Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

[goout]

neophyte:

Mmarco:

But we do not create souls.

Sure we do, we are such direct participants in the process that no human souls are created unless we first invite God to do it.

This is simply false. We do not create souls.

And we know that a significant number of the souls we are responsible for creating will go to hell, and yet we do it anyway. So if you presume to ask God why he does it, you must also be willing to ask why you do it.

Absurd. As I have already clearly explained, we cannot know whether our children will go to Hell or to heaven, while God knows it from the beginning. Your comparison between God and parents makes no sense.
By the way, I am not asking “why God does it”; this was the question raised by the person who started the thread. I have already given my answer to that question, which is completely different from yours.

We pro-create.
You are avoiding simple facts.
God does not create human beings out of thin air by fiat. He incorporates (pun intended) human beings in the process of our own creation.

The point is that for parents there is only a risk involved with freedom, and not a certainty.

Again, God creates human beings with free will. We are free to choose.
You are making God’s omniscience a human thing. Omniscience is not to be a “transcendent journalist” who just knows all the facts. That’s not the divine omniscience.

 

[Mmarco]

We pro-create.
You are avoiding simple facts.
God does not create human beings out of thin air by fiat. He incorporates (pun intended) human beings in the process of our own creation.

I see no connection between your comments and the issue of this thread.

Mmarco:

The point is that for parents there is only a risk involved with freedom, and not a certainty.

Again, God creates human beings with free will. We are free to choose.
You are making God’s omniscience a human thing. Omniscience is not to be a “transcendent journalist” who just knows all the facts. That’s not the divine omniscience.

By no means I am making God’s omniscient a human thing. You do not seem to understand my meaning, as well as the meaning of this thread.

 

[goout]

I see no connection between your comments and the issue of this thread.

Yes that’s true.

 

[neophyte]

This is simply false. We do not create souls.

I suppose you think that babies just pop into existance with no activity on our part? We have absolutely nothing to do with it?

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

This is simply false. We do not create souls.

I suppose you think that babies just pop into existance with no activity on our part? We have absolutely nothing to do with it?

First of all, we have nothing to do with the creation of the souls of our children; only God creates souls.
Besides, you must undertand the difference between free will and capacity to realize our intentions.
The fact that we have free will does not imply that we can realize our intentions and our plans.
If God does not want us to have children, we will not have children, even if we want to and try to have them.

 

[Gorgias]

God has chosen to create man with a free will, therefore He never creates souls in order to condemn them, but in order that they can freely choose.

Sure. But, it doesn’t provide a satisfying answer to “does God create souls knowing they’ll be condemned?”… your approach seems to be saying “yup! He sure does!” – which seems contrary to God’s omnibenevolence. (And, if we claim that it isn’t contrary, then we get back the retort – “oh! so then, the greatest good isn’t God’s love, it’s human free will?”

He knows eternally that some souls will choose evil and will go to Hell, but this is not the purpose He creates them. God creates them because He wants to save as many souls as possible

Still not hitting the mark, though. If God knows that He is going to create n souls, and out of them, k will be saved and n-k will be consigned to hell, then He doesn’t “save as many souls as possible” to any greater extent by creating those n-k souls. Either way, only k souls go to heaven.

The only way that the “as many souls as possible” argument works is if He doesn’t know prior to committing to create them whether they’re saved or condemned.

I suggest God knows knows “everything that happens in the universe” only after “everything happens”.

No, that doesn’t work, since it creates a temporal limitation on God. If He is outside of the universe, then He knows it in its entirety, across all its dimensions (including time).

The movie of history must be made (by the unfolding of real events) before God can rewind and fast-forward it and view it from any angle.

That’s the point: God doesn’t “view history”; He simply knows all of it, without mediation.

 

[neophyte]

First of all, we have nothing to do with the creation of the souls of our children; only God creates souls.

You think that we have nothing to do with the creation of children? What a bizarre idea.

 

[Buzzard3]

If God knew what Abraham was going to do, what was the point of God testing him?

 

[Buzzard3]

Please tell me where I can find that article from the Catholic Encyclopedia, please - I would like to read it. Thanx.

Btw, you didn’t answer my question. You said God “knows everything eternally” - if so, doesn’t that mean he can’t have a new idea?

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

He knows eternally that some souls will choose evil and will go to Hell, but this is not the purpose He creates them. God creates them because He wants to save as many souls as possible

Still not hitting the mark, though. If God knows that He is going to create n souls, and out of them, k will be saved and n-k will be consigned to hell, then He doesn’t “save as many souls as possible” to any greater extent by creating those n-k souls. Either way, only k souls go to heaven.

If you had read whole my post, you would have seen that I have given a rational explanation of the reason why God creates n souls so that k will be saved.
In fact, my point is that the n-k souls that will go to Hell, against their own intentions, play a positive role in the salvation of the k souls.

The only way that the “as many souls as possible” argument works is if He doesn’t know prior to committing to create them whether they’re saved or condemned.

Wrong; your hypothesis that God doesn’t know etc. is certainly not the only way; I have given a different rational explanation.

 

[Mmarco]

Please tell me where I can find that article from the Catholic Encyclopedia, please - I would like to read it. Thanx.

Here is the link

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

 

[quaestio45]

Wrong; your hypothesis that God doesn’t know etc. is certainly not the only way;

And what is wrong with thinking that God cannot know with certainity what occurs with creation ontologically prior to creation? If we look at the choices of man within a temporal framework as only possible and not certain, could it not be that ontologically prior to creation it was in a similar way? After all, there is such a thing as possibility, and God knows the outcomes of these possibilities because he sees the future as well as past and present. But outside of time, there is no such advantage, thus God may not ‘know’ the outcomes of creation in the same way I cannot know the exact point of impact of light in a double slit experiment.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

If God knew what Abraham was going to do, what was the point of God testing him?

To show us what He was willing to do for us.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And what is wrong with thinking that God cannot know with certainity what occurs with creation ontologically prior to creation?

That would make Him an angel, not God.

 

[Gorgias]

If God knew what Abraham was going to do, what was the point of God testing him?

Abraham didn’t know.

Btw, you didn’t answer my question. You said God “knows everything eternally” - if so, doesn’t that mean he can’t have a new idea?

That’s correct; He can’t. He knows all things eternally. He doesn’t “think” the way humans think.

If you had read whole my post

I did. It still doesn’t explain your statement about maximal numbers of souls being saved.

In fact, my point is that the n-k souls that will go to Hell, against their own intentions, play a positive role in the salvation of the k souls.

That’s just as bad. “God created you in order for you to be condemned, so that others would go to heaven.” Still not off the hook, friend…

Wrong; your hypothesis that God doesn’t know etc. is certainly not the only way; I have given a different rational explanation.

Rational? I’m still on the fence on that one. Workable? It sure doesn’t seem so. (After all, the fact that the saved know that God’s justice has won the day still doesn’t answer the question “but why condemn those souls, if He knows?”)

And what is wrong with thinking that God cannot know with certainity what occurs with creation ontologically prior to creation?

For believers, it ‘smells’ like we’re saying that God isn’t omniscient, and they recoil in horror. (For unbelievers, it has the same smell, and they laugh and cheer.)

However, the answer I posit is simply that “middle knowledge” is not part of God’s omniscience.

That would make Him an angel, not God.

No, I think you’re misunderstanding the proposition. Angels know from the time of their creation. God knows with metaphysical priority (not temporal priority) at the point He creates.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

If you had read whole my post

I did. It still doesn’t explain your statement about maximal numbers of souls being saved.

I think it does and it is a perfectly rational explanation.
Maybe we can only agree to disagree.
As I said, I think there is nothing “metaphisically prior” that God doesn’t know.

[/quote]

 

[quaestio45]

As I said, I think there is nothing “metaphisically prior” that God doesn’t know.

So can God know what day Hitler conquered the world too? Or can he not know what certainly hasn’t happened?

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

Wrong; your hypothesis that God doesn’t know etc. is certainly not the only way;

And what is wrong with thinking that God cannot know with certainity what occurs with creation ontologically prior to creation? If we look at the choices of man within a temporal framework as only possible and not certain, could it not be that ontologically prior to creation it was in a similar way? After all, there is such a thing as possibility, and God knows the outcomes of these possibilities because he sees the future as well as past and present. But outside of time, there is no such advantage, thus God may not ‘know’ the outcomes of creation in the same way I cannot know the exact point of impact of light in a double slit experiment.

I strongly disagree; outside time God knows everything eternally. I think that the idea of “ontologically prior” is only a meaningless word without any correspondence in the divine knowledge.
God has always known who are those who will scorn Him and go to Hell, but He creates them because through them (and against their own intentions) He can lead more souls to heaven.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

As I said, I think there is nothing “metaphisically prior” that God doesn’t know.

So can God know what day Hitler conquered the world too? Or can he not know what certainly hasn’t happened?

God has always perfectly known that Hitler has never conquered the world and that such a question is meaningless.
Therefore God has always known with certainty what has never happened and what will never happen in history.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

God knows with metaphysical priority (not temporal priority) at the point He creates.

According to what she asserts, God is not all-knowing.