Why does Anglican-rite liturgy attract so many Catholics?

[OraLabora]

I’ll tell you a bit about my experience. I’ve sung in an Episcopal church choir (as a non-parishioner employee) since 1988. I have also sung as a cantor (both paid and volunteer) at several Catholic parishes since the mid-70’s, doing Sunday Masses, weddings and funerals.

Admittedly, the Catholic parishes where I have sung have not been “mainstream” musically. The music directors were and are professionally trained organists and choirmasters who tend to use more traditional music. One of the parishes has a choir of men and boys that performs at a very high level. That parish, for a period beginning in the 70’s, had paid cantors and paid section leaders in the choir. The parish where I am now has a music director who recently graduated with a degree in liturgy and music from a prestigious university. The choir is about half professional. Much of their repertoire is similar to what we do at the Episcopal parish.

Needless to say, I’ve been spoiled in the Catholic parishes I’ve belonged to. When I visit other parishes, sometimes I just sit with my mouth open, thankful for what I have.

In the Episcopal parish, we have a *full-time *music director with a long resume of high-profile positions all around the country. When he retires, there will be a nationwide search for a replacement that will rival the search for a new rector. We have up to 8 professionals in the choir, two in each voice part serving as soloist/section leaders. Right now, we don’t have a full complement of professional singers, but if the right people came along, they would be hired. I’m the only professional alto at the moment, the other having retired after almost 25 years in the position. The other singers are volunteers, many of whom could very well serve in the professional positions but choose not to because of other obligations. A number are physicians - lots of doctors are high-level musicians - very interesting. We usually have 40 to 45 members in all.

Interestingly, the Episcopal parish tried out a contemporary music group of teenagers for a few years. They did not last, and now the teen singers are part of the regular choir and very happy there. There is a contemporary group now composed mainly of aging baby boomers, which is not very popular beyond its actual membership, according to parish surveys. There are about 10 of them. They sing the contemporary style service each week, and in the regular service once a month or so. They used to sing more often, until the survey results came out.

Our choir sings classical music from all periods. We do Palestrina, Tallis and Byrd, Bach, Mozart, Haydn & Handel, Mendelssohn & Brahms and other older composers. We do lots of English music - Elgar, Wood, Stanford, Britten, Howells, and more contemporary English works by Richard Shephard, Robert Lehman, Grayston Ives, John Rutter and others. Every year we do a “special music” presentation. Two years ago it was the Brahms Requiem with full orchestra. Last year, the Mozart Vespers. I think it’s to be Dvorak this year. We have a small group of singers who do Evensongs throughout the year. We just finished a six-year project of singing the Bach motets, one per year. This year, we’re going to bring them all out for a reprise.

So, to answer the question in the quote … ah, yes. At least in my experience.

Betsy

Sounds heavenly. I sing in a schola that does Gregorian chant, we rotate around parishes once a month (we’re on summer recess now). I am also Oblate of, and attend Sunday Mass, at a Benedictine abbey nearby. The Mass is in Gregorian chant (propers and Kyriale) and the rest is chanted in French plainchant, even the readings are chanted. It is wonderful. The principal organist, who is also the abbott, is an accomplished musician having won many prizes. We too are spoiled. Our choirmaster was choirmaster at Solesmes for a few years, and the abbey’s schola is very good indeed.

 

[baltobetsy]

Sounds heavenly. I sing in a schola that does Gregorian chant, we rotate around parishes once a month (we’re on summer recess now). I am also Oblate of, and attend Sunday Mass, at a Benedictine abbey nearby. The Mass is in Gregorian chant (propers and Kyriale) and the rest is chanted in French plainchant, even the readings are chanted. It is wonderful. The principal organist, who is also the abbott, is an accomplished musician having won many prizes. We too are spoiled. Our choirmaster was choirmaster at Solesmes for a few years, and the abbey’s schola is very good indeed.

Lucky you to have found such a place of beauty. My college choir specialized in chant - that was really great to sing. Wow - Solesmes!

Betsy

 

[jordananglo]

You either did not read the links that I posted earlier in this thread, or did not understand them. The bishops of only ONE member church of the TAC, the Anglican Church of America (ACA) requested that an ordinariate be established. And they specifically state in the Q&A:…Hence, as I posted, it will be played out on a diocese-by-diocese and parish-by-parish basis. The “discernment” spoken of in the document is a nice way of saying that there will be major disagreements on the matter. The news media was absolutely irresponsible in making this clear.

This is true, but care must be taken here. It is now public that there will some that enter the Ordinariate and some that will not within the ACA. Of course, this was expected all along for those that know something about the situation. The question now is how many will enter. Evidently, the criterion for entire parishes entering immediately will be quite high, (2/3 or 3/4 vote by parish by-laws), so there will be likely only a few immediately. On the other hand, there will be members in most parishes that will have to start over in an Ordinariate mission. They will have to rely on the good will and help of the local Catholic diocese to help them get started. I think that once a first wave goes over and gets the Ordinariate set up, that this will show the plan is viable and form a visible entity, not just a theoretical body, that a larger second wave will come over in time.

It is also important to remember that the ACA is not the only game in town. There will be clergy and laity entering from most every Anglican jurisdiction. In my own experience, it is already drawing the interest of other Christians from other protestant bodies that are also interested in becoming Catholics.

Also, the ACA is only one part of the Traditional Anglican Communion; which is a federation independent Continuing Anglican Churches, each with its own bishops. The bishops of one one member church, the ACA, and not the entire TAC, made this request. And support for reception into the Catholic Church runs much higher amoing clergy than laity of this body.

What you say is true about the U.S. (the ACA is the TAC group in this country), but it is not true that other TAC bodies have not requested an Ordinariate. There have been requests from many of the other TAC bodies in other countries: South/Central American, Australia, Torries Strait, Canada, England, etc.; not the mention the Forward in Faith groups in Australia and England (a request expected soon).

So, I expect that there will be surprises. It is all most interesting to see unfolding.

 

[jordananglo]

I would like to ask for prayers for these Anglicans who are coming into the Church through the Ordinariate and also many who have already come.

There are groups of Anglicans who disagree with the decisions of the above Anglicans and have been attacking them on websites. …
Bernadette

Thanks Bernadette! Yes, it seems that the Continuum blog has made a full-time industry of trying to dissuade us from making the worst decision of our lives. Seriously, those guys must have something deeply wrong with them to be able to keep that level of outrage and vitriol pouring fourth for ten months over something that will not effect them!

I do believe that there is a strong spiritual dimension to these developments. I have been personally verbally attacked over this within the past few months. So, yes, please! prayers are deeply needed to stay the course.

 

[BernadetteM]

Thanks Bernadette! Yes, it seems that the Continuum blog has made a full-time industry of trying to dissuade us from making the worst decision of our lives. Seriously, those guys must have something deeply wrong with them to be able to keep that level of outrage and vitriol pouring fourth for ten months over something that will not effect them!

I do believe that there is a strong spiritual dimension to these developments. I have been personally verbally attacked over this within the past few months. So, yes, please! prayers are deeply needed to stay the course.

I am very glad that you will be coming into the Church. I came in years ago after Mahony turned our parish down, even though we were one of the three parishes who asked for and got the Pastoral Provision/Anglican Use. It has been a very long time in coming and I still don’t know where my old parish is going as it is ACA, but as you well know it isn’t easy when there are members who are against it. We must remember that the Continuum is a small group and that I have had a difficult time understanding how those two priests can be so nasty. They mention names of other priests and Bishops and say such horrid things. I know Fr. Phillips by phone and e-mails and he one of the greatest and humble priest I know. He sacrificed much and look how God has blessed him.

I believe that Satan is hard at work against the Ordinariate and also against the Holy Father who has been so gracious towards the Anglicans.

Keep praying as I will, it will all be in our Lord’s time.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[The_Reginator]

For the last 20 or so years, I have held a professional position in the choir of an Episcopal church. Week after week, I’ve heard **the elegant language of the Book of Common Prayer **and admired it. The minute a TAC parish in my city becomes an Anglican Use parish, I’ll be there for Mass. I cannot wait for this beautiful liturgy to find completion in the Catholic Church. Cannot wait!!

Betsy

I only knew the Anglican service for the first 24 years of my life.
The closest thing I can find now is the EF.
If there were to be an Anglican Use parish opening near me I’d wait in line. To be able to receive our Lord is such a beautiful rite … Ahh…

 

[IAGladfelter]

Amost. Remember that the Anglican ministers must first be validly ordained as priests–and this won’t happen until after the Ordinariate(s) is formally established. They will be Catholic, but there will be some delay between becoming Catholic and being ordained–especially given that the married Anglican ministers will have to apply to Rome before being ordained priests. No doubt this will happen quickly, but it won’t be immediate.

As they say, close, but no see-gar! That has already happened and will continue to happen. A very small number Church of England priests including, among others, John Henry Cardinal Newman, Cardinal Manning (who eventually became the Archbishop of Westminster and head of the Catholic Church in England) during the Oxford Movement in the mid to late 1800’s.

In the United States, there are already approximately 100 former Anglican Priests (virtually all married) who entered the Catholic Church through the Anglican Use Pastoral Provision,and were re-ordained (in most cases conditionally, since they also had technically valid Dutch Old Catholic and /or Polish National Catholic Church orders. These are current serving honorably as (married) priests in the U.S. Catholic Church (generally not in parishes, though some are in areas of need due to the shortage of priests.

They use both the Anglican Use Pastoral Provision’s alternate Catholic rite, the “Book of Divine Worship,” which is a combination of elements from the 1928 and 1979 “Book of Common Prayer” and the Mass of Pope Paul VI (Novis Ordo.) Many more will be entering during the new Anglican Ordinariates which are in the process of being established now, on orders from the Pope.

Additionally, a small but rapidly growning international Lutheran Church (the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, which was originally an offshoot of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, which has now completely rejected and recanted Lutheranism and accepted Roman Catholic faith in its entirety,) has filed a very penitential petition to enter the Catholic Church as "returning prodigals, in whichever form the Pope decises is the most appropriate. They are asking nothing but to enter the Catholic Church "as a unified body, most likely some form … A detailed article about them was posted just last week on Catholic Online (just “google” “Are Lutherans Next?”) to read the article. The ALCC’s petition itself, and the enhanced version of the Mandatum which all its clergy have to sign and abide by, is posted online at http://www.stmichaelsalcc.org . Some ALCC clergy use the Anglican USe "Book of Divine Worship,but most use the MAss of Pope Paul VI (Novis Ordo) like everyone else.

Now don’t worry . . . chill, people. This is simply not, and is not going to be the occasion to push for married priests in the Catholic Church. Quite the contrary. That is not the case at all - not even close. It is only a very temporary expedient "for the sake of the reunion of the Church. Although these former Anglican priests are as noted, married priests, and the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Chursh’s clergy will initially be brought in as married clergy, this is only temporary. All have signed (and in the case of the ALCC’s clergy when they enter the Catholic Church will be required to sign prior to their entry into the Catholic Church, the celibacy vow to go into effect on the death of their spouses, and future clergy from among the ranks of both will be required to be celibate for life like all regular Catholic priests.

Blessings,
Irl Gladfelter

 

[IAGladfelter]

As they say, close, but no see-gar! That has already happened and will continue to happen. A very small number Church of England priests including, among others, John Henry Cardinal Newman, Cardinal Manning (who eventually became the Archbishop of Westminster and head of the Catholic Church in England) during the Oxford Movement in the mid to late 1800’s.

In the United States, there are already approximately 100 former Anglican Priests (virtually all married) who entered the Catholic Church through the Anglican Use Pastoral Provision,and were re-ordained (in most cases conditionally, since they also had technically valid Dutch Old Catholic and /or Polish National Catholic Church orders. These are current serving honorably as (married) priests in the U.S. Catholic Church (generally not in parishes, though some are in areas of need due to the shortage of priests.

They use both the Anglican Use Pastoral Provision’s alternate Catholic rite, the “Book of Divine Worship,” which is a combination of elements from the 1928 and 1979 “Book of Common Prayer” and the Mass of Pope Paul VI (Novis Ordo.) Many more will be entering during the new Anglican Ordinariates which are in the process of being established now, on orders from the Pope.

Additionally, a small but rapidly growning international Lutheran Church (the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, which was originally an offshoot of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, which has now completely rejected and recanted Lutheranism and accepted Roman Catholic faith in its entirety,) has filed a very penitential petition to enter the Catholic Church as "returning prodigals, in whichever form the Pope decises is the most appropriate. They are asking nothing but to enter the Catholic Church "as a unified body, most likely some form … A detailed article about them was posted just last week on Catholic Online (just “google” “Are Lutherans Next?”) to read the article. The ALCC’s petition itself, and the enhanced version of the Mandatum which all its clergy have to sign and abide by, is posted online at http://www.stmichaelsalcc.org . Some ALCC clergy use the Anglican USe "Book of Divine Worship,but most use the MAss of Pope Paul VI (Novis Ordo) like everyone else.

Now don’t worry . . . chill, people. This is simply not, and is not going to be the occasion to push for married priests in the Catholic Church. Quite the contrary. That is not the case at all - not even close. It is only a very temporary expedient "for the sake of the reunion of the Church. Although these former Anglican priests are as noted, married priests, and the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Chursh’s clergy will initially be brought in as married clergy, this is only temporary. All have signed (and in the case of the ALCC’s clergy when they enter the Catholic Church will be required to sign prior to their entry into the Catholic Church, the celibacy vow to go into effect on the death of their spouses, and future clergy from among the ranks of both will be required to be celibate for life like all regular Catholic priests.

Blessings,
Irl Gladfelter

As far as the vitriolic bunch in the Anglican Continuum who throw stones at the Catholic Church are concerned, I simply tell them, "Chill, dudes. Do us all a favor and do not try to enter the Catholic Church. Nobody is going to make you guys enter the Catholic Church. Just stay where you are . . . puh-leeze!!

Blessings,
Irl

 

[IAGladfelter]

What you say is true about the U.S. (the ACA is the TAC group in this country), but it is not true that other TAC bodies have not requested an Ordinariate. There have been requests from many of the other TAC bodies in other countries: South/Central American, Australia, Torries Strait, Canada, England, etc.; not the mention the Forward in Faith groups in Australia and England (a request expected soon).

So, I expect that there will be surprises. It is all most interesting to see unfolding.

That is because, unlike on those other countries, anti-Catholicism has been more or less “hard-wired into” American (U.S.) culture since colonial times, even in Anglicanism and Lutheranism. Not all Anglicans and Lutherans have “bought into” that, of course, but that seems to be pretty much an American cultural thing of historical origin, which is simply not present in other countries.

Blessings,
Irl

 

[elgar]

I only knew the Anglican service for the first 24 years of my life.
The closest thing I can find now is the EF.
If there were to be an Anglican Use parish opening near me I’d wait in line. To be able to receive our Lord is such a beautiful rite … Ahh…

Ditto! I’m not holding my breath for this to happen here in the heartland. There aren’t that many Episcopalians to begin with and the ones that remain are rabidly liberal. Have their own women priests.

I also get the feeling that the cradle Catholics would not understand AU and reject it outright. The Catholic culture here likes 45 minute quickie masses and would just die if they had to endure the formality of an Anglican Mass. There is also outright rejection–for many–of anything that reminds them of those old repressive days before VII.

 

[Aunt_Raven]

I’m a devout cradle Catholic who was (before we moved to the UK) for 18 years a member of Our Lady of Walsingham Anglican Use Church in Houston, Texas. I and many other cradle Catholics found " Rite I" of the Book of Divine Worship (approved Catholic version of the Book of Common Prayer–google it, it’s online so that you can inspect it yourself) was so beautiful that it afforded a more contemplative reverence in Liturgy which really helped me advance in my spiritual life; my whole prayer life deepened, and the unforced but dynamic community I found in this parish truly made it a spiritual family for my husband and me.

Many miracles of conversion and evangelism have caused this AU parish to grow from 4 people to outgrowing its first church building in 10 years; and despite most parishioners not being at all affluent, astounding amounts of money were donated to build the new TRADITIONAL stone church in 2003. Many parishes have a verbose “mission statement”; Our Lady of Walsingham’s “mission statement”, when it was asked for one, said it all in one line from the Psalms: “Worship God in the beauty of Holiness.”

What brings former Anglicans, converting Episcopalians, and cradle Catholics like me to an Anglican Use Roman Catholic church is the HOLY-NESS, pure and simple. The majestic and reverent Liturgy, whether Low Mass or Solemn High Mass, fosters humility and a profound reverence for the Holiness of God and joy in His Incarnation.

I am also familiar with the Anglican Use parishes of St Mary the Virgin, in Arlington Texas; and Our Lady of the Atonement Parish in San Antonio, Texas. [All three of these parishes have web pages–Google to explore them; they are delightful]

In these mature parishes (all over 20 years old now) I found the same dynamic, reverent spirituality in a joyous and genuine parish family. I have noticed that members of Anglican Use parishes have a greater appreciation and habit of saying the Divine Office (in private, and in community, especially the ravishingly beautiful sung Evensong-- ) than most Catholics in Novus Ordo parishes. They really “get” Lectio Divina. The AU pastors all PREPARE & preach serious theological sermons which teach you things about the Faith you didn’t know or appreciate before–they preach the kind of thought-provoking homilies that your family tends to discuss over Sunday lunch–( & how rare is THAT in your ordinary Sunday Mass experience?! )

I suppose the ultimate answer to the attraction of Anglican Use Liturgy Churches is the gift of the Holy Spirit granted to the Anglican Use to “renew the renewal” of English language liturgy, and so the Anglican Use parishes attract those of all ages (especially youth!) who are “serious about being Saints.” Evidence of this is the unusual number of young AU people testing or interested in discerning a vocation to the priesthood or religious life–an astounding number considering the comparative newness of these parishes. (The Holy Spirit is pouring out his grace on the numerous young people in all these parishes, which I have visited and know personally.)

Another phenomenon is that the Anglican Use in its lived expression of the New Evangelization attracts many large and devout families, who don’t just talk pro-life, they live it by rejoicing to have politically incorrect numbers of children! (Which is why these parishes and their cultural and educational outreaches keep expanding.) And the teen agers and young adults stay in their AU parishes, --they don’t drift from the Faith as so many other young people do, who have been inadequately grounded in the Catechism and the riches of Catholic Culture as expressed through superb art and music through the ages.

If you have the opportunity to visit an AU Parish for Mass, try it – and don’t be surprised if you come back for more ! :twocents:

 

[Hboggs]

I’ve been Catholic for 7 years and prior to that I was in the Episcopal Church for over 20. During that time I sung in the choir in a “high” church parish service.

I don’t really know how to adequately say how beautiful the 79 Book of Common Prayer mass is compared to the blue collar utilitarian language structure of the current Catholic Mass.

The theology issues within the EP/USA is a totally different unrelated matter and I pray form my former pewmates and most that I know have simply stuck their heads in the sand ignoring what is not directly in front of them.

The music is also much better. Why then am I Catholic, theology. In the best of both worlds, it would be nice to have the BCP Mass offered as an optional Mass at any Catholic that would choose to do so.

If you have the opportunity to attend a high church mass (all the smells, bells, and a liturgical parade second to none) I would encourage you to. Second hand information never trumps that which you experience yourself.

May God Bless

 

[benedictgal]

When I lived in Central Texas, I enjoyed going to both the EF and the AU. Both of them were overflowing with majesty, solemnity and dignity. There was that inexplicable sense that one was indeed surrounded by the unseen cloud of witnesses. The texts of the prayers were beautiful and dignified.

My one consolation (as we do not have the EF nor the AU down here in the hinterland) is the coming new translations, which, oddly enough, bear a strong resemblance to the language used in the AU.

 

[The_Reginator]

That is because, unlike on those other countries, anti-Catholicism has been more or less “hard-wired into” American (U.S.) culture since colonial times, even in Anglicanism and Lutheranism. Not all Anglicans and Lutherans have “bought into” that, of course, but that seems to be pretty much an American cultural thing of historical origin, which is simply not present in other countries.

Blessings,
Irl

That reminds me of what I’ve heard about Ontario Canada.
In many small towns in the early days the Catholic church was built outside of town limits. That’s how it is in my town, and I’ve been told this has happened quite often.

 

[The_Reginator]

** In the best of both worlds, it would be nice to have the BCP Mass offered as an optional Mass at any Catholic [church] that would choose to do so. **

If you have the opportunity to attend a high church mass (all the smells, bells, and a liturgical parade second to none) I would encourage you to. Second hand information never trumps that which you experience yourself.

May God Bless

In the Anglican Use, do people receive kneeling? Is it said ad orientum?

 

[BernadetteM]

In the Anglican Use, do people receive kneeling? Is it said ad orientum?

Yes to both questions. In some Anglican Use parishes the priest uses a cibroium that has some type of cup that holds the Blood and he distributes Communion by intinction.

Whether every AU parish does it this way, I don’t know. They might just receive from the cup after receiving the host. I have only seen people receive on the tongue. But if the priest only distributes it by intinction they must receive on the tongue.

Watch Our Lady of the Atonement’s video on their website and you can see how they receive. The Anglican tradition is to receive kneeling.

 

[Delta1]

It seems to me, from my reading of the constitution, that former Anglicans who have already become Catholic will be eligible for membership in the new ordinariate, so long as they were “originally belonging to the Anglican Communion.” I think this is especially true since we already have some (granted, very few) Anglican-use Catholic parishes (or quasi-parishes) today. I cannot imagine that these existing parishes will be excluded from the future ordinariates, as that would just not make any sense.

Sounds like typical beaucracy.

Let’s see if I understood this right. I am currently an Anglican, but enrolled in RCIA and will be confirmed Catholic on Easter. So, would that mean I would be allowed to join an AU parish after confirmation? Note, My Anglican Church is ECUSA. Thanks!

-Delta1

 

[FrDavid96]

Sounds like typical beaucracy.

Let’s see if I understood this right. I am currently an Anglican, but enrolled in RCIA and will be confirmed Catholic on Easter. So, would that mean I would be allowed to join an AU parish after confirmation? Note, My Anglican Church is ECUSA. Thanks!

-Delta1

Yes. You will be eligible to join an Anglican Catholic parish.

The more practical question, though is “will you have that option?” Since there is not yet an ordinariate for the US, unless you live near a current Anglican Catholic parish (which seems unlikely, or else you wouldn’t be in your current situation), you’ll have to wait-and-see if a local parish is established. Once (and ‘if’) such a parish is established for where you live, you will be eligible.

 

[Delta1]

Yes. You will be eligible to join an Anglican Catholic parish.

The more practical question, though is “will you have that option?” Since there is not yet an ordinariate for the US, unless you live near a current Anglican Catholic parish (which seems unlikely, or else you wouldn’t be in your current situation), you’ll have to wait-and-see if a local parish is established. Once (and ‘if’) such a parish is established for where you live, you will be eligible.

Thank You Father David! The closest one to me will be the Cathedral of the Incarnation in Orlando. theparish.org/

I’m curious why Catholics that were not Anglican are not eligible??? Thanks

Peace be with you!

-Delta1

 

[Chatter163]

Thank You Father David! The closest one to me will be the Cathedral of the Incarnation in Orlando. theparish.org

No, you misunderstand. I believe that the previous poster meant unless you live near a current Anglican Use parish of the Roman Catholic Church, not a Continuing Anglican parish of another ecclesial community. It is possible that Incarnation Cathedral may ultimately be received into the Roman Catholic Church–or it may not. It is difficult to tell, as the parishes in that denomination must decide whether or not they wish to petition to join the Anglican Ordinariate. But that currently is unrelated to your journey into the Catholic Church.