Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?

[ngill09]

I would not be surprised to discover there are billions of atheists. I don’t propose to speak for all of them. But I think the theory of Paul Vitz regarding rejection of the human father and the subsequent rejection of God as Father may well apply to many of them, including myself at one time in my life.

You sound very angry about Vitz’s theory. All I can suggest is that you read his book and decide for yourself whether what he says makes any sense with respect to many atheists. His proof is in all the biographical facts he was able to discover about the relationships (or lack of) between these atheists and their fathers.

I’m angry about stereotyping and projection. The world would be a much better place if people actually listened to people of other beliefs rather than make assumptions about them.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . The world would be a much better place if people actually listened to people of other beliefs rather than make assumptions about them.

I don’t know how one can get about in the world without making assumptions. The problem arises in closing one’s mind. It is best to test the validity of one’s assumptions, as you say, by listening to people.
However, you still have to understand them, which entails formulating an opinion about what they are saying.
We are psychological as well as spiritual and material beings. I seems that to do some sort of psychoanalysis on a person to explain away their beliefs is just as bad as reducing all existence to a material explanation.
That said, if you are trying to open a person’s mind to the greater truth, to free their soul so that it may soar, it does help to identify the cognitive and emotional bars that constitute its prison.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’m angry about stereotyping and projection. The world would be a much better place if people actually listened to people of other beliefs rather than make assumptions about them.

Possibly you have made an unwarranted assumption here: that Paul Vitz’s theory about how many (not all) atheists become atheists is full of assumptions rather than evidence.

Perhaps if you looked at the evidence you would not make such an assumption?

 

[polytropos]

I have noticed in studying the lives of famous atheists that many of them became atheists in their teen years. That is, of course, an age of rebellion. Who more significant to rebel against than God almighty.

I didn’t have issues with my father, and my atheism wasn’t a rebellion against my parents. (After becoming an atheist I still attended mass, pretended to believe, was confirmed, etc.)

I don’t think it is particularly constructive to assume that all atheists are engaged in active rebellion, and certainly not that their rebellion is rooted in one specific cause. People are atheists for a variety of reasons and don’t deserve to be psychoanalyzed. Indeed in Catholicism we can’t always judge others’ subjective culpability. We can indicate and admonish when someone is engaging in an objectively wrong act, and we may know based on the circumstances or other information about their subjective state (ie. if they tell us), but generally that is up to God.

 

[DanAl]

“Goodness is that which all things desire.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

If it is our nature to seek goodness and God is the supreme good, then why does anyone knowingly and willing reject God (the supreme good)? Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject that which is ultimately in his or her own best interest?

Maybe we do not always desire good as Ockham and a few others have held and can choose for its own sake.

Put the above aside and assume that we desire the good. There’s no contradiction in saying that:

1- We desire the good.

2- We can willinglly focus on and seek other goods.

To take an example, I might desire to go to mass (which is good) but I can restrain myself from doing so and focus on other lesser goods; like watching football.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I didn’t have issues with my father, and my atheism wasn’t a rebellion against my parents. (After becoming an atheist I still attended mass, pretended to believe, was confirmed, etc.)

I don’t think it is particularly constructive to assume that all atheists are engaged in active rebellion, and certainly not that their rebellion is rooted in one specific cause.

I don’t think it is particularly constructive to misrepresent what Paul Vitz or I have said. Read my posts again and find where it says all atheists have troubles with their fathers. Vitz was looking for a pattern, which he found among many atheists who were rebellious and outspoken as atheists.

As for not psychoanalyzing, that’s done all the time in the Bible, as when we read in Psalms:

“The fool in his heart says there is no God.” Psalms 14:1

When I was an atheist, I was a fool. Confession is good for the soul!

 

[zippy2006]

The people in these categories don’t necessarily reject God. Also, I would suggest avoiding some of the above people.

It was asked why anyone would knowingly and willingly reject that which is in their best interest. That is a good question that gets to the heart of the matter, and I believe my answer was appropriate.

 

[opusAquinas]

If no one willingly and knowingly rejects God, I guess no one is going to hell. :clapping::doh2:

 

[OneSheep]

If no one willingly and knowingly rejects God, I guess no one is going to hell. :clapping::doh2:

Interesting topic here. I agree that the question includes an assumption for which I have found no evidence.

A priest who led a Bible study said that a person who perceives that Jesus is cruel or unmerciful is better off rejecting such a god. In addition, the same priest gave the opinion that the only way anyone goes to hell is if they go “screaming and kicking” against God the whole way. I agree with him.

I have yet to find an example of how “mortal sin” can actually happen. Ignorance and/or blindness are necessary ingredients of all sin, at least that is my viewing. I am very open to an example of how it can happen, but I have yet to find a case of how mortal sin could occur.

 

[opusAquinas]

Interesting topic here. I agree that the question includes an assumption for which I have found no evidence.

A priest who led a Bible study said that a person who perceives that Jesus is cruel or unmerciful is better off rejecting such a god. In addition, the same priest gave the opinion that the only way anyone goes to hell is if they go “screaming and kicking” against God the whole way. I agree with him.

I have yet to find an example of how “mortal sin” can actually happen. Ignorance and/or blindness are necessary ingredients of all sin, at least that is my viewing. I am very open to an example of how it can happen, but I have yet to find a case of how mortal sin could occur.

Are the pharisees in heaven or hell?

 

[chefmomster2]

I have yet to find an example of how “mortal sin” can actually happen. Ignorance and/or blindness are necessary ingredients of all sin, at least that is my viewing. I am very open to an example of how it can happen, but I have yet to find a case of how mortal sin could occur.

Murder, armed robbery, rape,…are some that come to mind. Competent adults can fully be expected to know that these are all serious sins and to know that by committing them they are committing serious sin and yet they decide freely to do so anyway. Our full knowledge and consent does not require more.

(Competent= adult, normal intellectual ability)

Example:
A man decides to rob the corner mini-mart at gunpoint.
He is a competent adult.
-----He is fully aware of the seriousness of this act.
-----He is fully able to give his consent.
He plans it in minute detail.
-----This would indicate that he knows it is seriously wrong.
He especially plans his getaway.
-----He tries to avoid punishment which again means he knows it is wrong.
He pulls the job alone.
-----No one is forcing him, no one is compelling him. He is consenting.
-----He commits the robbery, the serious sin.
(You might ask about his motives, but they don’t matter much in my example. If he was robbing the store to feed his starving children it would still be a mortal sin. Even if you are committing a serious sin “for a good reason” it is totally unacceptable. If he is an addict, he can’t be excused from one serious sin because of another.)

The people of the world are not all philosophers or theologians. They are not expected to be. The commandments are intended to be understandable by all. There ARE times when there is not full knowledge or consent, certainly, but to say that no one can ever commit mortal sin is not true.

 

[madera]

“Goodness is that which all things desire.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

If it is our nature to seek goodness and God is the supreme good, then why does anyone knowingly and willing reject God (the supreme good)? Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject that which is ultimately in his or her own best interest?

I dont think anyone would knowingly reject God.
Just because they listen to the wrong voice in their thoughts.

 

[opusAquinas]

I dont think anyone would knowingly reject God.
Just because they listen to the wrong voice in their thoughts.

Are the pharisees in heaven or hell?

 

[madera]

Are the pharisees in heaven or hell?

Its not my place to judge. God is Judge.

 

[Bradski]

If it is our nature to seek goodness and I believe that God is the supreme good, then why does anyone knowingly and willing reject God (which I believe to be the supreme good)? Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject that which I believe is ultimately in his or her own best interest?

You may have noted that I have added to your post to more accurately reflect what I believe it means.

 

[BellsMom]

I don’t believe in an interactive personal god. I accept the possibility of a creator or creative force.

I do reject the god commonly understood by Christianity, Islam and Judaism. I cannot accept the bible as an accurate revelation of this creators “goodness” or “love” or “mercy”. In fact, to my mind, one must completely twist the meaning of those words beyond recognition to make them apply to the Christian god.

I do however admit that I may be wrong.

In that case, if god were to appear and verify that the bible is an accurate history of ancient times and of his revelations to man, I’m afraid I would still reject him. I don’t believe that being all powerful is an automatic right to be loved and worshiped. I think that even god beings should be judged and held to the standard they themselves teach. Obviously, I’m not on board with “who are we to judge god?” or “how can you judge until you know everything he knows?”

Anyway that’s how I knowingly and willing reject god.

 

[chefmomster2]

I don’t believe in an interactive personal god. I accept the possibility of a creator or creative force.

I do reject the god commonly understood by Christianity, Islam and Judaism. I cannot accept the bible as an accurate revelation of this creators “goodness” or “love” or “mercy”. In fact, to my mind, one must completely twist the meaning of those words beyond recognition to make them apply to the Christian god.

I do however admit that I may be wrong.

In that case, if god were to appear and verify that the bible is an accurate history of ancient times and of his revelations to man, I’m afraid I would still reject him. I don’t believe that being all powerful is an automatic right to be loved and worshiped. I think that even god beings should be judged and held to the standard they themselves teach. Obviously, I’m not on board with “who are we to judge god?” or “how can you judge until you know everything he knows?”

Anyway that’s how I knowingly and willing reject god.

I appreciate your honesty. I hope you won’t mind if I keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[madera]

I don’t believe in an interactive personal god. I accept the possibility of a creator or creative force.

I do reject the god commonly understood by Christianity, Islam and Judaism. I cannot accept the bible as an accurate revelation of this creators “goodness” or “love” or “mercy”. In fact, to my mind, one must completely twist the meaning of those words beyond recognition to make them apply to the Christian god.

I do however admit that I may be wrong.

In that case, if god were to appear and verify that the bible is an accurate history of ancient times and of his revelations to man, I’m

afraid I would still reject him. I don’t believe that being all powerful is
an automatic right to be loved and worshiped. I think that even god
beings should be judged and held to the standard they themselves
teach. Obviously, I’m not on board with “who are we to judge god?” or
“how can you judge until you know everything he knows?”

Anyway that’s how I knowingly and willing reject god.

 

[madera]

madera:
when people say they dont believe in God, when they stub their toes, or
something tragic happens what are the first words that come out of their mouths, oh my God.
unbelievable.

 

[ngill09]

when people say they dont believe in God, when they stub their toes, or
something tragic happens what are the first words that come out of their mouths, oh my God.
unbelievable.

Sometimes they’ll even say “Holy cr*p”, proving their subconscious belief in The Divine Poop.