re right. we MIGHT consider as such, as it is OUR FREEWILL life-choices that determine IF we get to heaven & so long as we do not dies with unconfessed, unforgiven Mortal sin; how soon after death we WILL attain the Beatific Vision.

GOD commits Himself to OFFER “sufficient grace” for everyone to be saved 1 Tim. 2:4

And it OUR life choices that make the difference. Isaiah 43: 7 & 21

Or is it more in a way that God doesn’t need any Paters or good-works, but we should do them anyway, just in case? Or they do actually help, but are not actually needed?

Regards

Here my friend is where your use of the term “NEED”, is far better replaced by words like

Desires, wants, request, requires, craves, yearns…

You’re absolutely correct in understanding that thier is no absolute NEED for God for ANYTHING man can do or offer. God is Perfect and perfectly good, and perfection cannot be improved upon.

BUT that is a minimalist attitude; and overlooks what God DESIRES

Revelation 3:16
But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

My friend, if this does not answer** your great questions**; please let me know and I’ll try again.

Purgatory exist because of God’s desire to save as many Souls as is possible; BUT God insist on a Soul being truley Perfect or perfected in order to enter into His Perfect presence; because HE HAS made such a real [but difficult] possibility.

It is a direct manifestation that accommodates HIS Love, Mercy and always also present sense of Divine Justice.

Because God has GIFTED man alone with the ability to choose good over evil. life over death; that then becomes GODS expectation for humanity.

GBY, Patrick

Ecclesiasticus 15:18
Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil will cast some of you into prison that you may be tried: and you shall have tribulation ten days [NOT an actual number ’ a “brief/ temporary time”] . Be thou faithful until death: and I will give thee the crown of life.

 

[PJM]

Hi goout.

I realised after I posted that part that maybe I should not have, as that would divert my actual intention. But anyway, let me give it a shot

Jesus is God
Jesus was sacrificed for us
Therefore God was sacrificed for us
This was a Divine sacrifice
What can possibly come from us to make this divine sacrifice better or more “valid” or whatever, hope you get my point?

Yes indeed:thumbsup:

BUT that sacrifice was by HIS intent the PATH to salvation with many potholes [sins] and
conditions.

Sacramental Baptism; Jn 3:5 & Mt 28:19-20 removes ALL SINS & all, the latent effects of sin [the Temporal punishment that GOD personally applies to all sins, even those Confessed & forgiven]; BUT the requires that humanity step up and avoid sin & Confess through Sacramental Confession JOHN 20:19-23, 1 Jn 1:8-9 & 1 Jn 5:16-17; doing so HIS WAY, in order to actually KNOW [not just guess, presume, or personally desire] that God is somehow OK with our sins and just overlooks them because we are Baptized and claim to “Believe.” … That dear friend is NOT GOD"S WAY.

Now, as I said, I have read most of this thread and posters have attempted to answer this, but I feel they failed to explain what would be “missing” from this Divine sacrifice? All I see is a load of “buts” and “excepts” and “ands”. And that’s not even taking the entire “development” into account.

What is “missing” dear friend is what GOD intended by it & through it

Sacramental Baptism and all sin and sin consequences BEFORE Sacramental Baptism is GOD’s intent.;

Because God FREELY choose to GIFT humanity with “His image” Gen 1:26-27; accomplished with an immortal Soul to which is attached a mind, intellect, and FREEWILL whereby man, and ONLY man, can choose to accept Gods OFFER of grace, to know, love, serve and OBEY Him.know, accept & believe, RATHER it will be based on what He God has made POSSIBLE for each of us to know, accept, choose and believe.

God will, because as GOD He must pass final judgment upon each of us based not on what WE choose to accept, know, believe & live; RATHER it will be based upon what He GOD has made POSSIBLE for each of to know, accept in humility, live and obey

TRUTH can ONLY be singular per defined issue. As the churches teaching on purgatory is solidly biblical in both the OT [2 Mac 12; which Luther ommitted from his version of the bible] & NT: Lev. 22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

It was Jesus Christ OUR Perfect GOD who both instituted and commanded Sacramental Confession of sins AFTER Baptism. **1 Jn 1:8-9; 1 Jn 5:16-17 & Jn 20:19-23 **are in the bible BECAUSE GOD desired them to be there to teach us what HE WANTS

I also think my original questions to your reply would need an answer for a logical understanding. It just seems to come down to a legal argument of “this without that including this but not that part of that” kind of thing that kinda missed the entire point

It is ONLY illogical to those who lack a correct understanding of God’s Divine nature; the nature of sin. and God’s desire to save as many souls as possible. Please rad my to POST replies above this one.

But that’s just my thoughts (on this) to overcome if I ever decide to become Catholic.

So my friend, permit me to ask:

Where in the bible, even one time does GOD ever show tolerance of, a desire for, any other sets of faith beliefs other than those he introduced to the Hebrew nation and then expanded and Perfected and warranted to and THROUGH His CC?

Please use this site**: drbo.org/**

to look up the following teachings; paying particular attention to the SINGULAR tense words the bible authors GUIDED by the HS used with careful forethought.

Mt 10:1-8
Mt 16:15-19
Jn 17:17-20
Mt 28:18-20
and this is but the VERY short course of the BODY evidence; historical abd biblical for the CC being the One True Church desired and founded by Christ.

God Bless and Guide you my friend:thumbsup:

Patrick

 

[superwimp]

Hello Patrick,

NOW what does Lk 1:117; “to give knowledge of their salvation” mean?<<<

This is referring to John. He baptized with water but when Jesus died people were able to be baptized by the Holy Ghost. In the book of Acts people received the HG after they were baptized. The HG cleanses us from sin.

So then our personal life choices do not matter at except that we "learn from them?’ …<<<

They matter in a temporary sense. Your actions here won’t determine how you spend eternity.

So WHY then does humanity exist?<<<

We are souls encased in temporary human bodies. The reason each of us is here can only be determined by the individual going within himself through prayer and meditation.

AND what is your understanding of GOD?<<<

My understanding of the burning bush incident is when Moses asked God what is your name he was actually asking what are you. The answer “I AM THAT I AM” means that Moses would be unable to comprehend what God is. Tell the people I AM. The I AM means that he exists. From other writings we know that God is one. I personally don’t believe that God is a being.

 

[pablope]

My mistake, I have to ask the Catholics again a question to understand this more clearly.

Do Catholics believe there are Saints that avoid the stage of Purgatory at all cost?

I would say no…we all have to undergo purgatory, one way or another.

No, those saints who you are referring to, I am assuming are those who Catholics refer to as Saints…I think they did not undergo Purgation after death…but may have had their purgation before death.

These saints probably went through the purgative state while still alive here on earth:

newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

The purgative way

The purgative way is the way, or state, of those who are beginners, that is, those who have obtained justification, but have not their passions and evil inclinations in such a state of subjugation that they can easily overcome temptations, and who, in order to preserve and exercise charity and the other virtues have to keep up a continual warfare within themselves. It is so called because the chief concern of the soul in this state is to resist and to overcome the passions by nourishing, strengthening, and cherishing the virtue of charity.

So let me ask you…do you think or consider yourself still in this purgative state?

 

[PJM]

Hello Patrick,

NOW what does Lk 1:117; “to give knowledge of their salvation” mean?<<<

**BECAUSE OF LENGTH THIS REPLY WILL BE IN 2 CONSECUTIVE POST

THIS IS PT 1 OF 2**

I think your mean Lk 1:77

Here is Haydock’s commentary

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/

"Ver. 71. That he would save us, &c. Literally, salvation from our enemies. The construction and sense is, that God, as he had declared by his prophets, would grant us salvation, or would save us. (Witham) — This is not to be understood of temporal, but of spiritual enemies. For the Lord Jesus, strong in battle, came to destroy all our enemies, and thus to deliver us from their snares and temptations. (Origen, hom. xvi.) — He is that King of Glory, the Lord strong and powerful, the Lord powerful in battle. (Psalm xxiii.)"

John the Baptist was commanded to "prepare the way of {FOR] the Lord

So John was to TEACH that the long awaited Messiah was NOW HERE!

Mark 1:3
A voice of one crying in the desert: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.

JTB here is introducing the NEWS that the LONG awaited Messiah[Jesus the Christ which means "SAVIOR] is HERE, and that [AND THIS WAS A COMPLETE SHOCK TO THOSE HE WAS SHARING THE MESSAGE TO, AS THEY EXPECTED A WARRIOR KING LIKE DAVID], and that He would be a Savior [BUT NOT THE KIND /TYPE] THEY EXPECTED. They could have, and perhaps should have recalled Isaiah 55:6-8

**[6] Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. [8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. **

So the message of that verse was 1. Introduce the Messiah 2. That He would be a different kind of savior than anticipated & perhaps desired by them?] 3. That He was actually the very Son of GOD [a completely foreign concept as they had GREAT FEAR of God, who in the OT never appeared to them in the flesh; so the fact that GOD would become a moral man [the God-man concept was still incomprehensible to them at first]

So you choose an excellent verse to delve into:thumbsup:

This is referring to John. He baptized with water but when Jesus died people were able to be baptized by the Holy Ghost. In the book of Acts people received the HG after they were baptized. The HG cleanses us from sin

So then our personal life choices do not matter at except that we "learn from them?’ …<<<{/QUOTE]

NO, not at all.

Please send me a privite message and we can discuss this further, but I don’t want to derail this THREAD. Just click on the PROFILE button at the top my CAF name is PJM

They matter in a temporary sense. Your actions here won’t determine how you spend eternity.

No it’s both now and for eternity

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart,** and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”**

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

End PART 1 OF 2 reply

 

[PJM]

Hello Patrick

this is Pt 2 of 2 REPLY

So WHY then does humanity exist?<<<

Isaiah 43: 7 & 21
[7] And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him & [21] This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise"

WHICH IS WHY in the LORDS Prayer we PRAY: "THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH [precisely] AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN [by the saints and angels

We are souls encased in temporary human bodies. The reason each of us is here can only be determined by the individual going within himself through prayer and meditation

No GOD Loves Us alot more than that

John 14:18
“I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you”

Which is precisely WHY

God with complete consistently [no variance] TEACHES that there is ONLY

One True God Exo 6:7

One True set of faith beliefs

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism. & Mt 16:18-19 & Mt 28:19-20]

One True desired, guided, guarded; protected and warranted CHURCH [please pay particular attention to the SINGULAR tense words these God inspired authors choose
1 Tim.3: 16-17

& Just One CHURCH Mt 16:18 “MY church” SINGULAR
Eph 4:4 “One Body”

Mt. 10:1-8

1. Jesus gives His 12 Apostles some of His Godly Powers Verses 1 &2
2. Send THEM [only, directly & exclusively] verses 5-8

Mt 16:18-19

1. Freely choose to “build MY Church” upon Peter & his successors [Mt 10:5-8 verses Mt 28:19-20]
2. Give to Peter & successors ALL of the Keys to His KINGDOM [heaven]
3. Warrants their teachings as being GOD approved [an exclusive] verse 20

Ephesians 2:20
Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

Jn 17:17-20

1. Jesus empowering the Apostles again directly and exclusively
   2.Jesus gives Himself as the Personal warranty of thier [and only THEM] teaching the fullness of His Truths. NO OTHER CHURCH OR FAITH CAN MAKE AND PROVE THIS CLAIM. Verse #19

Mt 28: 19-20 "YOU go teach the entire world what I [God] taught to YOU

1. Again directly, precisely & exclusively
2. “YOU GO!”
3. Teach the entire world ALL that I have TAUGHT to YOU!
4. And promises again to be with THEM [directly, precisely & exclusively until the End of Time

AND ALL OF THIS SO THAT EVERYONE COULD, CAN. SHOULD KNOW GOD’S INTENDED TEACHINGS. BUT CHOOSING ONLY ONE GOD, ONE FAITH AND ONE CHURCH Christ Knew that it would more difficult [but as Luther, Wycliffe, Calvin & and others have proven NOT impossible, for humanity to go astray.

AND what is your understanding of GOD?<<<**

One TRUE GOD Triune
“God is ALL good things perfected”

If you wish further info ask in a PM message please

My understanding of the burning bush incident is when Moses asked God what is your name he was actually asking what are you. The answer “I AM THAT I AM” means that Moses would be unable to comprehend what God is. Tell the people I AM. The I AM means that he exists. From other writings we know that God is one. I personally don’t believe that God is a being.

THAT is correct:thumbsup:

Isaiah 55:6-10 confirms that God is and intends to a major degree to remain a MYSTERY. BUT Jesus becoming Incarnate; the GOD-MAN, who IS Both true God and true and perfect man; like Us in every way except sin [with both a Divine Nature & a perfect Human nature], so that We could actually Know and have a PERSONAL relationship with GOD.

GBY! MY friend

Patrick [PJM]

 

[MichaelP3]

MichaelP3;14386663:

Hi PJM

I am always afraid to reply to you but I will give it a try again. [God FORBID!]/QUOTE]

THANKS sincerely!

Why, am I not charitable [GOD forbid!]

Not at all. No offence but you normally reply with quite a lot of writing that makes me take some time to gather the stamina to answer. I do not mean this in a bad way at all. I really respect you, considering your devotion on CAF. My grandma is your age and can’t even switch on a computer.

GREAT Question! THANKS

GOD: “ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED” can do ANY good thing. BUT then we need to ask:

Are being just and fair "good things"

Of COURSE they are; hence we can [and ought] to know that GOD then HAS to be; both Just & Fair in order to be GOD.

The unaddressed issue here is a right understanding of** Gen 1:26-27** Cf. Man is created in the VERY image of our GOD; and Jn 4:23-24 where We ARE taught that God is a “Spirit.”

THEN we need to ask:

WHY does man even exist? And the answer in in Isaiah 43: verses 7 &21

& Understanding a bit more- fully / better

The Divine Nature [God;s absolute need for Divine Justice as well as Love and Mercy

The true nature of sin** [Sacramental Confession 1 Jn 1:8-9; 1 Jn 5:16-17 & Jn 20:19-23]

WHY God choose to [1] create man [2] create man in HIS Image: **with an immortal Soul to which is permanently attached our minds, intellects & FREEWILL
**

Because God choose to GIFT humanity with the ability to Know Him; [mind, intellect & FREEWILL] man then incurred a grave responsibility to to FREELY choose to actually KNOW God; not just know OF God; then to learn ALL that God expects and makes possible for and then accept and live according to these commands, laws & precepts

Each of us will be judged NOT on what we choose to believe; rather it will be ON what God has made POSSIBLE for each of us to know, believe and live.

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

WHERE one chooses to spend eternity, heaven or hell, is OUR life-choices; and purgatory is an ROUTE assured, BUT delayed to heaven, ALSO based out our life choices.

I really appreciate your response, but it still doesn’t answer if God needs it? I know we touch on this later in my post. But even if we assume “works” are needed and even purgatory exists? I don’t see any point that God needs/does not need any of it?

Another GREAT question. THANKS

I never thought of it in that exact …

GOD commits Himself to OFFER “sufficient grace” for everyone to be saved 1 Tim. 2:4

And it OUR life choices that make the difference. Isaiah 43: 7 & 21

I am sorry but I can not see where you answered my question?

You said originally “But NOT to worry; GOD will take all excess praters and good-works and apply them to another Soul in need of them”. This still sounds like a point system. Something like “So we had 3 extra Paters since John went to heaven, we can apply them to Anne or Sofia, but only 3, as no more have been said since then”. I replied to the logic of this. Please elaborate on that?

Here my friend is where your use of the term “NEED”, is far better replaced by words like

Desires, wants, request, requires, craves, yearns…

You’re absolutely correct in understanding that thier is no absolute NEED for God for ANYTHING man can do or offer. God is Perfect and perfectly good, and perfection cannot be improved upon.

BUT that is a minimalist attitude; and overlooks what God DESIRES

Revelation 3:16
But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

My friend, if this does not answer** your great questions**; please let me know and I’ll try again.

Purgatory exist because of God’s desire to save as many Souls as is possible; BUT God insist on a Soul being truley Perfect or perfected in order to enter into His Perfect presence; because HE HAS made such a real [but difficult] possibility.

It is a direct manifestation that accommodates HIS Love, Mercy and always also present sense of Divine Justice.

Because God has GIFTED man alone with the ability to choose good over evil. life over death; that then becomes GODS expectation for humanity.

GBY, Patrick

Ecclesiasticus 15:18
Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil will cast some of you into prison that you may be tried: and you shall have tribulation ten days [NOT an actual number ’ a “brief/ temporary time”] . Be thou faithful until death: and I will give thee the crown of life.

Does it really? God can desire whatever He wants, just like He “needs” something. Would His desire change the “need”. God may desire a Pater or an act of charity, but would that affect His need/decision?

I am sorry but I do not feel my questions were addressed. I feel like I need to search for your actual reply in between everything. Let’s even say I believe purgatory is a thing, my original reply was to a conundrum within the purgatory belief. That is rather my original question?

That was this “But NOT to worry; GOD will take all excess praters and good-works and apply them to another Soul in need of them”

Explain this to me more fully in light of my questions? How it makes sense and why you say so?

Regards

 

[mark_a]

Back to the op, the reason is much like Paschal’s wager.

 

[spedteacherita]

Why my friends, do you suppose that Catholics believe in Purgatory?

GBY

Patrick

Bear with me as I did not read the whole thread. This is my reaction to the question and it very well could have already addressed.

I don’t understand why one would believe in a place like purgatory when Christ made the ultimate sacrifice as the Lamb of God to atone us for our sins. This doesn’t mean we won’t sin anymore but we must go to Him for our daily, hourly, even minute by minute forgiveness for the things we do wrong. Christ stands as an advocate for us to the Father. His blood covers us as he is the expiation for our sin. Thank God for Christ’s sacrifice because there can be nothing I do that would allow me to deserve a place in heaven. I pray that the Holy Spirit uses me to do the fruits of the Spirit through my daily life as a Christian.

 

[PJM]

PJM;14390142:

Not at all. No offence but you normally reply with quite a lot of writing that makes me take some time to gather the stamina to answer. I do not mean this in a bad way at all. I really respect you, considering your devotion on CAF. My grandma is your age and can’t even switch on a computer.

THANKS so very much

I’m a 2 finger typist and by NO means a GEEK myself

I really appreciate your response, but it still doesn’t answer if God needs it? I know we touch on this later in my post. But even if we assume “works” are needed and even purgatory exists? I don’t see any point that God needs/does not need any of it?

NO, GOD “does NOT need it”; BUT WE , you & me and all of us might or DO. WHY

Because God IS PERFECT, He is unwilling [because He makes OUR perfection Possible in multiple ways [grace, the 7 sacraments, prayers,charity, good works, Indulgences, and suffering offered up to Him] to permit anything less than a Perfect Soul or a perfected soul [which is what Purgatory accomplishes]

1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Because God makes perfection possible both here on earth and even in death WHEN we die without ANY unconfessed & unforgiven Mortal sins.

1 Jn 5:16-17MEANING HERE A MORTAL SIN SIN & SPIRITUAL DEATH] let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto [ETERNAL SPIRITUAL HELL] death

Jn 20:1-23
And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

I am sorry but I can not see where you answered my question?

Don’t be I’m the teacher, and it’s up to Me to explain it so that you may understand it.

You said originally “But NOT to worry; GOD will take all excess prayers and good-works and apply them to another Soul in need of them”. This still sounds like a point system. Something like “So we had 3 extra Payers since John went to heaven, we can apply them to Anne or Sofia, but only 3, as no more have been said since then”. I replied to the logic of this. Please elaborate on that?

Thank YOU!

Sometimes I ASSUME too much:blush:

[1] Can do too much, or pray too much

[2] That any MERIT we may acquire for ourselves IF, if, not needed for our own souls, will be used by God for others in need.

[3] While here on earth we can ASK God to GRANT the merits of our prayers, charity, sacrifices, good-works either for OURSELVES, or for OTHERS who MAY be ??] in Purgatory.

Doing so for Souls in either Heaven or Hell are of no practicle use to them; SO God will take these merits and apply them to a Soul that can benefit from their good, so the other point I was trying to make is:

ALL of our good goes to benefit ourselves OR other souls is need.

Does it really? God can desire whatever He wants, just like He “needs” something. Would His desire change the “need”. God may desire a Pater or an act of charity, but would that affect His need/decision?

WOW, that’s profound! THANKS!

God who can be briefly described as "ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED"

Because God is and CAN ONLY BE Perfect; God in an absolute sense has NO “needs”; yet God does have “desires” that do not literally affect Him, except that they PLEASE Him, but cannot CHANGE Him.

I am sorry but I do not feel my questions were addressed. I feel like I need to search for your actual reply in between everything. Let’s even say I believe purgatory is a thing, my original reply was to a conundrum within the purgatory belief. That is rather my original question?

Again my fault, not yours.

hat was this “But NOT to worry; GOD will take all excess praters and good-works and apply them to another Soul in need of them”

Explain this to me more fully in light of my questions? How it makes sense and why you say so?
Regards

1 Because GOD is and can only be PERFECT

2 God is willing to ONLY tolerate perfection in His Divine Presence

3 God makes our Souls Perfection Possible as explained above eariler so His expectation of OUR own perfection then is Just and Fair [good]

4 Because humanity & ONLY humanity] emulates God with a Mind, Intellect and Freewill [Gen, 1:26-27], seeking our OWN perfection becomes the very reason we even exist Isaiah 43: 7 & 21 and ought t be our lives goal

5 GOD Offers SUFFICIENT GRACE [which can be, and is often is denied] GR to make everyone’s salvation true and real possibility

6 Anything & everything We freely choose to do can actually or literally NOT benefit God in any way; all we can do is choose to Please God or displease [hate] God

7 God is immutable

8 Purgatory exist as a manifestation of GOD"S completely unnecessary [for HIM] Mercy and Love and ONLY can, and ONLY does in anyway benefit Souls that have merited Purgatory; BUT were not yet PERFECT, as is required by God’s Justice for Heaven
1 Tim. 2:4 as quoted eariler

9 Purgatory exist ONLY in that it pleases GOD"S Goodness [HIS INNATE DIVINE NATURE] and desire that as many as possible Souls attain the Beatific Vision

10 Purgatory is a GODLY GIFT founded on Divine & PERFECT Love

Hope this answers your GREAT Questions, if not please ask again

God Bless you
Patrick

 

[PJM]

Bear with me as I did not read the whole thread. This is my reaction to the question and it very well could have already addressed.

I don’t understand why one would believe in a place like purgatory when Christ made the ultimate sacrifice as the Lamb of God to atone us for our sins. This doesn’t mean we won’t sin anymore but we must go to Him for our daily, hourly, even minute by minute forgiveness for the things we do wrong. Christ stands as an advocate for us to the Father. His blood covers us as he is the expiation for our sin. Thank God for Christ’s sacrifice because there can be nothing I do that would allow me to deserve a place in heaven. I pray that the Holy Spirit uses me to do the fruits of the Spirit through my daily life as a Christian.

So now a two part question [THANKS for putting up with them]

[1] As a LDS HOW are one’s sins forgiven and on what basis?

As to your position that “their is nothing we can do to deserve heaven”

[2] WHY THEN in the BILLIONS of Cfeated things in the Universe, does humanity ALONE, have a Mind, Intellect and FREEWILL? [To what end?]

GBY

Patrick