Why does God allow this to happen?

[Dorothy]

God has infinite love for us, and wants us to be happy with Him forever. All we have to do is meditate on the crucifix to understand that love.

 

[Robertanthony]

God has infinite love for us, and wants us to be happy with Him forever. All we have to do is meditate on the crucifix to understand that love.

God looks like an adult who lacked attention as a child. Every solution to any of life’s deepest mysteries and problems starts with giving God attention. Then he deigns to enlighten our minds. God is not a fan of poetic justice, he is a fan of his own splendor. That’s the only sensible answer to OP’s query. God wants his glory, he’ll do what it takes to get it.

 

[tonyrey]

God looks like an adult who lacked attention as a child. Every solution to any of life’s deepest mysteries and problems starts with giving God attention. Then he deigns to enlighten our minds. God is not a fan of poetic justice, he is a fan of his own splendor.

You obviously don’t understand the meaning of love…

 

[tonyrey]

I am struggling with whether God has any emotional attachment to us at all. One thing I do feel fairly certain of is that He does not control events here on earth. These terrible events are our own doing and so are the wonderful.
I agree with you also that to justify this from a Christian perspective requires some extraordinary spiritual gymnastics.

Are natural disasters our own doing? Is the exquisite beauty of nature our own doing? It requires incredible spiritual gymnastics to imagine we are responsible and God is impotent! How do you reconcile such a contradiction?

 

[Robertanthony]

You obviously don’t understand the meaning of love…

Being concerned with another’s well-being, protecting him/her in case of danger, being there to comfort and encourage, wanting what’s best for them. God is impassible, his conception of love must be extremly limited and narrow. Through what you could call my relationship with God, I’ve learned what is not love. Just like a father who would desert me and my mom if I were a child, and who’d fail to pick me up on Friday night and miss my birthday would teach me what being a good father is not. Plus the SOB is crazy about his new wife and son. I feel sorry for the broken-hearted people who turn to God expecting something. Might as well go to a dry well.

 

[Robertanthony]

Are natural disasters our own doing? Is the exquisite beauty of nature our own doing? It requires incredible spiritual gymnastics to imagine we are responsible and God is impotent! How do you reconcile such a contradiction?

One could argue God got the ball rolling and is watching, worried as to when he’s going to get the full glory he (thinks he) deserves. Jesus’ incarantion and the whole plan of salvation was again about God’s glory. We serve as mere understudies in this divine comedy, he has the leading role, all the light’s on him. He wants to get us excited about him.

 

[empther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
I am struggling with whether God has any emotional attachment to us at all. One thing I do feel fairly certain of is that He does not control events here on earth. These terrible events are our own doing and so are the wonderful.
I agree with you also that to justify this from a Christian perspective requires some extraordinary spiritual gymnastics.

Are natural disasters our own doing? Is the exquisite beauty of nature our own doing? It requires incredible spiritual gymnastics to imagine we are responsible and God is impotent! How do you reconcile such a contradiction?

Neither God nor we cause natural disasters. They happen by themselves.

 

[tonyrey]

I think we disagree on what omnipotence entails. The standard definition apologists use is that an omnipotent being can do anything that is logically possible. In other words, as long as the action isn’t self-contradictory, such as creating a 4-sided triangle, God should be able to do it.

“Knowledge of what is feasible”, then, boils down to knowing what is logically possible. This is nice, because humans and God are actually on the same level in this regard. Even God can’t falsify our mathematical proofs, for example. So as long as we can imagine a world in a consistent manner (i.e., in a non-contradictory way), it must be within God’s power to make that world a reality.

Logical possibility is not the issue at all. Consistency implies self-restraint and limitation of further action. A competent inventor doesn’t wreck his machine by constantly interfering with it. To suspend the laws of nature too often would defeat the purpose of creating a predictable universe. That is the reality of the matter and to think otherwise is sheer fantasy. If you cannot produce a feasible blueprint of an earthly Utopia your objections are worthless.

 

[tonyrey]

Neither God nor we cause natural disasters. They happen by themselves.

“happen” is the keyword. They are, to use St Thomas’s term, “incidental”- which amounts to being accidental byproducts, permitted but not willed by God. It is folly to imagine nothing need go wrong in an immensely complex system.

 

[Oreoracle]

To suspend the laws of nature too often would defeat the purpose of creating a predictable universe. That is the reality of the matter and to think otherwise is sheer fantasy. If you cannot produce a feasible blueprint of an earthly Utopia your objections are worthless.

It wouldn’t really make a difference to me if there were no consistency to the universe, and everything were just a continuous miracle. (Don’t some denominations even believe that creation is a continuous miracle?) That seems a small price to pay to abolish all evil.

But miracles aren’t even necessary here. In a deterministic universe, everything would be determined by the initial conditions. God, being the mathematician he is, would have no trouble adjusting the initial conditions until it’s certain that no unfortunate coincidences will occur. He might have to make the universe simpler to do so (we don’t know without carrying out the calculations), but again, that seems a small price to pay for an evil-free universe.

After all, just as an inventor doesn’t want to interfere with his invention constantly, he also wants to make it as efficient and sleek as possible. The existence of evil is a serious blemish in the universe and a waste of efficiency.

 

[Dorothy]

God looks like an adult who lacked attention as a child. Every solution to any of life’s deepest mysteries and problems starts with giving God attention. Then he deigns to enlighten our minds. God is not a fan of poetic justice, he is a fan of his own splendor. That’s the only sensible answer to OP’s query. God wants his glory, he’ll do what it takes to get it.

We are finite creatures and very limited in our understanding. The Lord is infinite, and sees the whole picture…his perfect plan for us out of love.

 

[Robertanthony]

Logical possibility is not the issue at all. Consistency implies self-restraint and limitation of further action. A competent inventor doesn’t wreck his machine by constantly interfering with it. To suspend the laws of nature too often would defeat the purpose of creating a predictable universe. That is the reality of the matter and to think otherwise is sheer fantasy. If you cannot produce a feasible blueprint of an earthly Utopia your objections are worthless.

1/3 of the created angels considered God someone whom they’d rather not have rule over them, perhaps 1/3 of mankind will be damned, maybe more, for “Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction”, would God be ok with 2/3 of his human creation in Hell? If what we have is God’s best, nothing can be tweaked, then maybe, if he was both wise AND prescient, he should have dropped the whole project and remained solo forever. Creation was not necessary, it was God’s grand idea. Purely altruistic project. No self interest whatsoever.

 

[Amandil]

Being concerned with another’s well-being…

How do you define “well being”? Is getting everything you want when you want it “well being”?

protecting him/her in case of danger…

What about the responsibility of protecting yourself from danger? What about the responsibility of others not to commit acts which harm others?

…being there to comfort and encourage,

What if “comfort” and “encouragement” are the very things stifling your spiritual maturity? Are you seeking God to have a relationship with Him? Or do you only seek God to get what you want out of Him?

…wanting what’s best for them.

This presumes that you are in a position to know what’s “best” for you. Sometimes what’s best for someone is the most painful, like a father pouring out all of his alcoholic son’s alcohol and hauling him to AA.

God is impassible, his conception of love must be extremly limited and narrow.

It’s precisely the opposite. God’s love is incredibly dynamic.

Through what you could call my relationship with God, I’ve learned what is not love. Just like a father who would desert me and my mom if I were a child, and who’d fail to pick me up on Friday night and miss my birthday would teach me what being a good father is not. Plus the SOB is crazy about his new wife and son. I feel sorry for the broken-hearted people who turn to God expecting something. Might as well go to a dry well.

Then you don’t understand love or God.

Nor do you understand what C.S. Lewis called “the law of undulation”.

(From my personal experience and not at all to boast) frankly I’ve been in a state of spiritual aridity and dryness for over a year now where I have had absolutely no real sense of God at all.

This has in no way stifled or hampered my faith that God is because I am absolutely confirmed in the truth of God.

But this at first was a great challenge to my senses because, as you, I originally thought that God had abandoned me because of my sinfulness. I was reassured by my parish priest.

As humans we all go through emotional peaks and troughs, its a natural part of our existence. When we are in an emotional peak everything is easy, even resistance to temptations. Yet when we are in a trough, when we are in an emotional state where we feel low, or even where we feel nothing at all, that’s when we are put to the test.

God does want us to be children in regards to our faith, but he wants us to be mature in regards to our spiritual growth. And since we are all spiritual infants we necessarily need to learn to walk without God holding our hand every step of the way. Yes, he holds our hands at first, giving us those sweet touches of His grace which gives us easy conquest over temptations, but He never maintains that for long. Sooner or later He removes the emotional and spiritual supports, if not totally at least from our conscious experience and, like any good parent, expects us to be able to walk on our own.

He does this so that we ever more earnestly seek Him and His will in all things absent of any spiritual supports, through constant prayer and acts of love for His sake and the sake of others alone and not simply because we will get His help in return.

I’m sorry, Robert, but your going about the problem the wrong way.

 

[Robertanthony]

We are finite creatures and very limited in our understanding. The Lord is infinite, and sees the whole picture…his perfect plan for us out of love.

There is nothing remotely trustworthy in God. He’s everything and its opposite, he lacks basic internal coherence. He asks Israelites to squash babies on rocks, is satisfied with his righteous servant Lot, even though Lot does some shady stuff with his daughter(s) when he has a drink too many, you have the poor father expecting his prodigal son, then the evil god planning Job’s destruction to test Job’s love for him, if he’s all-knowing as omniscient would suggest, why the need to torment Job for something God already knows?

 

[Robertanthony]

How do you define “well being”? Is getting everything you want when you want it “well being”?

Let’s say kids gang up to bully my kid, it won’t last two days. Promise to God.

What about the responsibility of protecting yourself from danger? What about the responsibility of others not to commit acts which harm others?

Don’t know what you’re saying.

What if “comfort” and “encouragement” are the very things stifling your spiritual maturity? Are you seeking God to have a relationship with Him? Or do you only seek God to get what you want out of Him?

I want to live a satisfying life. I lack the basic capacity to do that, I’m extremely limited talent-wise, skill-wise, luck-wise, I’m turning to my daddy in the sky for a life worth living. My heart took one hell of a beating, thanks to God’s genius plan, now I’m exasperated and would gladly sell our wonderful creator for a plate of lentils.

This presumes that you are in a position to know what’s “best” for you. Sometimes what’s best for someone is the most painful, like a father pouring out all of his alcoholic son’s alcohol and hauling him to AA.

I know what’s best for me, so does God. Holding back what would give me a long sought-after second lease on life is a game God enjoys playing. I have years of a mortifyin past to freaking avenge. He has the key that will open life’s doors, but he “loves” me way too much to give me the damn key. Take the key from God’ holy hand and you’ve just made it extremely hard for our loving God to destroy me or to ask his partner in crime, Satan, to destroy me.

It’s precisely the opposite. God’s love is incredibly dynamic.

Yeah boring monks singing boring Gregorian chants all day. Sounds terribly dynamic! They don’t quite look exhilirated!

Then you don’t understand love or God.

I understand love. God is a bit of a mystery, but what I do know about him, I hate.

Nor do you understand what C.S. Lewis called “the law of undulation”.

(From my personal experience and not at all to boast) frankly I’ve been in a state of spiritual aridity and dryness for over a year now where I have had absolutely no real sense of God at all.

This has in no way stifled or hampered my faith that God is because I am absolutely confirmed in the truth of God.

But this at first was a great challenge to my senses because, as you, I originally thought that God had abandoned me because of my sinfulness. I was reassured by my parish priest.

As humans we all go through emotional peaks and troughs, its a natural part of our existence. When we are in an emotional peak everything is easy, even resistance to temptations. Yet when we are in a trough, when we are in an emotional state where we feel low, or even where we feel nothing at all, that’s when we are put to the test.

God does want us to be children in regards to our faith, but he wants us to be mature in regards to our spiritual growth. And since we are all spiritual infants we necessarily need to learn to walk without God holding our hand every step of the way. Yes, he holds our hands at first, giving us those sweet touches of His grace which gives us easy conquest over temptations, but He never maintains that for long. Sooner or later He removes the emotional and spiritual supports, if not totally at least from our conscious experience and, like any good parent, expects us to be able to walk on our own.

He does this so that we ever more earnestly seek Him and His will in all things absent of any spiritual supports, through constant prayer and acts of love for His sake and the sake of others alone and not simply because we will get His help in return.

I’m sorry, Robert, but your going about the problem the wrong way.

 

[Amandil]

Let’s say kids gang up to bully my kid, it won’t last two days. Promise to God.

What about the kids responsibility not to bully your kid? What about their parents responsibility to teach them not to bully?

Don’t know what you’re saying.

But you apparently know so much to say that you know God is completely and utterly indifferent? How does that add up, precisely?

I want to live a satisfying life. I lack the basic capacity to do that, I’m extremely limited talent-wise, skill-wise, luck-wise, I’m turning to my daddy in the sky for a life worth living.

Ok, who doesn’t want to live a satisfying life? So you lack it, that means it’s God’s fault?

How so? What exactly are you seeking to be attached to and yet aren’t getting? And how do you even know that it will make you “happy” if you get it?

My heart took one hell of a beating, thanks to God’s genius plan, now I’m exasperated and would gladly sell our wonderful creator for a plate of lentils.

How? And again how can you blame God for the free-will decisions of others?

I know what’s best for me, so does God. Holding back what would give me a long sought-after second lease on life is a game God enjoys playing. I have years of a mortifyin past to freaking avenge. He has the key that will open life’s doors, but he “loves” me way too much to give me the damn key. Take the key from God’ holy hand and you’ve just made it extremely hard for our loving God to destroy me or to ask his partner in crime, Satan, to destroy me.

OK, I’m going to be brutally honest here. This sounds like the sophisticated rant of a spoiled toddler who’s parents is refusing to buy them that toy that they want from the store. So instead of being grateful for what you do have (which is in itself a pure gift from God), you rage and have a temper tantrum because you’re not getting what you think is your due.

That’s not humility; that’s pride, egocentrism and self-will.

I understand love. God is a bit of a mystery, but what I do know about him, I hate.

Then you really do lack wisdom.

 

[Robertanthony]

What about the kids responsibility not to bully your kid? What about their parents responsibility to teach them not to bully?.

Ideally they should teach them to respect others, but the point is, if someone attacks my kid, I will not let it happen twice.

But you apparently know so much to say that you know God is completely and utterly indifferent? How does that add up, precisely?.

God is a stingy meanie with some, exceedingly lavish and generous with others. If I have a father who treats me like dirt and treats my brother like royalty, then obviously my father is not monolithic. More often than not, God perfectly fits the deist’s idea of a god who doesn’t intervene in the affairs of men.

Ok, who doesn’t want to live a satisfying life? So you lack it, that means it’s God’s fault?
How so? What exactly are you seeking to be attached to and yet aren’t getting? And how do you even know that it will make you “happy” if you get it?.

Nobody. God knew what my life would be like, hell he made me an inferior man with my parents’ inferior genetic material, he’s the one who snatched me from the womb of nonexistence for this, so yeah, it’s God’s “bright” idea and fault, ultimately. I wanted natural gifts, talents, a personality, a rewarding career, instead I am a failure in almost every aspect of life. ADD doesn’t help, neither having near zero learning capacity, having a bigot, alcoholic, emotionally frozen daddy did not help, a depressed, needy mom either. God is behind my mess of a life, having made me inadequately equipped to face life was sure to result in failure. Money is now the only way to make this life livable. I guess it must be my fault if I’m excessively shy, I have anxiety and depression, socially I’m pathetic etc. Quite a gift from God, I tell ya.

How? And again how can you blame God for the free-will decisions of others?

I’m cheaply made by our wonderful God, ill equipped to face life and/or people. Send a Down syndrome teen to a regular school and see what happens.

OK, I’m going to be brutally honest here. This sounds like the sophisticated rant of a spoiled toddler who’s parents is refusing to buy them that toy that they want from the store. So instead of being grateful for what you do have (which is in itself a pure gift from God), you rage and have a temper tantrum because you’re not getting what you think is your due.

That’s not humility; that’s pride, egocentrism and self-will. .

“Lack of love invariably turns into will to power.” I learned about helplessnes, feeling unwanted, always having a bleak, scary future in front of me, worried about people humiliating me etc. Feeling of inadequacy, sense of shame etc. God has been a stingy meanie, giving me life was sure to result in torment, loneliness and stagnation. He said “amen” to that. Loving, right?

Then you really do lack wisdom.

Maybe I see a facet of God which you refuse to see. But since God is a big meanie and will torture people eternally, it may be best to side with him and to tell him what he wants to hear.

 

[oldcelt]

Ideally they should teach them to respect others, but the point is, if someone attacks my kid, I will not let it happen twice.

God is a stingy meanie with some, exceedingly lavish and generous with others. If I have a father who treats me like dirt and treats my brother like royalty, then obviously my father is not monolithic. More often than not, God perfectly fits the deist’s idea of a god who doesn’t intervene in the affairs of men.

** Nobody. God knew what my life would be like, hell he made me an inferior man with my parents’ inferior genetic material, he’s the one who snatched me from the womb of nonexistence for this, so yeah, it’s God’s “bright” idea and fault, ultimately. I wanted natural gifts, talents, a personality, a rewarding career, instead I am a failure in almost every aspect of life. ADD doesn’t help, neither having near zero learning capacity, having a bigot, alcoholic, emotionally frozen daddy did not help, a depressed, needy mom either. God is behind my mess of a life, having made me inadequately equipped to face life was sure to result in failure. Money is now the only way to make this life livable. I guess it must be my fault if I’m excessively shy, I have anxiety and depression, socially I’m pathetic etc. Quite a gift from God, I tell ya.**

I’m cheaply made by our wonderful God, ill equipped to face life and/or people. Send a Down syndrome teen to a regular school and see what happens.

“Lack of love invariably turns into will to power.” I learned about helplessnes, feeling unwanted, always having a bleak, scary future in front of me, worried about people humiliating me etc. Feeling of inadequacy, sense of shame etc. God has been a stingy meanie, giving me life was sure to result in torment, loneliness and stagnation. He said “amen” to that. Loving, right?

Maybe I see a facet of God which you refuse to see. But since God is a big meanie and will torture people eternally, it may be best to side with him and to tell him what he wants to hear.

You might be overlooking a talent for say, writing. You paragraphs are well constructed and easy to understand. If you like fiction, then I hope you have a vivid imagination. Don’t give in.
Myself, I’ve published a number of histories (American), so I’m as dull as dry toast.

John

 

[Robertanthony]

You might be overlooking a talent for say, writing. You paragraphs are well constructed and easy to understand. If you like fiction, then I hope you have a vivid imagination. Don’t give in.
Myself, I’ve published a number of histories (American), so I’m as dull as dry toast.

John

Thanks. At some point, writing saved me from implosion. Growing up I felt generally lonely and misunderstood, being able to express myself and my thoughts as clearly and as precisely as I could became vital. Writing is more somehing I do to preserve the last bit of mental health I have left, as a source of livelihood, I don’t see that happening. But I appreciate the compliment.

 

[Amandil]

Ideally they should teach them to respect others, but the point is, if someone attacks my kid, I will not let it happen twice.

If someone attacks my kid, I teach him how to make sure that it won’t happen twice.

God is a stingy meanie with some, exceedingly lavish and generous with others.

So, because you think that you’re not being treated “fairly”, you’re going to claim that God is a “stingy meanie”. That doesn’t sound at all adolescent.

If I have a father who treats me like dirt and treats my brother like royalty, then obviously my father is not monolithic. More often than not, God perfectly fits the deist’s idea of a god who doesn’t intervene in the affairs of men.

Envious as well as prideful. There’s an obvious reason why God won’t give you everything you want. You’re not even asking for the right things, much less for the right reasons or the right ends.

Nobody. God knew what my life would be like, hell he made me an inferior man with my parents’ inferior genetic material, he’s the one who snatched me from the womb of nonexistence for this, so yeah, it’s God’s “bright” idea and fault, ultimately.

Yes. And you’re the only one this has ever happened to.

FYI, I’m so sure that you have suffered so much more in your life than Christ did.

I wanted natural gifts, talents, a personality, a rewarding career, instead I am a failure in almost every aspect of life.

Again, all I see is an adolescent rant with so serious attempt to take responsibility.

ADD doesn’t help, neither having near zero learning capacity, having a bigot, alcoholic, emotionally frozen daddy did not help, a depressed, needy mom either. God is behind my mess of a life, having made me inadequately equipped to face life was sure to result in failure.

My parents divorced when I was two(both drug addicts). Mother continued to used drugs and my step-father was an alcoholic as well.

Blaming God for your circumstances is absurd. There are millions of people who don’t even have a computer to come on CA and complain about how “******” God is treating them. I know poor people living on the streets here around where I live who have no money, don’t know where their next meal is coming from, yet are totally free and love God.

You’ll claim that this is “ignorance”, and that’s frankly bull. They are utterly free, free from any attachment to any “thing”, and they are totally happy.

Money is now the only way to make this life livable.

Then you’re chasing after the wind. Good luck with that.

I guess it must be my fault if I’m excessively shy, I have anxiety and depression, socially I’m pathetic etc. Quite a gift from God, I tell ya.

Your anxiety is because you’re frustrated. You’re frustrated because you’re angry because you’re not getting what you want. You want to stop feeling anxious and depressed, stop chasing the wind.

I’m cheaply made by our wonderful God, ill equipped to face life and/or people. Send a Down syndrome teen to a regular school and see what happens.

In my area they do. You’re “equipped” fine to face life and/or people. You just reject it because then when you fail, and you expect to fail, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

“Lack of love invariably turns into will to power.” I learned about helplessnes, feeling unwanted, always having a bleak, scary future in front of me, worried about people humiliating me etc. Feeling of inadequacy, sense of shame etc. God has been a stingy meanie, giving me life was sure to result in torment, loneliness and stagnation. He said “amen” to that. Loving, right?

Again, you think that you’re the only one who has every dealt with what you deal with? You think that you were the only one ever picked on, humiliated, unwanted, etc?

Look at what you’re demanding from God and you wonder why God is “stingy”? Envy, pride, ungratefulness, self-hatred.

All God hears from you is “me, me, me.”

Maybe I see a facet of God which you refuse to see.

Right back atcha’…

But since God is a big meanie and will torture people eternally, it may be best to side with him and to tell him what he wants to hear.

Yeah, better to speak of the God of the universe like a counter clerk at a fast food restaurant who owes you precisely what you “paid” for by being born.