Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

[Mmarco]

This point is important – upon creating the universe, God knows everything that happens in the universe. No doubt that His omnipotence covers that knowledge.

The question becomes “does God know everything that doesn’t happen in the universe? Is that part of His omnipotence?”

I’d argue that this – which is called ‘middle knowledge’ – is not part of God’s omnipotence. Therefore, in a way that is prior – not temporally, but metaphysically – God does not know the eternal destiny of souls ‘prior’ to the creation of the universe.

This means that He doesn’t “create in order to condemn”.

I can only say I disagree. I think God knows everything and there is nothing “metaphiscally prior” that God doesn’t know. God know everything eternally, and He knows eternally who are the souls that will go to Hell.

 

[Gorgias]

I can only say I disagree. I think God knows everything and there is nothing “metaphiscally prior” that God doesn’t know. God know everything eternally, and He knows eternally who are the souls that will go to Hell.

Fair enough. Then, you do not have any defense to those who affirm Calvin’s teaching of double predestination – that is, that God creates some in order to condemn them.

(You know, of course, that the Church denies that claim, right?)

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

neophyte:

akck:

Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

For much the same reason we do it, I imagine.

But we do not create souls.

We participate in our own disposition. We are entirely free to take what God has created, including ourselves, and subject that creation to disorder, misuse, unreason, etc etc etc…

We participate and cooperate. You can rail against God for creating you, but that’s a little silly. Is it better to not exist?

The point is that your answer “For much the same reason we do it” to the question “Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?” implies that we create souls we know will go to hell, which is obviously false.
In other words, the reasons why God creates souls he know will wind up in hell is certainly not “the reason we do it”, since we do not do it.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

I can only say I disagree. I think God knows everything and there is nothing “metaphiscally prior” that God doesn’t know. God know everything eternally, and He knows eternally who are the souls that will go to Hell.

Fair enough. Then, you do not have any defense to those who affirm Calvin’s teaching of double predestination – that is, that God creates some in order to condemn them.

(You know, of course, that the Church denies that claim, right?)

I have already explained my view in one of my previous messages.
God has chosen to create man with a free will, therefore He never creates souls in order to condemn them, but in order that they can freely choose. He knows eternally that some souls will choose evil and will go to Hell, but this is not the purpose He creates them. God creates them because He wants to save as many souls as possible and the fear of damnation in Hell may have a role in man’s choice to abandon sin, expecially when he is still much involved in sin. This is the reason why God tells us that Hell exists and that many will go to Hell (see Matthew 7:13, for example); since God never lies, He created also the souls who will go to Hell. If God had not created the souls who will go to Hell, fewer souls would have gone to heaven. In conclusion, also the souls who will go to Hell , against their own intentions, have a positive role in the salvation of the souls.

 

[goout]

goout:

Mmarco:

neophyte:

akck:

Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

For much the same reason we do it, I imagine.

But we do not create souls.

We participate in our own disposition. We are entirely free to take what God has created, including ourselves, and subject that creation to disorder, misuse, unreason, etc etc etc…

We participate and cooperate. You can rail against God for creating you, but that’s a little silly. Is it better to not exist?

The point is that your answer “For much the same reason we do it” to the question “Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?” implies that we create souls we know will go to hell, which is obviously false.
In other words, the reasons why God creates souls he know will wind up in hell is certainly not “the reason we do it”, since we do not do it.

Your assumption is that God bears full responsibility for freedom because he is the creator.
My point is that freedom entails responsibility on the part of the creature.

Human beings pro-create children, all the while knowing that the child will someday die.
We still pro-create. You can ask the same question of any set of parents.

 

[Mmarco]

My point is that freedom entails responsibility on the part of the creature.

I agree, I have never said the opposite.

Human beings pro-create children, all the while knowing that the child will someday die.
We still pro-create. You can ask the same question of any set of parents.

First of all, we do not create any souls. Besides, we are not omniscient and we cannot know whether our children will go to heaven or to hell. ( Of course, we hope they will go to heaven.)
Your comparison with parents is illogical.

 

[goout]

goout:

My point is that freedom entails responsibility on the part of the creature.

I agree, I have never said the opposite.

Human beings pro-create children, all the while knowing that the child will someday die.
We still pro-create. You can ask the same question of any set of parents.

First of all, we do not create any souls. Besides, we are not omniscient and we cannot know whether our children will go to heaven or to hell. ( Of course, we hope they will go to heaven.)
Your comparison with parents is illogical.

I said pro-create.
Parents pro-create with the full knowledge of the risks involved with freedom.

The point that you are avoiding is this:
love creates without counting the cost. It is good to exist.
Because God is love, God creates life. That’s what love does.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

goout:

My point is that freedom entails responsibility on the part of the creature.

I agree, I have never said the opposite.

Human beings pro-create children, all the while knowing that the child will someday die.
We still pro-create. You can ask the same question of any set of parents.

First of all, we do not create any souls. Besides, we are not omniscient and we cannot know whether our children will go to heaven or to hell. ( Of course, we hope they will go to heaven.)
Your comparison with parents is illogical.

I said pro-create.
Parents pro-create with the full knowledge of the risks involved with freedom.

The point is that for parents there is only a risk involved with freedom, and not a certainty. In that case of God, there is the certainty of the knowledge of the soul’s free choices.

The point that you are avoiding is this:
love creates without counting the cost. It is good to exist.
Because God is love, God creates life. That’s what love does.

I agree that loves creates us out of love, but I do not think that God creates a soul without a good purpose.
I think that it is you who are avoiding the fundamental question of this thread; Why doesn’t God create only those souls He knows will go to heaven?

 

[EssentialBeing]

We can not see light without darkness, in order to know what is right we must also know what is wrong.

 

[neophyte]

But we do not create souls.

Sure we do, we are such direct participants in the process that no human souls are created unless we first invite God to do it. And we know that a significant number of the souls we are responsible for creating will go to hell, and yet we do it anyway. So if you presume to ask God why he does it, you must also be willing to ask why you do it.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Fair enough. Then, you do not have any defense to those who affirm Calvin’s teaching of double predestination – that is, that God creates some in order to condemn them.

Have you never read John Chrysostom?

 

[runningdude]

God gave everyone free will.

If love is not freely given, love is meaningless. God did not create sycophants, but true persons in his image who can chose to return his freely given love or not. Sadly, some chose not to, preferring eternal damnation.

God destined all for heaven. Some refused that gift.

 

[TK421]

I have already explained my view in one of my previous messages.
God has chosen to create man with a free will, therefore He never creates souls in order to condemn them, but in order that they can freely choose. He knows eternally that some souls will choose evil and will go to Hell, but this is not the purpose He creates them. God creates them because He wants to save as many souls as possible and the fear of damnation in Hell may have a role in man’s choice to abandon sin, expecially when he is still much involved in sin. This is the reason why God tells us that Hell exists and that many will go to Hell (see Matthew 7:13, for example); since God never lies, He created also the souls who will go to Hell. If God had not created the souls who will go to Hell, fewer souls would have gone to heaven. In conclusion, also the souls who will go to Hell , against their own intentions, have a positive role in the salvation of the souls.

Which author is this from?

 

[Annie]

Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

To help the others get to Heaven?

 

[Buzzard3]

Very simple; God is omniscient. Personally I find your hypothesis totally incompatible with the concept of omnipotent and omniscient God.
God knows everyting eternally. There is no “before” and no “after” in His eternal knowledge.

Scripture suggests God does not know how you will exercise your free will before you actually use it.
For example, after God tested Abraham (by commanding Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac), God says, “now I know that you fear God” (Gen 22:12). Notice the word “now”, which implies God did not know if Abraham would pass the test or not … until he actually passed the test.
So, contrary to your claim, there appears to be a “before” and an “after”.

Furthermore, scripture says God “tests our hearts” and our faith by how we exercise our free will - how can God know if we will pass these tests if we don’t actually act and pass the tests?

The way I look at it is, since God exists outside time, he can view any point in history from beginning to end - like rewinding or fast-forwarding a movie on a DVD player. But before he can do that, the movie must first be made - the movie is made only when humans act and exercise their free will. In other words, history must be first made before God can view it from any angle.

Finally, the statement, “God knows everything eternally” strikes me as kinda meaningless and nonsensical. It implies that God cannot have a new idea … ever … doesn’t it? I should think that if God knows everything eternally, he would be bored out of his mind.

 

[Buzzard3]

This point is important – upon creating the universe, God knows everything that happens in the universe. No doubt that His omnipotence covers that knowledge

I suggest God knows knows “everything that happens in the universe” only after “everything happens”.

The movie of history must be made (by the unfolding of real events) before God can rewind and fast-forward it and view it from any angle.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

But we do not create souls.

Sure we do, we are such direct participants in the process that no human souls are created unless we first invite God to do it.

This is simply false. We do not create souls.

And we know that a significant number of the souls we are responsible for creating will go to hell, and yet we do it anyway. So if you presume to ask God why he does it, you must also be willing to ask why you do it.

Absurd. As I have already clearly explained, we cannot know whether our children will go to Hell or to heaven, while God knows it from the beginning. Your comparison between God and parents makes no sense.
By the way, I am not asking “why God does it”; this was the question raised by the person who started the thread. I have already given my answer to that question, which is completely different from yours.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

Very simple; God is omniscient. Personally I find your hypothesis totally incompatible with the concept of omnipotent and omniscient God.
God knows everyting eternally. There is no “before” and no “after” in His eternal knowledge.

Scripture suggests God does not know how you will exercise your free will before you actually use it.

I strongly disagree with your interpretations of Scripture and your ideas are contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

That God knows infallibly and from eternity what, for example, a certain man, in the exercise of free will, will do or actually does in any given circumstances, and what he might or would actually have done in different circumstances is beyond doubt — being a corollary from the eternal actuality of Divine knowledge. So to speak, God has not to wait on the contingent and temporal event of the man’s free choice to know what the latter’s action will be; He knows it from eternity.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

For example, after God tested Abraham (by commanding Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac), God says, “now I know that you fear God” (Gen 22:12). Notice the word “now”, which implies God did not know if Abraham would pass the test or not … until he actually passed the test.
So, contrary to your claim, there appears to be a “before” and an “after”.

That’s the Angel of the Lord, not God.

Angels aren’t omniscient.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

I have already explained my view in one of my previous messages.
God has chosen to create man with a free will, therefore He never creates souls in order to condemn them, but in order that they can freely choose. He knows eternally that some souls will choose evil and will go to Hell, but this is not the purpose He creates them. God creates them because He wants to save as many souls as possible and the fear of damnation in Hell may have a role in man’s choice to abandon sin, expecially when he is still much involved in sin. This is the reason why God tells us that Hell exists and that many will go to Hell (see Matthew 7:13, for example); since God never lies, He created also the souls who will go to Hell. If God had not created the souls who will go to Hell, fewer souls would have gone to heaven. In conclusion, also the souls who will go to Hell , against their own intentions, have a positive role in the salvation of the souls.

Which author is this from?

That is just my personal view.