Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

[quaestio45]

God has always perfectly known that Hitler has never conquered the world and that such a question is meaningless.
Therefore God has always known with certainty what has never happened and what will never happen in history.

Okay, so God can’t know what has not happened then. Thus, could we not apply that to what has occured ontologically prior to his effect? When no events transpired?

I think that the idea of “ontologically prior” is only a meaningless word without any correspondence in the divine knowledge.

What is meaningless about it? There are effects to causes, and we can go down the chain to what is absolutely prior to an effect. If God was thus ontologically prior to his effect then so would the fruits of his effect be subsequent to the effect, such as knowledge of what transpires within said creation.

God has always known who are those who will scorn Him and go to Hell, but He creates them because through them (and against their own intentions) He can lead more souls to heaven.

That sounds cruel to sacrifice the many for the few, many would object (although I wouldn’t find myself necessarily in that category). If God is good and is love then surely there is no reason to create those souls which are destined to damnation. Instead, he would create souls bound for heaven, yes?

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

God has always perfectly known that Hitler has never conquered the world and that such a question is meaningless.
Therefore God has always known with certainty what has never happened and what will never happen in history.

Okay, so God can’t know what has not happened then.

Wrong, God knows that it has not happen and that it will never happen. There is nothing He doesn’t know. Your statement is simply nonsensical.

Thus, could we not apply that to what has occured ontologically prior to his effect? When no events transpired?

No, God has always known eternally everything.

Mmarco:

I think that the idea of “ontologically prior” is only a meaningless word without any correspondence in the divine knowledge.

What is meaningless about it? There are effects to causes, and we can go down the chain to what is absolutely prior to an effect. If God was thus ontologically prior to his effect then so would the fruits of his effect be subsequent to the effect, such as knowledge of what transpires within saud creation.

God is the first cause and He has always known all “effects” eternally.

Mmarco:

God has always known who are those who will scorn Him and go to Hell, but He creates them because through them (and against their own intentions) He can lead more souls to heaven.

That sounds cruel to sacrifice the many for the few, many would object (although I wouldn’t find myself necessarily in that category).

There is nothing cruel beause the souls who go to Hell have freely chosen evil and they are fully responsible for their choices.

If God is good and is love then surely there is no reason to create those souls which are destined to damnation.

False, there is a reason and the reason is that through those souls (and against their own will) God can lead more souls to heaven.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him.

In ALL things (which implies also through the men who scorn God and choose evil) God works for the good of those who love Him.

 

[quaestio45]

Wrong, God knows that it has not happen and that it will never happen. There is nothing He doesn’t know.

You just admitted that things which don’t happen you can’t have knowledge of. This is exactly the idea of middle knowledge. Thus, there is nothing “nonsensical” with my statement thus far. You may think that categorizing middle knowledge as knowledge is nonsensical, but certainly not the statement made.

No, God has always known eternally everything.

God exists>God creates reality>events occur

This is a chain of causality, of course. Now, although in eternity all these things have no before or after, we know that ontologically there is a sequence in play here, again, even if it isn’t ever expressed in reality as happening in a temporal manner. Now heres a question: is God’s knowledge of events contingent upon their enactors or not? That is to say, does God know that x happens and therefore it happens, or does x happen and thus God knows of it as happening? Again, lets remove temporality from this equation and say that these things happen simultaneously in eternity, but nonetheless must have an ontological sequence. If you say its the former, one might ask how we don’t fall into @Latins idea of free will, where it is practically an illusion (sorry Latin, its true). If its the latter, then there is, ontologically, a point in the sequence where God doesn’t know what is to occur with his subjects. Of course, this would have to be ontologically prior to creation, for if it were subsequent he could just know future present and past perfectly and thus not fall into that middle knowledge. In anycase, that seems the case for middle knowledge might be something to ponder over.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

Wrong, God knows that it has not happen and that it will never happen. There is nothing He doesn’t know.

You just admitted that things which don’t happen you can’t have knowledge of.

I have never admitted anything like that; What I said is that your statement “you can’t have knowledge of things which don’t happen” is nonsensical. In fact you know that such things do not happen, and this is knowlegde.
By the way, this has nothing to do with the problem of souls who go to Hell, since this is something that happens, and God has always known this eternally.

Mmarco:

No, God has always known eternally everything.

God exists>God creates reality>events occur

This is a chain of causality, of course. Now, although in eternity all these things have no before or after, we know that ontologically there is a sequence in play here, again, even if it isn’t ever expressed in reality as happening in a temporal manner. Now heres a question: is God’s knowledge of events contingent upon their enactors or not? …

I totally disagree. As I said, God has always known everything eternally.
There is no middle knowledge and nothing "ontological prior " that God doesn’t know.
I think your statements are nonsensical while my explanation is perfectly logical and consistent.
At this point we may only agree to disagree.

 

[Gorgias]

As I said, I think there is nothing “metaphisically prior” that God doesn’t know.

Fair enough. I tend to dislike “agree to disagree” language, so I guess we’ll have to “agree that each other is crazypants wrong”.

I think that the idea of “ontologically prior” is only a meaningless word without any correspondence in the divine knowledge.

Fair enough, again. Philosophers disagree with you, it would seem.

According to what she asserts, God is not all-knowing.

Pardon?

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

How does God know if I’m going to heaven or hell if my very existence hasn’t even been conceptualized? How can my fate exist if I do not exist to achieve it?

 

[Nicene]

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH VEHEMENTLY CONDEMNED THE IDEA OF MAN’S UNAIDED FREE WILL. – I accept only man’s aided free will as follows.

Actually you’ve been advocating much more than this, irresistible grace and double predestination both of which the are condemned as anathema in the council of Trent. When you asked this:

Do you believe @Mmarco, is it possible that in the future someone will reject the grace of God whom He decided to save?

It is also stated twice in the NT that Gods will is that all men be saved. 1 Tim 2:3, 2 Pet 3:9. So logically (and the Churches position) some will in fact reject grace through free will, if not then there is no such thing as going to hell as the universalists state. Because you are both taking the position of Calvins Doctrine of irresistible grace.

Unfortunately on your position of irresistible grace only for those Gods chooses takes up the position of double predestination, which as I said was also anathemized in the council of Trent as heresy.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Benadam]

So, why doesn’t God filter out all the damned souls? So is God seeing their final end before He creates them? He has a list…the next one is damned do I create this soul that will spend eternity in torment? Well if it is that way and He only created the souls that would not sin…We wouldn’t know ourselves very well. God would have to tell us …I don’t create those of you I know are going to hell. Thats most of you by the way.
I know, forever a mystery to your self.
We would think to ourselves "most of us sinned? But none of us sinned!

Too wierd.

 

[quaestio45]

I have never admitted anything like that; What I said is that your statement “you can’t have knowledge of things which don’t happen” is nonsensical. In fact you know that such things do not happen, and this is knowlegde.
By the way, this has nothing to do with the problem of souls who go to Hell, since this is something that happens, and God has always known this eternally.

First, you assert but never substantiate the “nonsensical” accusation. What about it is “nonsensical”? The fact that I constitute it as knowledge yet you may think knowledge is only applicable to the actual and not simply the potential? Well, that’s exactly right. You can’t “know” what has not occurred. Thats the exact point being made.

I totally disagree. As I said, God has always known everything eternally.

Okay… I affirm that. Now why am I wrong though? Two things can be true at once: God is eternal in state which includes knowledge, and God prior to an effect (nontemporally) cannot know the effect wholly if (and this is important) his knowledge of reality and choices are contingent upon their happening and not the other way around.

There is no middle knowledge and nothing "ontological prior " that God doesn’t know.
I think your statements are nonsensical while my explanation is perfectly logical and consistent.

Assertions without substance are meaningless. You have not explained even remotely what is meaningless or nonsensical of ontological priority other than the fact that you dislike it and believe it to be incompatible with God’s omniscience. You’re reasoning? Because “God knows from eternity”. Okay, how is that incompatible with God’s omniscience? Well, who knows because I haven’t been given substance other than your model of God’s plan. If you want to challenge my reasoning I suggest you work off of the following formulation:
P1) God’s knowledge of reality is contingent upon the state of that reality
P2) God exists ontologically prior to his effects
C1) Therefore, ontologically prior to his effects, God did not have knowledge of reality

At this point we may only agree to disagree.

Perhaps.

 

[Buzzard3]

Thanx for that.

 

[Mmarco]

How does God know if I’m going to heaven or hell if my very existence hasn’t even been conceptualized? How can my fate exist if I do not exist to achieve it?

The point is that your existence has always been conceptualized and known by God eternally.
God has always known your “fate” eternally.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

The point is that your existence has always been conceptualized and known by God eternally.
God has always known your “fate” eternally.

Yes. I was placed at this point in space and time at the same moment I was conceptualized. But my fate became actual when God conceptualized me and created me. My fate does not exist if I do not. As such, God did not create me knowing how I would end up so much as I was made and my fate made known to God at the same moment, the moment all of time became real.

God does not create souls knowing that they will go to Hell. Their fate becomes known to Him as they are made, and their fate becomes a real event in this universe. Without a person, there is no fate.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

The point is that your existence has always been conceptualized and known by God eternally.
God has always known your “fate” eternally.

Yes. I was placed at this point in space and time at the same moment I was conceptualized. But my fate became actual when God conceptualized me and created me. My fate does not exist if I do not.

I strongly disagree. God knows the fate of all men eternally, before they begin to exist.
God has always known all history before the creation of the universe.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

God knows the fate of all men eternally, before they begin to exist.

How can God know something about that which does not exist and has not been thought of by Him?

God has always known all history before the creation of the universe.

Same objection here. How can God know about that which has never been thought of?

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

God knows the fate of all men eternally, before they begin to exist.

How can God know something about that which does not exist and has not been thought of by Him?

God has always known all history before the creation of the universe.

Same objection here. How can God know about that which has never been thought of?

In your questions you are assuming that there was a moment when God had not yet thought of the creation. I think that God knows everything eternally and that there has never been such a moment in God’s eternal life.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

In your questions you are assuming that there was a moment when God had not yet thought of the creation.

Not necessarily? Moments aren’t really a thing to God. Since He is outside time, all things past, present, and future exist simultaneously for Him. What that means for God and when creation became a thing, I don’t know. However, what we do know is that God thinking and God creating must occur at once in temporal terms. How can God exist and ponder time and change without such things existing? Did God know and think before time? Again, how can God know someone’s fate if they never existed or were thought of?

God knows all that is real. God does not know the shape of a square circle or name of a married bachelor because those things do not exist. Similarly, He could not know someone’s fate before they exist as thought and being.

Does God know the fate of my sister, Anne?

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

In your questions you are assuming that there was a moment when God had not yet thought of the creation.

Not necessarily? Moments aren’t really a thing to God. Since He is outside time, all things past, present, and future exist simultaneously for Him. What that means for God and when creation became a thing, I don’t know.

This is the only one of your assertions I agree with; we cannot understand how God lives His out-of-time life. This is simply inconceivable for us.

However, what we do know is that God thinking and God creating must occur at once in temporal terms.

I strongly disagree. Since God is out of time, your expression “at once” is nonsensical, because you are implicitly assuming the idea of time (also the idea of simultaneity implies the concept of time). It is simply nonsensical to try to express God’s life " in temporal terms", as you are doing.

How can God exist and ponder time and change without such things existing?

God has always known everything eternally in His out-of time life, and we must accept that God’s life is beyond our capacities of uderstanding, because time is an insurmountable limit of ours.

God knows all that is real. God does not know the shape of a square circle or name of a married bachelor because those things do not exist.

Wrong. God knows that the expression “squared circle” is nonsensical, and this is knowlege. Your statements are nonsensical exactly as the expression “squared circle”.

 

[Mmarco]

First, you assert but never substantiate the “nonsensical” accusation. What about it is “nonsensical”? The fact that I constitute it as knowledge yet you may think knowledge is only applicable to the actual and not simply the potential? Well, that’s exactly right. You can’t “know” what has not occurred. Thats the exact point being made.

I never said that " knowledge is only applicable to the actual and not simply the potential"; I have said that your statement “You can’t “know” what has not occurred” is nonsensical. Also we ( limited human beings) can know what doesn’t exist; for example, mathematicians know the properties of a four-dimensional cube, even if no such things exist in reality. For example, physicists know the properties of many hypothetical universes, with different laws of physics, universes which do not exist.
God has always known eternally the properties of the infinite universes He could have created, but that He has never created. God is absolutely free to choose what to create among the infinite possibilities He has. God has always known everything eternally, including what He has never created, what has never happened but it could have happened and what is nonsensical, and therefore could never happen.

 

[toddy]

Just like grow plants in the garden with daily care of water, fertilizer, insectiside then throw away the malice plants and sometimes most of infected ones.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Pardon?

You heard me.