Why does Anglican-rite liturgy attract so many Catholics?

[boatbearer]

For the last 20 or so years, I have held a professional position in the choir of an Episcopal church. Week after week, I’ve heard the elegant language of the Book of Common Prayer and admired it. The minute a TAC parish in my city becomes an Anglican Use parish, I’ll be there for Mass. ** I cannot wait for this beautiful liturgy to find completion in the Catholic Church.** Cannot wait!!

Betsy

It has some years ago with the Book of Divine Worship as used by Latin Rite Catholics who take advantage of the Anglican-use provision:

atonementonline.com/bodw.php

 

[Anatolian]

yes, the rule is that Anglicans cannot accept new members from the Latin Rite. i’m just curious if a Latin Rite Catholic who was formerly an Anglican, if he can switch back when TAC achieves full communion. maybe i missed it in the document

***Thanx…that is a pretty interesting question,indeed! ***

 

[Anatolian]

Considering there are under 10 parishes in the States that even offer it, I would agree. The AU Mass is very beautiful, though…mostly, in my opinion, because of the truly superior music.

**Thanx…that is a pretty interesting question,indeed! This link is very helpful catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/10/anglican-use-liturgy-should-become.html **

 

[cecilia97]

Thanx…that is a pretty interesting question,indeed! This link is very helpful catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/10/anglican-use-liturgy-should-become.html

Sorry…I’m confused, did I ask a question?

 

[Anatolian]

Sorry…I’m confused, did I ask a question?

lol sorry i mean is Anglican church music really superior to the Roman?

 

[BernadetteM]

There are few Catholics including priests that are aware of the Anglican Use. The reason there are so few is that just as the Bishops have not allowed the TLM in many dioceses, they would not allow the Anglican Use parishes.

Things will be changing as soon as the Ordinariates are established for Anglicans coming into the Church. The Ordinary will be over the Ordinariates not the Bishops. They will deal directly with the CFD.

Since the Anglican Use is also Latin Rite, Latin Rite Catholics will at some point be able to register in the parish. They already do in the established Anglican Use parishes.

Try to think about the Anglican Use Liturgy as just another liturgy within the Latin Rite i.e. OF and EF.

No one knows how many will decide to come to Rome, but it might be small in the beginning but I believe in time, only God knows how long, there will be Anglican Use parishes in every diocese.

The AU liturgy is not quite what the first priests wanted, but with so many more coming and it being worldwide the liturgy will be changed. The Canon of the Mass, Rite I is the Sarum Use, which is very much like the Roman Rite I.

I think it will fill a void for many Catholics who are not happy with the OF but don’t want the EF either. It is very reverent, wonderful music and very orthodox. Our Lady of Atonement offers a Latin Mass on Sunday evening. They have grown from 18 members to around 2000.

The Holy Father from what he has said seems very impressed with the Anglican Use/ Pastoral Provsion, he said they will be bringing their treasures into the Church. It is a shame that like the TLM/EF they have been hindered by the Bishops.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[choy]

There are few Catholics including priests that are aware of the Anglican Use. The reason there are so few is that just as the Bishops have not allowed the TLM in many dioceses, they would not allow the Anglican Use parishes.

can you cite a specific instance where a bishop does not allow the celebration of the Mass in the Extraordinary Form? i know that for the EF to be celebrated there has to be a priest who is qualified to do so. perhaps bishops have denied EF celebrations on this ground (no one is qualified in the diocese) rather than denying because they don’t want the EF

Things will be changing as soon as the Ordinariates are established for Anglicans coming into the Church. The Ordinary will be over the Ordinariates not the Bishops. They will deal directly with the CFD.

Since the Anglican Use is also Latin Rite, Latin Rite Catholics will at some point be able to register in the parish. They already do in the established Anglican Use parishes.

Anglicanorum Coetibus specifically states that Latin Rite Catholics cannot join Anglican Use parishes. however, they may freely attend the Mass

Try to think about the Anglican Use Liturgy as just another liturgy within the Latin Rite i.e. OF and EF.

No one knows how many will decide to come to Rome, but it might be small in the beginning but I believe in time, only God knows how long, there will be Anglican Use parishes in every diocese.

currently, all TAC parishes in the US, Canada and Australia have applied for Full Communion. the list can be seen in their respective websites of those parishes. there’s not a lot. for example here in Vancouver, there’s only one TAC parish. parishioners may also decide not to join the parish into the Catholic Church, and move to a mainstream Anglican Church. although i doubt that would happen because the TAC has not been part of the Anglican Communion for quite a while

The AU liturgy is not quite what the first priests wanted, but with so many more coming and it being worldwide the liturgy will be changed. The Canon of the Mass, Rite I is the Sarum Use, which is very much like the Roman Rite I.

I think it will fill a void for many Catholics who are not happy with the OF but don’t want the EF either. It is very reverent, wonderful music and very orthodox. Our Lady of Atonement offers a Latin Mass on Sunday evening. They have grown from 18 members to around 2000.

The Holy Father from what he has said seems very impressed with the Anglican Use/ Pastoral Provsion, he said they will be bringing their treasures into the Church. It is a shame that like the TLM/EF they have been hindered by the Bishops.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

hhmmm… again can you site references to such claim? as i’ve read from the TAC website, they’ve already sent their applications to the Vatican for full communion. so i don’t see how individual bishops can block that. if you’re talking about simply the Anglican Use Mass, perhaps the reason again is that there is no qualified priest to say the Mass in the diocese, or the number of people requesting just aren’t enough

 

[boatbearer]

…The AU liturgy is not quite what the first priests wanted, but with so many more coming and it being worldwide the liturgy will be changed. The Canon of the Mass, Rite I is the Sarum Use, which is very much like the Roman Rite I…

The liturgy isn’t about to be changed. What makes you think it would be changed?

The Anglican Book of Common Prayer has already been tweaked for orthodoxy rendering the Book of Divine Worship. It’s a done deal.

 

[ProVobis]

The liturgy isn’t about to be changed. What makes you think it would be changed?

See post #11.

 

[MarkBrown]

interesting situation. i wonder if you’ll be allowed to formally join the Anglican parish being a former Episcopalian, or would the fact that you have been a Catholic for quite some time disqualify you from moving to their parish?

According the the AC and Norms, Besty and her family can join an AU parish once the
ordinariate is established. If she was an Episcopalian, she was an Anglican.

Anglicans in the States prior to the fracturing in the 1970’s were called Episcopalians. Many of the groups who left the Episcopal Church began reverting to back to the name Anglican. We were called Anglicans before the Revolution, afterwards Episcopalians. Also it is used to show the various Anglican Groups are not in communion or affliated with the Episcopal Church.

Fr.Mark

 

[MarkBrown]

Agreed! I have not heard of that many people drawn to the Anglican-Use Rite. The Extraordinary Form however is another story.

The Anglican-Use within the Church is a well hidden. If you think the Latin Mass has run into resistence from local Bishops, talk to AU priests and those who want an AU Mass.
Up until the announcement of the Ordinariate, there was no pipeline for replacement priests. If a man sought vocation as a priest from an AU parish, he had not choice but to go into the “Latin” Rite. There are not seminaries setup to teach Anglican Use. No classes. Bishops, as I said earlier, are in many cases overtly against and hostile to setting up AU parishes.

when an AU parish loses a priest due to age. he is not replaced with an AU priest, but with a priest trained in a normal Catholic seminary. The parish ceases to be AU. Now thats if an AU parish can even be established. Everyday we in the process of seeking communion with Rome through the ordinariate recieve calls or personally know of Anglican clergy and laity who have converted to Rome prior. Who wanted to establish an AU parish and the Bishops refused. Part of the reason the Ordinariate is to be established is to counter this environment. ArchBishop Gomez of L.A. is supportive. Those in L.A. who were denied under the last Archbishop, can now approach this current one and find someone who friendly and helpful.

So past performance is not an indication of future development.

Fr. Mark

 

[MarkBrown]

I’ve never been Episcopalian - just worked for them, and still do. From my reading of the rules, I don’t think I’ll be able to join a parish, but I will be able to attend Mass at one whenever I wish.

Betsy

Besty,

in a prior post I assumed you were Episcopalian prior to Catholic. Sorry for the assumption.

As a “cradle” Catholic we will not be able to join. You can attend an AU parish once established. If you sing in an Episcopal choir, understand the AU priest will do whatever it takes to get you into the AU parish choir. I think the perferred method today is DucTape! Joking aside, you would be a wonderful asset as you know Anglican Hymns and music.

An AU parish, Our Lady of the Atonement, check them out on the web. They have posted an Evening Song service. The choir is beautiful. It is their 7-8 grade Girls Middle School Choir. Anglican Children singing the Hymns and Psalms. I thought they were adults until I talked with Fr. Phillips.

Fr. Mark

 

[Contarini]

Two different but related issues. Pope Leo declared Anglican orders from the time of Edward onward to be “absolutely null and utterly void” which also means that there is no Eucharist, but he did not directly address the issue of the texts or rite used when Anglicans remember the Lord’s Supper–at least not in any length. He did somewhat, but that wasn’t the specific subject of his decree. Since no priest necessarily means no Mass, there has never been a need to address the issue of whether or not Anglican ritual could be valid. At the present time, though, the Anglican text needs only minor modifications to be a valid Mass–so the ritual itself can be valid.

Actually the current Anglican Use liturgy substitutes the Eucharistic prayers of the standard Roman Rite (Extraordinary Form for Rite I; Ordinary Form for Rite II, if I’m not mistaken) for those of the 1979 American BCP. I do not believe that there is any parish currently in full communion with Rome that uses an Anglican Eucharistic Prayer. However, the Western Rite Orthodox do have a Eucharistic Prayer based on Cranmer’s (as revised in the 1928 American BCP, I believe) with modifications to make it Orthodox. And since Rome acknowledges the Orders of the Orthodox, I suppose that logically implies that an Anglican Eucharistic Prayer could be valid with fairly minor modifications.

It remains to be seen just what liturgy will be used in the new Ordinariates.

Edwin

 

[OraLabora]

Try to think about the Anglican Use Liturgy as just another liturgy within the Latin Rite i.e. OF and EF.

People always forget to also add the Ambrosian liturgy when discussing different forms of the Latin Rite.

Not to mention the slightly different liturgy in the OF Roman Right when the Roman Gradual is used for the music (e.g. responsorial psalm replaced by the gradual hymn).

 

[MarkBrown]

actually the TAC in the US, Canada and Australia have applied for full communion. it is the Bishops of the said territories that have applied for full communion so they’re taking all their parishes with them. TAC is not part of the mainstream Anglican Communion, so none of those mainstream Anglican parishes are switching over. and i highly doubt it because most of those in the Anglican Communion have become liberal (women and gay priests, etc) that it would take a lot of them to accept all Catholic teachings. the TAC Bishops however has stated they accept everything in the CCC and are ready for full communion

the only issue will be the reordination of the priests, and the bishops who are married will no longer qualify to be bishops and would have to become priests, but given authority over the Anglican parishes and diocese as if they were Bishops in some matters (administrative but perhaps not doctrinal)

Choy,

I had a friend of mine in the US Marine Corps named Choy. Longshot, ever serve in 1/6 Marines?

Sorry for the aside. Choy, Anglican canons and by laws are not like those of the Catholic Church. Anglicanism has deep veins of congregationalism running through it. Though the Bishops have said yes, each parish now has to vote to accept what the Bishop has said.
Anglicans can and will “Bishop” shop. Don’t like what your Bishop says, go find another one. Jumping for jurisdiction to jurisdiction is normal. Example from person experience.
I was in the United Episcopal Church North American (UECNA) and was ordained a Deacon by a Bishop in the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) for the UECNA. They are in communion with each other. The new Anglican Church, Anglican Church North America was being formed in 2009. ArchBishop Duncan, the break aways from the TEC etc. My Rector, remember UECNA, wanted to discuss joining it. Our ArchBishop refused. Short story, we opposed the ArchBishop, found a Bishop who supported it, voted and joined the Reformed Episcopal Church which is part of the ACNA.

Submission to authority will be the hardest thing facing Anglicans. Look at every Anglican jurisdiction. Read the last verse of the Book of Judges.

In another post on another thread I posted some severe problems with the TAC in the States. 3 of the 4 Ordinaries are either openly or not so openly working against Communion. The website The AngloCatholic documents this betrayal. These three Bishops lied to their Archbishop, fellow Bishops, priest and laity and lied to Rome about many things.

Catholics maybe shocked at this. You should be. We Anglicans…just old hat for us our Bishops acting like this. But they applied back in March you say. Yes, the three did under false pretense. They never intended to seek communion. So the ACA in the States is taking stock. Bishop Campese in Orlando is faithful to his vows and it is hoped those priests and parishes will be able to rally around him. Please pray for him and all the priest and laity who are seeking Communion with the Chair of Peter.

Just because a Bishop has “changed his mind” and now says no. His parishes are not obligated to now say no. They can vote to still enter the Ordinariate.

Also understand, not just the ACA/TAC is seeking Communion. There are many parishes and priests from all the different groupings (REC, EMC, ACNA, CEC, ACC for example)seeking Communion with Rome. I know of priests who have been told to stay put by Rome and men such as Bishop Campese until the Ordinariate is established. The ACA is to whom Rome responded. Others are responding to Rome.

Anglicanism is this chaotic for we are without the Rock upon which Christ built His Church.

Fr. Mark

 

[FrDavid96]

Actually the current Anglican Use liturgy substitutes the Eucharistic prayers of the standard Roman Rite (Extraordinary Form for Rite I; Ordinary Form for Rite II, if I’m not mistaken) for those of the 1979 American BCP. I do not believe that there is any parish currently in full communion with Rome that uses an Anglican Eucharistic Prayer. However, the Western Rite Orthodox do have a Eucharistic Prayer based on Cranmer’s (as revised in the 1928 American BCP, I believe) with modifications to make it Orthodox. And since Rome acknowledges the Orders of the Orthodox, I suppose that logically implies that an Anglican Eucharistic Prayer could be valid with fairly minor modifications.

It remains to be seen just what liturgy will be used in the new Ordinariates.

Edwin

Edwin,
The Church doesn’t just “imply” that a modified Anglican ritual could be valid–this is directly stated. It’s a given that there are already Anglican Catholic priests celebrating valid and licit Masses using missal(s) approved by the Holy See. The future Anglican Catholic ordinariates will use either these existing missals, or ones that might be approved in the future. There’s no question that the texts themselves can be valid with only slight modifications.

In my post, I was making a distinction between the issues of valid orders and a valid Mass-text because there seemed to be a slight confusion between those two issues.

 

[MarkBrown]

can you cite a specific instance where a bishop does not allow the celebration of the Mass in the Extraordinary Form? i know that for the EF to be celebrated there has to be a priest who is qualified to do so. perhaps bishops have denied EF celebrations on this ground (no one is qualified in the diocese) rather than denying because they don’t want the EF

Anglicanorum Coetibus specifically states that Latin Rite Catholics cannot join Anglican Use parishes. however, they may freely attend the Mass

currently, all TAC parishes in the US, Canada and Australia have applied for Full Communion. the list can be seen in their respective websites of those parishes. there’s not a lot. for example here in Vancouver, there’s only one TAC parish. parishioners may also decide not to join the parish into the Catholic Church, and move to a mainstream Anglican Church. although i doubt that would happen because the TAC has not been part of the Anglican Communion for quite a while

hhmmm… again can you site references to such claim? as i’ve read from the TAC website, they’ve already sent their applications to the Vatican for full communion. so i don’t see how individual bishops can block that. if you’re talking about simply the Anglican Use Mass, perhaps the reason again is that there is no qualified priest to say the Mass in the diocese, or the number of people requesting just aren’t enough

Choy,

If I am not mistaken, BernadetteM lived though just what she talked about. So the reference is herself. If I have not confused her with another former Anglican on this forum who sought to be with an AU parish in California and Bishop Mahoney blocked the establishment of such a parish.

Contact Fr. Phillips of Our Lady of the Atonement. He pastors the largest AU parish in the country. He lived throught it also and can document established AU parishes when their priest retired were absorbed into the N.O. Due to no established seminaries or even the allowance of men in vocations to seek to be trained as AU priests.

The Ordinariate was established by the Holy Father due to the history of local Bishops blocking AU parishes and conversions. Not only here, but in England also. Fr. Dwight Longnecker was a CoE priest who converted. He had to search for a Bishop to sponsor him and even just talk with him about ordination. He now lives in South Carolina. I personally know of an Anglican Priest who was ordained by a Catholic jurisdiction which Rome views their orders as valid but illicit. From South America. He has approached 17 Catholic Bishops wanting to go through the process of discernment. All 17 have rejected him. He is hopeful the Ordinariate and the Ordinary will review and discern with him.

My examples are all AU. All related to me by the people who experienced the events.
There was a pastoral provision umbrella group created to help protestant clergy find Bishops who were supportive due to the opposition of so many local Bishops.

Now as to the TLM. The best source for any opposition by local Bishops,if it exist, would probably be the Traditional Forum of Catholic Answers. If there are examples they may be found there, I would think.

Fr. Mark

 

[FrDavid96]

oh, my apologies, i understood your statement differently

i was chatting with another person here at CAF who was a former Anglican and i posed the same question to him. yes, the rule is that Anglicans cannot accept new members from the Latin Rite. i’m just curious if a Latin Rite Catholic who was formerly an Anglican, if he can switch back when TAC achieves full communion. maybe i missed it in the document

This seems to be one of those “open questions”

Here’s what the norms say

Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus
Article I §4 The Ordinariate is composed of lay faithful, clerics and members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, originally belonging to the Anglican Communion and now in full communion with the Catholic Church, or those who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate. adoremus.org/AnglicanorumCoetibus.html

Complementary Norms
Article 5 §1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate. adoremus.org/CDF_AnglicanorumCoetibus.html

Keep in mind that the complementary norms are an addendum meant to clarify the original Constitution, so the complementary norms won’t necessarily address every question, only those needing some clarification.

It seems to me, from my reading of the constitution, that former Anglicans who have already become Catholic will be eligible for membership in the new ordinariate, so long as they were “originally belonging to the Anglican Communion.” I think this is especially true since we already have some (granted, very few) Anglican-use Catholic parishes (or quasi-parishes) today. I cannot imagine that these existing parishes will be excluded from the future ordinariates, as that would just not make any sense.

Even some Latin-rite Catholics will be eligible for membership, but in limited circumstances–if that person’s family is enrolled in the ordinariate. An obvious example that comes to mind would be a present-day Catholic married to a present-day Anglican; if the Anglican joins the ordinariate, so too can the Catholic spouse, even if the spouse has no other connection to Anglicanism.

Edit: The reason why I say it’s still an “open question” is that we can all imagine some very realistic scenarios which do not fit neatly into the norms.

 

[FrDavid96]

Choy,

If I am not mistaken, BernadetteM lived though just what she talked about. So the reference is herself. If I have not confused her with another former Anglican on this forum who sought to be with an AU parish in California and Bishop Mahoney blocked the establishment of such a parish.

Contact Fr. Phillips of Our Lady of the Atonement. He pastors the largest AU parish in the country. He lived throught it also and can document established AU parishes when their priest retired were absorbed into the N.O. Due to no established seminaries or even the allowance of men in vocations to seek to be trained as AU priests.

The Ordinariate was established by the Holy Father due to the history of local Bishops blocking AU parishes and conversions. Not only here, but in England also. Fr. Dwight Longnecker was a CoE priest who converted. He had to search for a Bishop to sponsor him and even just talk with him about ordination. He now lives in South Carolina. I personally know of an Anglican Priest who was ordained by a Catholic jurisdiction which Rome views their orders as valid but illicit. From South America. He has approached 17 Catholic Bishops wanting to go through the process of discernment. All 17 have rejected him. He is hopeful the Ordinariate and the Ordinary will review and discern with him.

My examples are all AU. All related to me by the people who experienced the events.
There was a pastoral provision umbrella group created to help protestant clergy find Bishops who were supportive due to the opposition of so many local Bishops.

Now as to the TLM. The best source for any opposition by local Bishops,if it exist, would probably be the Traditional Forum of Catholic Answers. If there are examples they may be found there, I would think.

Fr. Mark

The good news is that with the coming ordinariates, it will be very difficult for a local bishop to outright block a new Anglican-Catholic parish. Yes, he will have the authority to do so, but exercising that authority will be hard to justify, especially since the new ordinaries can act as advocates for these potential parishes. I rather doubt that any bishop would want to be in a situation where an Anglican Ordinary is forced to appeal to Rome because a local Ordinary “doesn’t want” an Anglican parish within his diocese. There is a certain irony here in that the very opposition to Anglican parishes is what brought (at least in part) the new norms to provide for those parishes.

 

[choy]

Choy,

I had a friend of mine in the US Marine Corps named Choy. Longshot, ever serve in 1/6 Marines?

nope, sorry. i’m a Filipino living in Canada, no way would i be in the US Marine Corps

Sorry for the aside. Choy, Anglican canons and by laws are not like those of the Catholic Church. Anglicanism has deep veins of congregationalism running through it. Though the Bishops have said yes, each parish now has to vote to accept what the Bishop has said.
Anglicans can and will “Bishop” shop. Don’t like what your Bishop says, go find another one. Jumping for jurisdiction to jurisdiction is normal. Example from person experience.
I was in the United Episcopal Church North American (UECNA) and was ordained a Deacon by a Bishop in the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) for the UECNA. They are in communion with each other. The new Anglican Church, Anglican Church North America was being formed in 2009. ArchBishop Duncan, the break aways from the TEC etc. My Rector, remember UECNA, wanted to discuss joining it. Our ArchBishop refused. Short story, we opposed the ArchBishop, found a Bishop who supported it, voted and joined the Reformed Episcopal Church which is part of the ACNA.

Submission to authority will be the hardest thing facing Anglicans. Look at every Anglican jurisdiction. Read the last verse of the Book of Judges.

In another post on another thread I posted some severe problems with the TAC in the States. 3 of the 4 Ordinaries are either openly or not so openly working against Communion. The website The AngloCatholic documents this betrayal. These three Bishops lied to their Archbishop, fellow Bishops, priest and laity and lied to Rome about many things.

Catholics maybe shocked at this. You should be. We Anglicans…just old hat for us our Bishops acting like this. But they applied back in March you say. Yes, the three did under false pretense. They never intended to seek communion. So the ACA in the States is taking stock. Bishop Campese in Orlando is faithful to his vows and it is hoped those priests and parishes will be able to rally around him. Please pray for him and all the priest and laity who are seeking Communion with the Chair of Peter.

Just because a Bishop has “changed his mind” and now says no. His parishes are not obligated to now say no. They can vote to still enter the Ordinariate.

Also understand, not just the ACA/TAC is seeking Communion. There are many parishes and priests from all the different groupings (REC, EMC, ACNA, CEC, ACC for example)seeking Communion with Rome. I know of priests who have been told to stay put by Rome and men such as Bishop Campese until the Ordinariate is established. The ACA is to whom Rome responded. Others are responding to Rome.

Anglicanism is this chaotic for we are without the Rock upon which Christ built His Church.

Fr. Mark

good info, thanks