Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?

[fred_conty]

I will take this as your way of conceding the point, namely, that free will must be either compatible with determinism or indeterminism.

Eternal damnation is not justice. It’s a mockery of justice.

It is about immortality not justice primarily. We are immortal. We have no end. Because man has a soul that is spirit. He will be forever, whether he is a nice person or a bad person…that will go on and on. Immortality is the key word.

The bible says that evil men see evil as good and good as evil. Therefore if God is good then the bad will see him as evil. And that is why they won’t choose God, because in their view he is evil.

Being evil means not choosing God, and being immortal means never ending, and that equals hell.

Justice follows, for we get what we choose.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[chefmomster2]

Thanks.

So that to me would say that many of us are never in mortal sin. I don’t want to say what God would think, but the church teaches certain sins separate us from God, yet we know psychological issue’s play a massive part to all sins against each other…

I would say that we commit mortal sin frequently, but it is likely that if we suffer in a serious way from one of the issues listed in the CCC, many of those sins will be reduced in culpability.

That being said, I don’t have the right to presume what God’s judgment would be. Nor should I feel comfortable relying on my own judgment that I am not in a state of mortal sin. So, it is always advisable to go to confession any time you feel you have committed mortal sin and explain the sin to your confessor.

More info:

1779 It is important for every person** to be sufficiently present to himself i**n order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders…

1861…However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

And from New Advent:
Vincible ignorance as a reason of an effect does not rob it of its voluntariness, as the ignorance is voluntary and its effect immediate and natural…**Passion spontaneously arising does not ordinarily mean the loss of voluntariness, as in ordinary course it leaves a man both the necessary knowledge and power of self-determination, as we know by experience. In the extraordinary case of such an excess of passion as paralyzes the use of reason obviously the act cannot be voluntary. **Even fear and the cognate passions that turn a man from sensible harm do not destroy the simple voluntariness of their act, as this (excepting again such excess as holds up the reasoning faculty) proceeds with such knowledge and efficacious self-determination consequent thereon as fulfil the requisites for voluntary action. Of course there will commonly remain an inefficacious reluctance of the will to such action. Physical force can coerce only the external act: our experience shows that the internal act of the will is still our own.

 

[simpleas]

I would say that we commit mortal sin frequently, but it is likely that if we suffer in a serious way from one of the issues listed in the CCC, many of those sins will be reduced in culpability.

That being said, I don’t have the right to presume what God’s judgment would be. Nor should I feel comfortable relying on my own judgment that I am not in a state of mortal sin. So, it is always advisable to go to confession any time you feel you have committed mortal sin and explain the sin to your confessor.

More info:

1779 It is important for every person** to be sufficiently present to himself i**n order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders…

1861…However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

And from New Advent:
Vincible ignorance as a reason of an effect does not rob it of its voluntariness, as the ignorance is voluntary and its effect immediate and natural…**Passion spontaneously arising does not ordinarily mean the loss of voluntariness, as in ordinary course it leaves a man both the necessary knowledge and power of self-determination, as we know by experience. In the extraordinary case of such an excess of passion as paralyzes the use of reason obviously the act cannot be voluntary. **Even fear and the cognate passions that turn a man from sensible harm do not destroy the simple voluntariness of their act, as this (excepting again such excess as holds up the reasoning faculty) proceeds with such knowledge and efficacious self-determination consequent thereon as fulfil the requisites for voluntary action. Of course there will commonly remain an inefficacious reluctance of the will to such action. Physical force can coerce only the external act: our experience shows that the internal act of the will is still our own.

Thanks.
The problem I have is with saying a person should follow their conscience, what one persons conscience deems a sin, someone else may not see it as sin. Yet the two people love God.
So one person follows the God we know from our church teachings, and the other must be following their own made up version of God…

We can examine our conscience by ourself once we have learnt good from bad imo, but I agree if a person is unsure then confession is the best thing.

By the way, I can barely understand that quote from the New Advent

 

[St_Donatus]

When I was young, I had been taught the truths of the Catholic Church. When I was a young man, I learned that physical pleasure was more fun than praying etc. Since I enjoyed the pleasure, I subconsciously rejected God. Tried to prove he didn’t exist. Tried to prove that Jesus was a fraud. I only believed those things that proved my point. Within a few years I was an Atheist?

Deep down inside though I knew God was there but I rejected him. Do most Catholics follow this same line of subconscious development? Yes, I believe so. Look how many call themselves Catholic yet don’t go to mass on Sunday. They believe what they want and what is convenient for their lifestyle.

We can also see this in the divorce rate. Oh I love my child. I would never do anything to hurt her, yet I married a woman because she was sexy but she was a nut. Then we had a baby, then we got divorced. My child is still paying for my selfish decisions, none of which I would have made had I followed Catholic teaching.

Yes, people do reject God. Jesus taught that those who don’t reject themselves WILL NOT be saved. They are not just rejecting God, they are rejecting a selfless loving lifestyle.
Matthew 10:
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

 

[chefmomster2]

Thanks.
The problem I have is with saying a person should follow their conscience, what one persons conscience deems a sin, someone else may not see it as sin. Yet the two people love God.
So one person follows the God we know from our church teachings, and the other must be following their own made up version of God…

We can examine our conscience by ourself once we have learnt good from bad imo, but I agree if a person is unsure then confession is the best thing.

By the way, I can barely understand that quote from the New Advent

There is a good reason for two people loving God in what seems like different ways according to doctrine. Let’s try this example.

At one point my kids were 5, 10, and 15 years old. One of the “doctrines” in our home was that lying was unacceptable. Pretty simple, it would seem. Strict letter of the law would have been punishing them the same for every single lie. But that does not consider their maturity. My 15yo daughter was fully capable of understanding what lies were, lies of commission and omission and to know that they would be punished. She was punished for every lie, usually by losing a privilege or being grounded if it was a serious lie. My 5yo was a different story. At 5 children are only just cognitively mature enough to begin understanding about lies. That is a time when fairy tales are real! They don’t quite get it. He usually received instruction when he lied. Eventually he received a time-out of 1 min. per year of age.

In the same way, people are each at a different place in spiritual maturity. They have consciences that have been developed to different levels. They have had different experiences that may or not affect their knowledge and consent. One has challenges the other might not. They each respond to God in their own unique and personal way. This is just and merciful.

Also, we each have our own personal, loving relationship with God. We are to safeguard this relationship. We are to do all we possibly can to do that. We are NOT responsible for anyone else’s relationship. That is between them and God. It is none of our business. Truly, if we are really focused on our relationship, we should have no time to worry about someone else’s.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Also, we each have our own personal, loving relationship with God. We are to safeguard this relationship. We are to do all we possibly can to do that. We are NOT responsible for anyone else’s relationship. That is between them and God. It is none of our business. Truly, if we are really focused on our relationship, we should have no time to worry about someone else’s.

I struggle with this problem all the time. I try to keep out of other peoples’ spirituality.

Then someone tells me I am needed in the prison ministry.

 

[chefmomster2]

Part 2: Here again is the paragraph from New Advent:

Vincible ignorance as a reason of an effect does not rob it of its voluntariness, as the ignorance is voluntary and its effect immediate and natural…

We can’t claim ignorance if we could have known better, but didn’t bother finding out if it really was a mortal sin.

Passion spontaneously arising does not ordinarily mean the loss of voluntariness, as in ordinary course it leaves a man both the necessary knowledge and power of self-determination, as we know by experience.

Feeling super emotional doesn’t usually mean we aren’t held responsible.

In the extraordinary case of such an excess of passion as paralyzes the use of reason obviously the act cannot be voluntary.

If the bad feelings are waaaaaay over the top to the point where we can’t even think, then it might mean we couldn’t give consent.

Even fear and the cognate passions that turn a man from sensible harm do not destroy the simple voluntariness of their act.

Even fear and some other passions don’t necessarily keep us from freely choosing our actions.

Physical force can coerce only the external act: our experience shows that the internal act of the will is still our own.

Someone might be able to force us to do an outwardly sinful act, but we can still control our reason and avoid sinful thoughts.

In other words, we just can’t be sure what is or is not a mortal sin for ourselves. Confession is the best plan to be sure to stay in a state of grace.

 

[chefmomster2]

I struggle with this problem all the time. I try to keep out of other peoples’ spirituality.

Then someone tells me I am needed in the prison ministry.

Isn’t that always the way?

 

[simpleas]

There is a good reason for two people loving God in what seems like different ways according to doctrine. Let’s try this example.

At one point my kids were 5, 10, and 15 years old. One of the “doctrines” in our home was that lying was unacceptable. Pretty simple, it would seem. Strict letter of the law would have been punishing them the same for every single lie. But that does not consider their maturity. My 15yo daughter was fully capable of understanding what lies were, lies of commission and omission and to know that they would be punished. She was punished for every lie, usually by losing a privilege or being grounded if it was a serious lie. My 5yo was a different story. At 5 children are only just cognitively mature enough to begin understanding about lies. That is a time when fairy tales are real! They don’t quite get it. He usually received instruction when he lied. Eventually he received a time-out of 1 min. per year of age.

In the same way, people are each at a different place in spiritual maturity. They have consciences that have been developed to different levels. They have had different experiences that may or not affect their knowledge and consent. One has challenges the other might not. They each respond to God in their own unique and personal way. This is just and merciful.

Also, we each have our own personal, loving relationship with God. We are to safeguard this relationship. We are to do all we possibly can to do that. We are NOT responsible for anyone else’s relationship. That is between them and God. It is none of our business. Truly, if we are really focused on our relationship, we should have no time to worry about someone else’s.

Cool, so we can follow our conscience even if its not the informed conscience the church teaches and still have our own personal relationship with God.

We might not be responsible for anyone else’s relationship with God, but we are responsible for helping each other on our spiritual journey

 

[simpleas]

Part 2: Here again is the paragraph from New Advent:

We can’t claim ignorance if we could have known better, but didn’t bother finding out if it really was a mortal sin.

Feeling super emotional doesn’t usually mean we aren’t held responsible.

If the bad feelings are waaaaaay over the top to the point where we can’t even think, then it might mean we couldn’t give consent.

Even fear and some other passions don’t necessarily keep us from freely choosing our actions.

Someone might be able to force us to do an outwardly sinful act, but we can still control our reason and avoid sinful thoughts.

In other words, we just can’t be sure what is or is not a mortal sin for ourselves. Confession is the best plan to be sure to stay in a state of grace.

Thank you for breaking this down. It is much appreciated.

 

[tonyrey]

When I was young, I had been taught the truths of the Catholic Church. When I was a young man, I learned that physical pleasure was more fun than praying etc. Since I enjoyed the pleasure, I subconsciously rejected God. Tried to prove he didn’t exist. Tried to prove that Jesus was a fraud. I only believed those things that proved my point. Within a few years I was an Atheist?

Deep down inside though I knew God was there but I rejected him. Do most Catholics follow this same line of subconscious development? Yes, I believe so. Look how many call themselves Catholic yet don’t go to mass on Sunday. They believe what they want and what is convenient for their lifestyle.

We can also see this in the divorce rate. Oh I love my child. I would never do anything to hurt her, yet I married a woman because she was sexy but she was a nut. Then we had a baby, then we got divorced. My child is still paying for my selfish decisions, none of which I would have made had I followed Catholic teaching.

Yes, people do reject God. Jesus taught that those who don’t reject themselves WILL NOT be saved. They are not just rejecting God, they are rejecting a selfless loving lifestyle.
Matthew 10:
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

Not only moving but convincing!

 

[chefmomster2]

Cool, so we can follow our conscience even if its not the informed conscience the church teaches and still have our own personal relationship with God.

We might not be responsible for anyone else’s relationship with God, but we are responsible for helping each other on our spiritual journey

Well…I don’t want to give you the wrong idea.

1. Yes, we must always follow our conscience.

1778… In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

1. If you KNOW your conscience is not aligned with what the Church tells you, then no, it is NOT ok. You must learn what is correct and train yourself to recognize it. If you don’t do this knowing that you are headed in the wrong direction it can be a serious sin.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator…

1. We always have a relationship with God unless we reject Him. Even then He will welcome you back if you become reconciled with Him.

 

[simpleas]

Well…I don’t want to give you the wrong idea.

1. Yes, we must always follow our conscience.

1778… In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

1. If you KNOW your conscience is not aligned with what the Church tells you, then no, it is NOT ok. You must learn what is correct and train yourself to recognize it. If you don’t do this knowing that you are headed in the wrong direction it can be a serious sin.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator…

1. We always have a relationship with God unless we reject Him. Even then He will welcome you back if you become reconciled with Him.

Point 3 I agree with.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, I’m just finding it all very interesting how people understand church teachings in their own way.

 

[tonyrey]

Point 3 I agree with.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, I’m just finding it all very interesting how people understand church teachings in their own way.

That is the purpose of life: to choose what to believe and how to live. We’re not expected to conform at the cost of our conscience…

 

[OneSheep]

Would you mind spending a couple of posts clarifying our definitions, then? Let me know if you agree with:

CCC1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22L 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of Christ.

We can certainly assert that sin rises up against God, and I agree that it does. However, I always keep in mind that God, when He created us, knew that we would sin, and knew that we would learn from our sin. Then, He created us anyway.

I agree with other posters on this thread concerning “offense against God”. Abba I experience in my prayer life is not subject to “taking offense” in an emotional way. We can certainly “offend” the rules, though; we “offend” our God-given conscience.

• Man sins.
• These sins are defined as venial or mortal.
• Mortal sins require three things
• The sin must be serious.
• There must be full knowledge. (as opposed to “ignorance”)
• There must be full consent. (as opposed to “blindness”)

CCC1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

Exactly, that is the definition I am addressing. In my observation, there is never full knowledge, nor full consent (because consent also has a knowledge component). Blindness and ignorance are a factor in all sin, the way I see it.

Yes, we have our own consciences triggered when we experience or observe sin, and such triggering leads to our desire to have sin punished. However, our first calling in the matter (other than protecting those who are in harm’s way!) is to forgive the person we hold something against.

Does Abba, through Jesus, ask us to forgive those we hold something against, yet not do this very act of forgiveness? To me, that does not compute.

Since I am really only speaking in terms of observation, I still think it would be most fruitful to observe an actual or hypothetical occurrence, and try to determine if ignorance and/or blindness is a factor. We can continue with the theft example you provided, we can discuss Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, or any other historical person, or we can simply make up a new story. Which would you prefer?

Here is what I glean:

English Standard Version(Luke 23:34)
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

In this prayer from the cross, Jesus not only shows us that God forgives, but Jesus gives us the means to a mature forgiveness, a forgiveness that gives us the ability to relate to all people who ever sin. People do not know what they are doing. Don’t take my word for it, Chefmom, confirm this in looking at your own past sins and those who sinned against you. Look for it. When I look in this way, I see that the ignorance and/or blindness is always there.

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks.
I’m not thinking on forgiveness, I’m thinking on the question the OP asked. I don’t want to keep using priests as an example, it could be anyone in “Authority” that knows and teaches what they (or maybe they don’t) believe is a mortal sin. So when they chose to sin, and they did, were they knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

To me, a person “knowing” that something is the category of “mortal sin” is only part of “knowing” that an act is a serious sin. To know that a sin is serious, a person has to be aware of the consequences, the hurt, caused by their act, and knows that such hurt is of great importance. In my observation, sin only happens when ignorance and/or blindness is a factor. A person with years of church teaching has not necessarily developed empathy, and is still subject to automatic blindness.

Shall we address another example?

 

[chefmomster2]

Since I am really only speaking in terms of observation, I still think it would be most fruitful to observe an actual or hypothetical occurrence, and try to determine if ignorance and/or blindness is a factor.

I plan to! I am trying to make sure I have a clear understanding of our terms, that’s all. I have a couple more question that I’ll post a bit later. Thanks!

 

[simpleas]

To me, a person “knowing” that something is the category of “mortal sin” is only part of “knowing” that an act is a serious sin. To know that a sin is serious, a person has to be aware of the consequences, the hurt, caused by their act, and knows that such hurt is of great importance. In my observation, sin only happens when ignorance and/or blindness is a factor. A person with years of church teaching has not necessarily developed empathy, and is still subject to automatic blindness.

Shall we address another example?

If I gave another example you’ll just say it’s blindness, or lack of empathy…

I have seen people’s lack of empathy first hand, so I know people think about others differently, they didn’t hate each other,(they’d say it, but I don’t think they meant it deep down) they just thought each was worthless in their eyes.

So every sin is in effect a fault in our conscience, so we could never knowingly and willingly reject God…But very easily reject each other. But then rejecting one another is also rejecting God, that’s if people believe in the one God of the universe and not a God they have created to meet their needs…

 

[Aloysium]

In addition to recent comments, it’s good to remind ourselves of:

Matt 19: 16 A man approached him and said, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?” 17 Jesus said, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There’s only one who is good. If you want to enter eternal life, keep the commandments.” 18 The man said, “Which ones?” Then Jesus said, “Don’t commit murder. Don’t commit adultery. Don’t steal. Don’t give false testimony. 19 Honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.” 20 The young man replied, “I’ve kept all these. What am I still missing?” 21 Jesus said, “If you want to be complete, go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor. Then you will have treasure in heaven. And come follow me.” 22 But when the young man heard this, he went away saddened, because he had many possessions.

Mark 10:17 As Jesus continued down the road, a man ran up, knelt before him, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to obtain eternal life?” 18 Jesus replied, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except the one God. 19 You know the commandments: Don’t commit murder. Don’t commit adultery. Don’t steal. Don’t give false testimony. Don’t cheat. Honor your father and mother.” 20 “Teacher,” he responded, “I’ve kept all of these things since I was a boy.” 21 Jesus looked at him carefully and loved him. He said, “You are lacking one thing. Go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor. Then you will have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.” 22 But the man was dismayed at this statement and went away saddened, because he had many possessions.

Luke 18: 18 A certain ruler asked Jesus, “Good Teacher, what must I do to obtain eternal life?” 19 Jesus replied, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except the one God. 20 You know the commandments: Don’t commit adultery. Don’t murder. Don’t steal. Don’t give false testimony. Honor your father and mother.” 21 Then the ruler said, “I’ve kept all of these things since I was a boy.” 22 When Jesus heard this, he said, “There’s one more thing. Sell everything you own and distribute the money to the poor. Then you will have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.” 23 When he heard these words, the man became sad because he was extremely rich.

If we want to bring our “camel” along, regardless of what it is, we won’t be able to get through the eye of that needle.

 

[chefmomster2]

… when He created us, knew that we would sin, and knew that we would learn from our sin. Then, He created us anyway.

AGREED

Abba I experience in my prayer life is not subject to “taking offense” in an emotional way.

AGREED God does not “take offense”. We offend by breaking relationship with Him.

However, our first calling in the matter (other than protecting those who are in harm’s way!) is to forgive the person we hold something against.

AGREED WITH RESERVATIONS This is a requirement after the sin against us. It is not an element of that sin itself.

Does Abba, through Jesus, ask us to forgive those we hold something against, yet not do this very act of forgiveness? To me, that does not compute.

AGREED WITH RESERVATIONS God forgives all sin. He is merciful. But, a person can refuse to accept forgiveness. In this case, the offended has done their duty in forgiving, but relationship is not restored.

English Standard Version(Luke 23:34)
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments. In this prayer from the cross, Jesus not only shows us that God forgives, but Jesus gives us the means to a mature forgiveness, a forgiveness that gives us the ability to relate to all people who ever sin. People do not know what they are doing.

AGREED WITH RESERVATION If the soldiers refuse to accept God’s mercy/forgiveness there is no change in relationship.

In my observation, there is never full knowledge, nor full consent (because consent also has a knowledge component).

NOT AGREED These are clearly two separate issues. I’ll post it by itself later. (Or you can agree to consider them separately, whichever you prefer.)

Yes, we have our own consciences triggered when we experience or observe sin,

NOT AGREED This is about the order of things. Another post.

and such triggering leads to our desire to have sin punished.

NOT AGREED We would have FAR fewer trials if this were so. The guilty would ALWAYS confess to be punished and relieve their consciences.

Blindness and ignorance are a factor in all sin, the way I see it.

NOT AGREED/SPECIAL OBJECTION They must be considered, but they are not always present. Isn’t this at the root of our disagreement? To win your argument you must show that your personal observation holds sway or we are at an impasse. This is NOT my observation and, I believe, not the opinion of our Church, but I won’t presume to speak for her.

We can continue with the theft example you provided, we can discuss Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, or any other historical person, or we can simply make up a new story. Which would you prefer?

The theft example is fine. It doesn’t really matter. But I am not quite ready. IMHO we need to resolve at least the issue of the order of things. What happens first, etc.