Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

[Latin]

It seems to me that you do not accept the idea of man’s free will.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH VEHEMENTLY CONDEMNED THE IDEA OF MAN’S UNAIDED FREE WILL. – I accept only man’s aided free will as follows.

The Father William Most Collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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St. Augustine is called, rightly, the Doctor of Grace, for his great work. Augustine showed very well our total dependence on God.

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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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CCCS 1990-1991; "Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.
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While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

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The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24)
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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God bless

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

It seems to me that you do not accept the idea of man’s free will.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH VEHEMENTLY CONDEMNED THE IDEA OF MAN’S UNAIDED FREE WILL. – I accept only man’s aided free will as follows.

Personally, I agree with the idea of aided free will; in fact , our decisions and our will are influenced by our mental status, which is not under our control. For example, when we are frightened or anxious, we do not have the same mental clarity we have when we are perfecly calm, and this affects our decisions. I believe that God helps us in our decisions, but without removing our free will; He gives us the sufficient mental clarity to allow us to have the full possession of our free will.
However I believe that the words form Saint Faustina’s diary I reported in my previous post, are actually the words of Christ and they express perfectly the role of man’s free will.

 

[Latin]

I believe that God helps us in our decisions, but without removing our free will;

Looks like we getting closer to the truth and to man’s aided free will.

When you say @Mmarco, God helps/ aides our decisions without removing our free will, does this means you believe aided free will without God removing our free will?

This is exactly I believe as follows: God aides man’s will without removing man’s free will.

I believe we both agree: God aides man’s will without removing man’s free will.

But I’m not sure that the above statement means both of us the same thing.

We can test it and the test even suit to the thread title.

Please @Mmarco explain in the greatest details according to the sequences events, you believe a person saved, keep saved and at the end goes to heaven.

Please take time, for good work need time.

Thank you in advance for your answer.

God bless

 

[Mmarco]

Please @Mmarco explain in the greatest details according to the sequences events, you believe a person saved, keep saved and at the end goes to heaven.

I am not sure to understand your question but I know for sure that I don’t know exactly the sequence of events occurring to a person who goes to heaven. I think that probably such sequence is not even exactly the same for everybody.

 

[Gorgias]

The created realm is outside the temporal framework?? This part of your post is confusing me, as this realm is created and most certainly holds itself in time. Did you misword yourself?

No. But the actual creation of it (ex nihilo, as it were) happens outside of the temporal framework. (We would say that the temporal framework itself is part of creation; therefore, it does not transcend creation itself.)

So: the universe contains a temporal framework, but the universe comes into existence outside a temporal framework – it comes into existence in eternity! (Which, if you think about it hard enough, kinda makes your brain all twisty.)

 

[quaestio45]

Ohh, I think I’m understanding what your saying @Gorgias. So, in ontological sequence, God creates the universe. In that ontoligically prior state, God could not know the eternal destinies, and thus its in this “middle knowledge” you refer to. Once you go higher on the ontological sequence and the events are actualized, then there is knowledge of eternal destinies, yes? Am I getting this somewhere in the ball park?

 

[Latin]

Please @Mmarco consider you are an architect.

You designed a building, you designed every event down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete your building.

You give the builders your building design, which contains every event/ act down to its minutest details.

Your Designed, Decreed, Foreordained Plan causes every event/ act down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete your building.

Your building design creates/ causes the builders their DETERMINED WILL and their DETERMINED ACTIONS which determined actions you tailor made everyone of your builders which need to perform to complete your building.

You @Mmarco not only help your boulders to act, you causes/ you order every act of your builders to complete your building.

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GOD DESIGNED THE UNIVERSE AND WE ARE HIS BUILDERS

God not only helps us to act, God causes/ He orders every our act, as you causes the act of every of your builders.
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God designed the universe includes this world, He Designed, Decreed, Foreordained and He causes every event/ act according to His design down to its minutest details.

As we are God’s fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom, God’s building design creates/ causes us our DETERMINED WILL and our DETERMINED ACTIONS which determined actions God tailor made every-one of us from all eternity, which actions we need to perform to complete God’s kingdom.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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Without even knowing, we are all God’s builders, every choice we make, every act we perform, tailor made to each one of us, and Designed, Decreed, Foreordained by God from all eternity and He causes us to FREELY perform in order to complete the work of His creation.
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom
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Because God works in us He causes all our actions, we all freely do what we want to do and we don’t even realize, we are freely cooperating with His graces and working on to complete His creation.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

CCC 2022 The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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God bless

 

[Katie777]

Protestants believe in reprobate souls

 

[Latin]

Protestants believe in reprobate souls

Only our Catholic Church has the revealed fulness of the truth.

God bless

 

[Katie777]

Yes and I am Catholic since birth, school etc.

 

[Mmarco]

Your building design creates/ causes the builders their DETERMINED WILL and their DETERMINED ACTIONS which determined actions you tailor made everyone of your builders which need to perform to complete your building.

I disagree; if I was able to foresee the free decisions of the builders, I would not need to determine/cause the builders actions, because my design would have already included the builders’ free decisions and therefore my building would be completed without my direct intervention on the builders’ free will.

Let me give an example to explain what I mean; imagine two chess player A and B.
If A can foresee every possible counter-move of B, A can win becuse he will design a succession of moves taking into account every counter move of B.
A does not need to change B’s will or decisions; A simply uses his knowledge about B’s free decisions to design his strategy.

 

[Latin]

I disagree; if I was able to foresee the free decisions of the builders, I would not need to determine/cause the builders actions, because my design would have already included the builders’ free decisions and therefore my building would be completed without my direct intervention on the builders’ free will.

I’m sure @Mmarco you know you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the teachings with the Catholic Church on the subject.

Your theory would be impossible for several reasons:

First reason, their wills would be contradict each other.

Second reason, they don’t have the knowledge of an architect, etc.
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I heard the theory several times that God designed our independent free will actions into His plan.

Of course this theory is the greatest nonsense because the outcome of billions of opposing actions would be the greatest disorder.

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For example, as we are both Catholic, we both should believe:

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
.
De Veritatis: Aquinas said, “ God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
.
CCC 2022 The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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Do you believe @Mmarco the above teachings of the Catholic Church?
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Thank you for your answer in advance.
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God bless

 

[Mmarco]

I’m sure @Mmarco you know you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the teachings with the Catholic Church on the subject.

I disagree; I am disagreeing only with your interpretation of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
I see no contradictions between my ideas and the dogmas you quote.

Your theory would be impossible for several reasons:

First reason, their wills would be contradict each other.

Second reason, they don’t have the knowledge of an architect, etc.
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I heard the theory several times that God designed our independent free will actions into His plan.

Of course this theory is the greatest nonsense because the outcome of billions of opposing actions would be the greatest disorder.

Your arguments are totally inconsistent; God has the capacity to use billions of opposing actions to obtain what He wants to obtain. You are limiting God’s omnipotence and intelligence.

 

[Latin]

I disagree; if I was able to foresee the free decisions of the builders, I would not need to determine/cause the builders actions, because my design would have already included the builders’ free decisions and therefore my building would be completed without my direct intervention on the builders’ free will.

The builders does not have the knowledge of an architect.

For the builders for lack of knowledge they cannot have any decision.

So, the architect’s building design must create/ causes the builders their DETERMINED WILL and their DETERMINED ACTIONS which determined actions you tailor made everyone of your builders which need to perform to complete your building.

How can you @Mmarco explain this out? – I don’t think you can.

Of course you can try. We are all listening.

God bless

 

[Mmarco]

The builders does not have the knowledge of an architect.

For the builders for lack of knowledge they cannot have any decision.

So, the architect’s building design must create/ causes the builders their DETERMINED WILL and their DETERMINED ACTIONS which determined actions you tailor made everyone of your builders which need to perform to complete your building.

How can you @Mmarco explain this out? – I don’t think you can.

Of course you can try. We are all listening.

God bless

The builders do not need to know the architect’s design, because the omniscent architect has already included their free decisions in his plan; therefore, the builders freely and anawarely will do what the architect expects them to do.

 

[Latin]

I believe the above statement is correct, but if someone read it who is not familiar with Catholic Theology on the subject, without explanation can not understand it.

The builders do not need to know the architect’s design,

Because God himself operates in the will of the builders, the builders every time freely will what God wants them to will and the builders every time freely do what God wills and wants them to do.

the omniscient architect has already included their free decisions in his plan;

Corrected: The omniscient architect has already included their free decisions and their free performances in his plan.

therefore, the builders freely and anawarely will do what the architect expects them to do.

Explanation of the way the omniscient architect causes each of His builders by virtue of their freewill decisions to freely perform their tailormade performances of the buildigwork.

THE CHAIN OF CAUSALITY
St. Thomas properly explains the chain of causality:

"It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God."
.
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him, efficacious in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);
.
CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
.
De Veritatis: Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
Because God himself operates in our will He causes all our actions and we all freely do what we want to do and we don’t even realize, we are freely cooperating with His graces.
.
CCC 2022 The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
God bless

 

[goout]

Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

Because God is a lover, and love is creative by nature. It is good to exist. Don’t foul it up by choosing hell.

 

[Gorgias]

CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become God’s fellow workers

Why do you insist on misquoting the catechism?

It’s “God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation”, not “God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation”!

The way you’re presenting the quote, it’s as if you’re denying that humans are “free causes”.

 

[Inquiry]

So, I would assert that, until it’s God’s will that a person will be created (at any point in the history of the universe), the ‘knowledge’ of the state of their salvation is a counterfactual – it’s “middle knowledge”. And therefore, until He wills them to be created, He doesn’t have the opportunity to be saying “I’m going to create them, knowing that they’re going to hell.” Only once their creation is assured, does God’s omniscience kick in, and He knows. But, this doesn’t make him the kind of tyrant that Calvin envisions – a God who creates in order to condemn.

That sounds like choice as emergent behavior from free will - God does not know a persons choice until He can see them make it, which He can do the moment He creates them. That does imply a kind of before and after for God, though, doesn’t it?

 

[Gorgias]

God does not know a persons choice until He can see them make it, which He can do the moment He creates them.

“Creates the universe”, I’d say. And, it’s not sight, as such, but knowledge.

That does imply a kind of before and after for God, though, doesn’t it?

That’s why I’m being so careful to call it a metaphysical priority, and not a temporal priority ! There’s not precisely a ‘before’ or ‘after’, as such – at least in the way that we (who are within a temporal framework) would experience and understand.