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akck
Guest
Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?
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FaithHopeCharity
Guest
Catholic Answers has a really good video to answer your question.
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Mmarco
Guest
My answer is the following; God wants to save as many souls as possible, but He respects man’s free will. If God saved us against our free will, He would destroy our essence of human beings. We are free to love Him or to despise Him.This means that God has to convince us to abandon evil and sin, and the fear of damnation in Hell may have a role in man’s choice to abandon sin, expecially when he is still much involved in sin.
This is the reason why God tells us that Hell exists and that many will go to Hell;
since God never lies, He created also the souls who will go to Hell.
In summary, if God had not created the souls who will go to Hell, fewer souls would have been saved.
Besides, also unbelievers may help a person to understand better the consequences of sin and lack of faith.
For example, when I discuss with an atheist, I understad more deeply the emptiness and inconsistency of atheism, which strengthens my faith.
Everything was created for believers and believers were created for God.
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Vico
Guest
A person would not be able to have the Beatific Vision without first choosing charity over malice.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
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John10
Guest
It would almost be an analogy to say
“Why does people have children, when there is a danger that they turn against their own parents, or do evil things ?”
“Why does people have children, when there is a danger that they turn against their own parents, or do evil things ?”
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Lasergeek64
Guest
Free will, baby.
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Gorgias
Guest
My take on it is that He doesn’t. There’s a whole debate about whether God’s omniscience includes what’s called “middle knowledge” (that is, stuff that isn’t real, but which could’ve been real if things were otherwise). There’s a perspective that claims that this isn’t included in omniscience, and it doesn’t mean that God isn’t omniscient if He doesn’t know the stuff that will never occur.
(Since I’m a Pittsburgh Steelers fan, my sarcastic way of describing this is to ask “does God know which Cleveland Browns player scored the winning touchdown in last year’s Super Bowl? Of course not – 'cause they’ve never played in one! But, that doesn’t mean that God’s not omniscient – just that the Browns are hapless!”)
So, I would assert that, until it’s God’s will that a person will be created (at any point in the history of the universe), the ‘knowledge’ of the state of their salvation is a counterfactual – it’s “middle knowledge”. And therefore, until He wills them to be created, He doesn’t have the opportunity to be saying “I’m going to create them, knowing that they’re going to hell.” Only once their creation is assured, does God’s omniscience kick in, and He knows. But, this doesn’t make him the kind of tyrant that Calvin envisions – a God who creates in order to condemn.
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Latin
Guest
LET’S SEE WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAY ABOUT IT
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24). – God respects our aided free will.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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The Father William Most Collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination
I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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CCCS 1990-1991; "Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.
Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide dogma).
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John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.
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While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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God bless
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Mmarco
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I do not understand why you have sent me this list; what’s your point?
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Latin
Guest
My point is @Mmarco to show you, we cannot save ourselves, we cannot keep ourselves saved.
So, it is God’s responsibility to save the entire human race because our fate/ destiny is not in us, it is in God.
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GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SALVATION OF THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
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Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma ).
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It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every receiver, there is no salvation without it. – Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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“Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved Matt.10:22, 24:13, which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand Rom.14:4.”
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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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God bless
So, it is God’s responsibility to save the entire human race because our fate/ destiny is not in us, it is in God.
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GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SALVATION OF THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).
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Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma ).
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It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of Final Perseverance, which is an INFALLIBLE PROTECTION of the salvation of every receiver, there is no salvation without it. – Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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“Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved Matt.10:22, 24:13, which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand Rom.14:4.”
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CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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God bless
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Mmarco
Guest
I perfectly know and I have never said the opposite.
The point is that God does not want to save us against our free will, which is stated clearly by the Concilium of Trent, session VI, chapter V:
“while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it.”
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Latin
Guest
Yes @Mmarco, we are able to reject God graces, but no one rejected the grace of God in the past whom He want to save.
And no one will reject the grace of God in the future whom He want to save because His call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. – CCCS 1996-1998.
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THE OTHER REASONS
CCCS 1990-1991; In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide dogma).
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De Veritatis: Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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Because God himself operates in our will He causes all our actions and we all freely do what we want to do and we don’t even realize, we are freely cooperating with His graces. – CCC 307, CCC 308, etc.
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The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect.
The second quality of predestination, the definiteness of the number of the elect, follows naturally from the first.
For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the predestined is unchangeable, then the number of the predestined must likewise be unchangeable and definite, subject neither to additions nor to cancellations.
Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of certitude in God’s knowledge and would destroy His omniscience. Furthermore, the very nature of omniscience demands that not only the abstract number of the elect, but also the individuals with their names.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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CCC 2022 The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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As we see above @Mmarco, if even one person in Christian history, would reject the grace of God whom He want to save, He would instantly lose His omniscience. – We can be sure this will never happen.
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God bless
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Mmarco
Guest
I have never said someone rejected the grace of God in the past whom He want to save.Mmarco:
Yes @Mmarco, we are able to reject God graces, but no one rejected the grace of God in the past whom He want to save.
However, I would like to report some verses from Saint Faustina’s diary, which she attributes to Jesus:
Ingratitude in return for so many graces is My Heart’s constant food, on the part of [such] a chosen soul. Their love is lukewarm, and My Heart cannot bear it; these souls force Me to reject them. Others distrust My goodness and have no desire to experience that sweet intimacy in their own hearts, but go in search of Me, off in the distance, and do not find Me. This distrust of My goodness hurts Me very much. If My death has not convinced you of My love, what will? Often a soul wounds Me mortally, and then no one can comfort Me. They use My graces to offend Me. There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell. The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me. You, who are the dispenser of My mercy, tell all the world about My goodness, and thus you will comfort My Heart.
http://www.seraphim.my/divinemercy/diary/text/DiaryII.htm
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L
Latin
Guest
The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace, (De fide dogma).
CCCS 1990-1991 In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
De Veritatis: Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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Because God himself operates in our will He causes all our actions and we all freely do what we want to do and we don’t even realize, we are freely cooperating with His graces. – CCC 307, CCC 308, etc.
CCCS 1996-1998 His call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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Do you believe @Mmarco, is it possible that in the future someone will reject the grace of God whom He decided to save?
Thank you @Mmarco for your answer in advance.
St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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CCC 2022 The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
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As we see above, Saint Faustina’s above statement totally contradict with Catholic Soteriology. – I’m not surprised that no one have to believe personal revelations.
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God bless
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Mmarco
Guest
I totally agree; God gives the sanctifying grace only to those who freely cooperate with His grace; God has always known who are those who would cooperate with His grace.
I totally agree; God gives the gift of obedience only to those who freely cooperate with His grace; God has always known who are those who would cooperate with His grace.
I totally agree; God does not force our will, because He the gift of obedience only to those who freely cooperate with His grace; God has always known who are those who would cooperate with His grace.
I totally agree; God operates in our will, but He does not force our will because He has always known who are those who would cooperate with His grace.
No, because God has decided to save only those whom He has always known would cooperate with His saving grace.
I disagree; God has freely chosen to create man with a free will and to respect man’s free will. I think that the idea that God could not make His purpose dependent on the foreseen free will of man, represents an inacceptable limit to God’s omnipotence and freedom.
Personally, I do not see any contradictions. It seems to me that you do not accept the idea of man’s free will.
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Gorgias
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He doesn’t. Get ready for a slew of posts about “aided free will.” The argument of “primary causation” and “secondary causation” tends to go nowhere, and just leads to another post or three filled with quotes from the 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia.
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whatistrue
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Yeah; been there, done that, not going back.
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quaestio45
Guest
First, fantastic analogy
.Second, I have a minor objection to raise to this idea, to which I’ve only ever heard before but never had the chance to understand. God is by all accounts an eternal being whose existence is outside of time. As such, he necessarily perceives past, present, and future simultaneously. What that would mean is that the past is real, the present is real, and the future is all real (contrary to presentism) in the eyes of God. Well, clearly that would mean that the act of birth and damnation are to him both real and existing, therefore there can’t be this middle knowledge for him on the subject of salvation at all.
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Gorgias
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Good question on a subtle point!!!
Since God is eternal, we cannot posit this question in terms of a timeline, in the way that we could about you or me. (Hence the reoccurring political question “what did you know, and when did you know it?”)
Rather, I think, we have to consider it in what I’d like to suggest is its ‘metaphysical’ dimension – that is, from the perspective of metaphysical priority, we absolutely can ask about God’s knowledge of every actual event in the created realm! And, since the created realm is created outside of a temporal framework, the question collapses into a tidy one: God’s knowledge of persons’ eternal destinies is not metaphysically prior to the certainty of their existence within the created realm. (Therefore, He does not commit to creating souls which he knows (in a metaphysically prior sense) will be damned.)
The ‘middle knowledge’, then – as you ask about it – isn’t in the context of the “act of birth” or the “act of damnation” (which I’d re-frame as “the actualization of dying in a state of mortal sin”). In fact, both questions (“will quaestio be born?”, “will quaestio die in a state of mortal sin?”) are known to God. (These are known as the “knowledge of vision” or scientia visionis. This is one way that God knows – He has access to this knowledge immediately. The analogy is one of ‘vision’.)
The ‘middle knowledge’ isn’t even the knowledge of what’s possible in the realm of things that are accessible through scientia visionis. This type of knowledge is the scientia simplicis intelligentiae – God knows all that is possible for all actual entities.
The ‘middle knowledge’ falls between these: for things that do not exist, and are therefore not in the realm of possibilities for things that exist… does God know them? (Hence the ‘Cleveland Browns’ example. Those who deny that ‘middle knowledge’ follows from God’s omniscience would say that it’s no problem that God doesn’t know all possibilities for all the things that never exist.)
I think that the implication of the “reality of the future” doesn’t come into play here. I’m comfortable saying that the reality of future actualization is what God knows (since it’s not ‘future’ to Him at all!), and that’s sufficient. When it actualizes, it’s “real” in a certain sense. God knows it as certain in a context that’s outside of that temporal sequence, though.
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quaestio45
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Wait, hold on. The created realm is outside the temporal framework?? This part of your post is confusing me, as this realm is created and most certainly holds itself in time. Did you misword yourself? As I said, this part keeps me from understanding the rest of the post.
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