meltzerboy
New member
Yes, a somewhat flippant comment of mine to ease the seriousness of the discussion. However, it is my personal belief that animals do go to heaven.
- Status
P
PeterJohn
Guest
I think all evil, and sufferings are a lack of something.
Sickness is a lack of health, death a lack of life, evil a lack of good, hokomai is a person with a lack of faith. This world is waaaaay more good then evil and I can prove it. Just point out something negative and I’ll show you 2 positive things
then we can become friends and add one more happy thing to the list!
Sickness is a lack of health, death a lack of life, evil a lack of good, hokomai is a person with a lack of faith. This world is waaaaay more good then evil and I can prove it. Just point out something negative and I’ll show you 2 positive things
then we can become friends and add one more happy thing to the list! meltzerboy
New member
I know your intent was non-malicious and in fun, but sickness, death, evil, Hokomai? Not sure he would appreciate being part of THAT group!I think all evil, and sufferings are a lack of something.
Sickness is a lack of health, death a lack of life, evil a lack of good, hokomai is a person with a lack of faith. This world is waaaaay more good then evil and I can prove it. Just point out something negative and I’ll show you 2 positive things
C
catholictiger
Guest
why do you think animals deserve justice love?
meltzerboy
New member
Doesn’t G-d love all the creatures who inhabit His creation and aren’t humans instructed to be good stewards of the Earth, which includes the creatures who dwell in it?
C
catholictiger
Guest
I may be wrong on this, but God doesn’t love animals in the same way he loves humans.
Think about it why is it ok to kill animals for food, but wrong to commit murder.
why don’t animals ahve rights like we do.
why do we say animals don’t go to heaven.
list goes on.
I’m sure God loves them but no in the same way he loves humans.
meltzerboy
New member
You’re right about that, at least according to Christianity and Judaism, but perhaps not the same in Hinduism. Still, even if G-d loves animals less than humans, He still loves and cares for them and expects us to do the same. I believe G-d provides for all His creatures in the present life and the hereafter.
T
tonyrey
Guest
To think otherwise is to be anthropocentric!
C
catholictiger
Guest
I do believe God cares for all his creation, and I think that in God’s grand design of everything everything he loves is taken care of and have good things come out of good. Its just the non believer I was discussing with didn’t like my explanation of things. Thinks that God is just using animals to get to a desired end. While that is partially true I think he is exaggerating how horrible that seems.
we could have the same discussion about how God allows horrible things to happen to Humans, and he could say the same things he has said
the problem of evil is probably the most difficult issue to deal with when dealing with God.
A
Arturo_Ortiz
Guest
catholictiger
I have always said that in order for one to be able to believe in God one must be able to understand suffering. Not knowing why suffering happens and why it’s allowed is the biggest thing that keeps people from believing in God.
I personally think that God lets evil happen because there is something better that will come out. In this time we can do something about the evil as humans.
for example I used to be pretty spoiled as a younger kid and took everything for granted. I eas used to have my mom or someone else buy me whatever I wanted. After the recession happened my direct family had to move in with an extended family. many households moved together. The good that came out of the recession is that we as a family got closer. The recession forced us to move together and thus we lived more as a family.
I guess that good can be seen with any other things considered evil.
Now as for suffering I know that this can be a way to share Christ’s passion. Many people do redemptive suffering which is kind of what Jesus did. The thing to do I’d to offer up our sufferings by taking up our daily crosses and offer them up to God.
I have always said that in order for one to be able to believe in God one must be able to understand suffering. Not knowing why suffering happens and why it’s allowed is the biggest thing that keeps people from believing in God.
I personally think that God lets evil happen because there is something better that will come out. In this time we can do something about the evil as humans.
for example I used to be pretty spoiled as a younger kid and took everything for granted. I eas used to have my mom or someone else buy me whatever I wanted. After the recession happened my direct family had to move in with an extended family. many households moved together. The good that came out of the recession is that we as a family got closer. The recession forced us to move together and thus we lived more as a family.
I guess that good can be seen with any other things considered evil.
Now as for suffering I know that this can be a way to share Christ’s passion. Many people do redemptive suffering which is kind of what Jesus did. The thing to do I’d to offer up our sufferings by taking up our daily crosses and offer them up to God.
H
Hokomai
Guest
I agree with your third paragraph, and in my view no Christian has yet produced a reconciliation of the obvious fact of innocent animal pain and suffering and their belief in an all-loving God. You asked why I think animals deserve justice and love. I do not. It is not I who proposes the existence of an all-loving and all-powerful God. It is you, but you now sau God is all-loving except in relation to animals. or have i misunderstood?. You also say I exaggerate. May I ask in what, exactly?
T
tonyrey
Guest
“imagine” <> “explain how”.
So simple it would eliminate the value, joy and beauty of nature altogether.
Anyone who claims to understand the ultimate nature of reality is a lunatic!
H
Hokomai
Guest
Reality is reality. It does not have a nature of any sort, especially an ultimate one. But maybe that was your point.
T
tonyrey
Guest
If reality doesn’t have a nature it doesn’t exist!Reality is reality. It does not have a nature of any sort, especially an ultimate one. But maybe that was your point.
- Reality is reality but it need not be as it is - unless one believes in physical necessity for which there is no rational evidence.
- How could it be proved that this universe is the only possible universe or that the laws of nature couldn’t be different?
- Must physical constants have their present values? If so why?
H
Hokomai
Guest
What is a nature, in the sense you have used it and how can reality have one?If reality doesn’t have a nature it doesn’t exist!
- Reality is reality but it need not be as it is - unless one believes in physical necessity for which there is no rational evidence.
- How could it be proved that this universe is the only possible universe or that the laws of nature couldn’t be different?
- Must physical constants have their present values? If so why?
C
catholictiger
Guest
God loves animals just not in the same way that he loves human beings (don’t take my word for it I could be wrong) Just because God is all loving doesn’t mean he has to stop all pain and suffering for all creators, I don’t know much about biology or anything but I’m sure there are plenty of animals who put themselves through suffering to bring about a good. Its very possible he does this for animals, I just personally don’t see why it would be necessary for something that I think is a simply non rational reactionary creator, who may simply see pain and suffering as something they have to deal with. If animals were rational creators then you would have a point. But animals aren’t rational creators like humans.
you are making a huge deal with the animals pain and suffering thing, if you were to understand catholic theology you would be better to focus on human suffering.
C
catholictiger
Guest
I agree with this sorry if I didn’t make this clear in my posts, suffering of animals is a different issue all together, because animals don’t have immortal souls and aren’t rational, which throws a curveball into this issue.
H
Hokomai
Guest
I don’t know about ‘making’ a ‘huge deal’ of it. It is a huge deal. There is no doubt about the suffering endured by animals. Much produces no good for the individual, or even the species. It is not hard to think of examples. Darwin himself cited the impossibility of a loving God creating a caterpillar to spend its life being eaten alive, inside out, by a parasitic wasp, as a reason he found it difficult, or impossible, to accept there is such a God. I understand Catholic theology to the extent that I know that if you ignore this issue it goes away. But the onus is still on you to explain that it is in any way possible that a loving God could allow trillions of individual animals to suffer pain prior to the evolution of people. Saying ‘it is a mystery’ is another way of saying ‘I can’t’. And unlike other ‘mysteries’ this one includes an observable and obvious fact. It requires explanation if your belief in a loving God is to be congruent with observed reality.
T
tonyrey
Guest
:
" The inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing" : Merriam-Webster%between%
"Ultimate reality is a term used in *philosophy *to indicate the underlying nature of reality"! -wikipedia
For materialists the basic reality is matter.
For Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hindus the basic reality is God.
C
catholictiger
Guest
why do you think animals should be brought tot he same level of humans, and why is it such a huge deal that animals suffer?
- Status