Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?

[Counterpoint]

Counterpoint:

So, you believe there are some who actually desire misery more than happiness?

Yes. It isn’t so far-fetched. I’ve experienced myself. Sometimes I know that in order to be happy, I should get my homework done early and not have to worry about it. But that doesn’t stop me from sometimes choosing selfishness, “I’d rather do this right now” and continuing the procrastination, only to be miserable when I’m rushing to finish it the last minute, or even worse, can’t get it done on time.

That’s an interesting point you raised.

I would argue that you are still seeking happiness. The problem is that you have made an error in judging what will ultimately bring you more happiness. For if you truly understood the ramifications of choosing a lesser good at the expense of a greater good, then you would have made a better choice. However, if you truly did understand the ramifications and still failed to make the better choice, then I would argue that you are not really a free agent, but an enslaved one.

“Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Romans 7:20

 

[Counterpoint]

No, the will can play a role in (dis)belief-formation.

Why did you employ the qualifiers “apparent” or “actual, but mixed” in the following response:

“We find reasons to accept or reject propositions when other apparent (or actual, but mixed) goods prompt our will”

Obviously, none of us here are omniscient. But if I did know everything, then how would it be possible for me to accept a proposition as true when I know it is actually false?

 

[ngill09]

No, the will can play a role in (dis)belief-formation.

Again keeping in mind that the vast majority of non-Christians hold to other faiths. So they would be guilty of pursuing God through their faith as Christians are of pursuing God through theirs.

 

[laircy]

Why did you employ the qualifiers “apparent” or “actual, but mixed” in the following response:

“We find reasons to accept or reject propositions when other apparent (or actual, but mixed) goods prompt our will”

Obviously, none of us here are omniscient. But if I did know everything, then how would it be possible for me to accept a proposition as true when I know it is actually false?

I think that while it is not possible for us to know everything and to truly, fully understand the ramifications of our decisions, we can know enough to be culpable. People often say, "you know better.” You don’t know everything, but there are times when you know enough. That is why sometimes you’ll hear “sufficient knowledge” in place of “full knowledge” in the requirements for mortal sin.

 

[chefmomster2]

“Goodness is that which all things desire.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

If it is our nature to seek goodness and God is the supreme good, then why does anyone knowingly and willing reject God (the supreme good)? Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject that which is ultimately in his or her own best interest?

We each seek our own good. If we do not recognize God as our good, why would we seek Him? For example, atheists do not recognize the existence of God. It follows that they do not believe that a non-existent God is good, or evil, or anything else for that matter. Thus, they do not choose to follow Him.

Full knowledge does not mean full acceptance. It means that the person has had full access to the Truth. For instance, any regular participant on this website can learn and be instructed on faith. There is no lack of the knowledge required for salvation here. But, s/he may choose to reject this. They do so then with full knowledge and willingly as it is their choice. There is no forced conversion here. Presumably they do so because they don’t see it as in their best interest.

Why do you (if you do) willingly and knowingly reject God? You have been told about Him here. You participate regularly on this site and have heard all of the reasons to choose to believe. You have been told that God is in your best interest.

You reject the knowledge (if you do), you reject the idea that it is in your best interest, therefore you choose not to believe.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Do you believe that the majority of human beings will perish eternally because they were so unfortunate to have had a dysfunctional relationship with their father?

I don’t believe that a dysfunctional relationship with one’s father is a fatal flaw in one’s character. God always offers us a way to move beyond our flawed natures. Turning to God as our ultimate Father is the obvious solution to resenting the absence of a human father or suffering from a hateful relationship with a human father. Those who refuse to turn to their true Father are acting according to their free will, not according to some kind of deterministic psychology that forever dooms them never to choose God. Perishing eternally, as you put it, is always one’s own fault, never God’s.

 

[philial]

What about demons?

Nasty critters - best avoided!

 

[philial]

Well, isn’t the rejection of our fellow human beings pretty much the same thing as rejecting God?

“And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:28-31

I believe so, which is the point I was seeking to convey. We may comfort ourselves that we are unable to reject God in a full & knowledgeable way, but there is no such comfort in how we treat our fellows.
We will be judged by the light of Christ. Our lack of charity moves us to darkness, and the light will reveal & burn. But if we move towards Christ-likeness by way of charity so the more the light soothes & heals.

 

[fhansen]

“Goodness is that which all things desire.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

If it is our nature to seek goodness and God is the supreme good, then why does anyone knowingly and willing reject God (the supreme good)? Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject that which is ultimately in his or her own best interest?

Every time we sin we carry on the family tradition to one degree or another-of rejecting God as our God.

 

[polytropos]

Why did you employ the qualifiers “apparent” or “actual, but mixed” in the following response:

“We find reasons to accept or reject propositions when other apparent (or actual, but mixed) goods prompt our will”

No particularly deep reason; it is just because our desires for apparent goods can lead us to adopt false beliefs, ie. by rationalizing that an evil act is not actually that bad.

I’m not saying that all false belief is held in this manner. I am saying that it is possible, and that it is common.

I used “apparent” because some things which seem good are not good. For example, fornication seems good to many. I added “actual, but mixed” because it is perhaps more accurate to describe many “apparent” goods as goods in a certain sense, but evil in others. Fornication could be another example here; sex is good, but outside of specific contexts it is not.

Obviously, none of us here are omniscient. But if I did know everything, then how would it be possible for me to accept a proposition as true when I know it is actually false?

Some things are too well known to be convinced otherwise. I cannot convince myself that 2+2=5. I cannot convince myself that I do not exist. But when there is room for argument and other apparent goods are at play, I can adopt belief for non-rational reasons. I might cultivate vincible ignorance. I might ignore the admonishment of someone I take to be preachy and pretentious.

 

[polytropos]

Again keeping in mind that the vast majority of non-Christians hold to other faiths. So they would be guilty of pursuing God through their faith as Christians are of pursuing God through theirs.

Well, I said that will could play a role in being ignorant of God, not that will always does play a role. As is well known, the Catholic Church teaches that those invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith are not culpable.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

They reject God because they would rather hide in the dark and commit sins than to come into the light and see the truth. An atheist is a person who rejects the glory of his/her own soul.

 

[polytropos]

But if I did know everything, then how would it be possible for me to accept a proposition as true when I know it is actually false?

Here is another example. I was an atheist back when I attended Catholic high school. There were a couple points on retreats where I felt drawn to return to the Catholic Church, but chose to suppress those thoughts because I was known as being an atheist and it would have involved substantial changes to my way of life and my friends’ perceptions of me.

I did not know atheism to be false then. I continued to believe that I had good reasons for holding it. But because of some of the benefits it afforded me and some of the practical difficulties in returning to the Church, I did not look into Catholicism again even when I got the sense that I might not have given it a full evaluation (as most people who become atheists in middle school have not).

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I did not look into Catholicism again even when I got the sense that I might not have given it a full evaluation (as most people who become atheists in middle school have not).

I have noticed in studying the lives of famous atheists that many of them became atheists in their teen years. That is, of course, an age of rebellion. Who more significant to rebel against than God almighty. It took me a little longer than most. I was well into in my twenties, and pretty much under the influnce of atheist scholars, before I got infected with the notion that religion is for old ladies and little children. But in retrospect I dimly sensed even then that I had issues with my real father and my step father.

 

[ngill09]

I have noticed in studying the lives of famous atheists that many of them became atheists in their teen years. That is, of course, an age of rebellion. Who more significant to rebel against than God almighty. It took me a little longer than most. I was well into in my twenties, and pretty much under the influnce of atheist scholars, before I got infected with the notion that religion is for old ladies and little children. But in retrospect I dimly sensed even then that I had issues with my real father and my step father.

Are you saying that because you went through an atheist phase because of your parental issues, that means that every non-christian (atheist, muslim, hindu, agnostic, deist, pantheist, jew, etc.) holds their beliefs for the same reasons? Because I know atheists who say they were only religious because they were afraid of death, wanted to believe the universe cared about them, etc., and would that mean that every religious person only holds their beliefs out of fear? Is it possible you’re projecting here and that you should probably not make blanket assumptions about the hearts of billions of people?

 

[zippy2006]

Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject that which is ultimately in his or her own best interest?

Good question, I don’t know! Since you can’t ask the people in Hell, you could try the hopeless alcoholic, or the man who keeps cheating on his wife, or your deranged relative, or the child who tortures his cat. If you are particularly sensitive, you can simply look at yourself and your own sinful ways. It is the mysterium iniquitatis, and it is not an *a priori *problem.

 

[Counterpoint]

Most people tho, if presented with a God who surely existed and was worthy of the name God-- who was as loving as a God should be–probably wouldn’t “reject” this God.
But many are not presented with this.

Agreed.

 

[fred_conty]

“Goodness is that which all things desire.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

If it is our nature to seek goodness and God is the supreme good, then why does anyone knowingly and willing reject God (the supreme good)? Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject that which is ultimately in his or her own best interest?

In case of the bad angels, they committed the sin of pride, which is, that they thought they knew more than God. That pretty much sums up the whole problem with angels and men. When someone thinks they know more than God, like Adam and Eve, then that’s all there is.

This also applies to sensual bodily sins. We have been told what is right and wrong. But not everyone believes the wisdom of God, which breaks down into pride.

Now some just are plain weak and don’t deny they are wrong. I think God can have more mercy in their case. But those who are weak and think they aren’t wrong but that God is unreasonable, then this hardness of heart is much more difficult to handle, and is much more dangerous.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Since you can’t ask the people in Hell, you could try the hopeless alcoholic, or the man who keeps cheating on his wife, or your deranged relative, or the child who tortures his cat.

The people in these categories don’t necessarily reject God. Also, I would suggest avoiding some of the above people.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Are you saying that because you went through an atheist phase because of your parental issues, that means that every non-christian (atheist, muslim, hindu, agnostic, deist, pantheist, jew, etc.) holds their beliefs for the same reasons? Because I know atheists who say they were only religious because they were afraid of death, wanted to believe the universe cared about them, etc., and would that mean that every religious person only holds their beliefs out of fear? Is it possible you’re projecting here and that you should probably not make blanket assumptions about the hearts of billions of people?

I would not be surprised to discover there are billions of atheists. I don’t propose to speak for all of them. But I think the theory of Paul Vitz regarding rejection of the human father and the subsequent rejection of God as Father may well apply to many of them, including myself at one time in my life.

You sound very angry about Vitz’s theory. All I can suggest is that you read his book and decide for yourself whether what he says makes any sense with respect to many atheists. His proof is in all the biographical facts he was able to discover about the relationships (or lack of) between these atheists and their fathers.