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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Wouldn’t we have to know whether there is middle knowledge?
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JamesCaruso
Guest
So, on balance, your are saying that if God only created souls who would freely choose to go to heaven, fewer souls would go to heaven which in the Divine economy does not outweigh the fact that by creating souls who will choose hell many souls will go to hell but more souls will go to heaven. The equation is fewer saved souls is not better than more saved souls with some souls going to hell. Interesting. We do not have the mind of God to come to grips with that, only faith that God knows what He is doing.
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Lasergeek64
Guest
Where does human free will fit in here?
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Mmarco
Guest
If your post was directed to me, the answer is Yes, that’s what I was basically saying, except that you should have said "if God only created souls who would freely choose to go to heaven without the threat of Hell, fewer souls would go to heaven.
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Gorgias
Guest
How would you discern the answer to that question? After all, if there is middle knowledge, then it’s something that’s available to God alone.
Not sure where you’re seeing a problem. God creates; He gives humans free will; humans exercise that free will. God knows how we will exercise it, but does not force us to exercise it one way or the other.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Or God just knows everything. Simple as that.
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Gorgias
Guest
For some definition of ‘everything’. Yep.
The problem (IMHO) is that, if you posit ‘middle knowledge’, then you don’t get away from the question of the OP: “does God create souls knowing they’re condemned?” That would seem to justify Calvin’s notion of “double predestination” – that is, that God creates in order to condemn. Catholic theology denies that thought vehemently !!!
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
You have Augustine and Aquinas, and the Greek Fathers who believed otherwise without speaking of “middle knowledge.”
Occam’s razor applies.
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Latin
Guest
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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God has given to NO ONE Libertarian free will, God has given us aided free will. – CCCS 1996-1998 His call to eternal life is supernatural, coming totally from God’s decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will.
Only God has Libertarian free will no one else.
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THE CATHOLIC CHURCH VEHEMENTLY CONDEMNED THE IDEA THAT UNAIDED FREE WILL IS USEFOL FOR US
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez. 373.
In canon 22, says, “No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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GOD HAS GIVEN US AIDED FREE WILL AS FOLLOWS
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;
Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.
CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. " Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it. God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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God bless
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Latin
Guest
Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save all of us.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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CCCS 1996-1998 His call to eternal life is supernatural, coming totally from God’s decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will.
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The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect explains.
Ante prævisa merita
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.
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“Twofold predestination:
(a) one to heaven.
(b) one to the pains of hell.
However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine reprobation so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
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The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine reprobation.
Merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
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Calvinistic reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell.
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Catholic theologians view on the decree the Divine reprobation:
Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
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How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
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He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avails him nothing.
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Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.
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Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.
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The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the same thing as damnation.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
God bless
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JerryZ
Guest
The better question is why does GOD chooses to create souls for those innocents who get aborted? For even they have souls. There are videos that have been taken showing the poor babies trying to escape from the scissors that will cut them up and kill them, their scream drowned in amniotic fluid.
It goes to show how inhuman we can become.
Killing Jews in the concentration camps by burning them alive, how many were there 5, 6, 8 millions?
Only here in the US there have been 60,000,000 abortions since it was legalized. How many worldwide.
When those responsible of these acts are called up they will have all those souls testifying against them and clamoring for justice.
Why do we choose to do evil instead of loving our neighbor?
Peace!
It goes to show how inhuman we can become.
Killing Jews in the concentration camps by burning them alive, how many were there 5, 6, 8 millions?
Only here in the US there have been 60,000,000 abortions since it was legalized. How many worldwide.
When those responsible of these acts are called up they will have all those souls testifying against them and clamoring for justice.
Why do we choose to do evil instead of loving our neighbor?
Peace!
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Mmarco
Guest
Dear Latin,
I totally agree that God’s grace is absolutely necessary for us to will the good and be saved and that free will is not sufficient in itself for any good. But the point is that God has chosen to create us with a free will and He does not want to save us against our free will, which is stated clearly by the Concilium of Trent, session VI, chapter V:
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace : in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it ; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.
God’s inspiration is not irresistible; the soul is able to embrace or reject God’s inspiration.
The question could be; how can we be sure that we are saved forever and will never turn back to sin?
The answer is simple; we must freely renounce to our free will and commit entirely and definitely ourselves to God. I think that God helps us to make this choice and He accepts this choice only if we make it in full possession of our free will and in full awareness. In this way we receive the sanctifying grace, as explained in the CCC
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace , the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
We can say that the purpose of free will is to freely renounce to free will.
I totally agree that God’s grace is absolutely necessary for us to will the good and be saved and that free will is not sufficient in itself for any good. But the point is that God has chosen to create us with a free will and He does not want to save us against our free will, which is stated clearly by the Concilium of Trent, session VI, chapter V:
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace : in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it ; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.
God’s inspiration is not irresistible; the soul is able to embrace or reject God’s inspiration.
The question could be; how can we be sure that we are saved forever and will never turn back to sin?
The answer is simple; we must freely renounce to our free will and commit entirely and definitely ourselves to God. I think that God helps us to make this choice and He accepts this choice only if we make it in full possession of our free will and in full awareness. In this way we receive the sanctifying grace, as explained in the CCC
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace , the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
We can say that the purpose of free will is to freely renounce to free will.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
One could also argue from Chrysostom and Jerome that God only attracts, not alters.
It also allows for post praevisa merita. It is innacurrate to say only the first clause.
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Apache78
Guest
Its up to us as humans to decide what we want to do with our souls. Its like your parents leaving out candy and telling you not to eat it. The decision is yours.
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Buzzard3
Guest
What makes you think God knows a soul will end up in hell before that he creates that soul?
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Mmarco
Guest
Very simple; God is omniscient.akck:
What makes you think God knows a soul will end up in hell before that he creates that soul?
Personally I find your hypothesis totally incompatible with the concept of omnipotent and omniscient God.
God knows everyting eternally. There is no “before” and no “after” in His eternal knowledge.
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neophyte
Guest
For much the same reason we do it, I imagine.
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Mmarco
Guest
But we do not create souls.akck:
For much the same reason we do it, I imagine.
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Gorgias
Guest
This point is important – upon creating the universe, God knows everything that happens in the universe. No doubt that His omnipotence covers that knowledge.Buzzard3:
Very simple; God is omniscient.
Personally I find your hypothesis totally incompatible with the concept of omnipotent and omniscient God.
God knows everyting eternally. There is no “before” and no “after” in His eternal knowledge.
The question becomes “does God know everything that doesn’t happen in the universe? Is that part of His omnipotence?”
I’d argue that this – which is called ‘middle knowledge’ – is not part of God’s omnipotence. Therefore, in a way that is prior – not temporally, but metaphysically – God does not know the eternal destiny of souls ‘prior’ to the creation of the universe.
This means that He doesn’t “create in order to condemn”.
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goout
Guest
We participate in our own disposition. We are entirely free to take what God has created, including ourselves, and subject that creation to disorder, misuse, unreason, etc etc etc…neophyte:
But we do not create souls.akck:
For much the same reason we do it, I imagine.
We participate and cooperate. You can rail against God for creating you, but that’s a little silly. Is it better to not exist?
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