Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

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That is implying that God is helpless when it comes to the actions of his creatures. I take it you are a follower of Molina who stated that God can not save everyone because not everyone wants to be saved and so he has no choice but to allow some to choose to be damned. To me the Molinism view makes no sense, it is a pitiful teaching that reduces God to a spectator.
 
Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
According to that line of reasoning, an omnibenevolent God should not punish souls in Hell for eternity. Your objections to my argument are based on that superficial concept of love.
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No. My objections aren’t based on whether a populated hell exists, as such. My objections are based on your assertions that God creates people whom He knows will be condemned – literally, whether God creates people in order that they go to hell.
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Actually you have written , just a few posts ago, that a valid objection to my view is the one raised from unbelievers, i.e. " it’s God who actualizes the person whom He knows will be condemned. That’s precisely the claim against God’s omnibenevolence that unbelievers attempt against us."

According to this superficial view of goodness, typical of unbelievers (view that you are expressing as well), it would follows that God should not punish anybody for eternity in Hell.
My point is that your objections are based on a wrong and superficial view of “omnibenevolence”.
God has always known everithing eternally, and He has created also the souls He has always known will freely choose evil because He has always known that through them He would have saved more souls. He created those souls in order that they freely chose, knowing that through them (and against their own intentions) He would have saved more souls. This view is perfectly coherent with the idea of omnibenevolent and omniscient God.
Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
The eternal punishment in Hell exists because the fear of Hell allows God to save more souls.
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Umm… no. Hell doesn’t exist in order that fear of it might exist. It exists because of the possibility that some might choose it.
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Wrong. If God should create every possibility, He should have created also the possibility for a soul to choose to stop existing, and avoiding eternal punishment.
Eternal punishment exists in order to induce more souls to abandon evil.
Your view does not provide a consistent explanation for the existence of Hell.
 
Souls do not need the fear of eternal punishment to abandon evil, the fear of a long prison sentence should suffice and for the vast majority of people it does. I live in Britain, I know a lot of people who are more decent and moral than I am despite having no religious faith.
 
oliver109 said:
Souls do not need the fear of eternal punishment to abandon evil, the fear of a long prison sentence should suffice and for the vast majority of people it does
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The vast majority is not everybody- Hell exists because the fear of Hell induces more souls to abandon sin.
 
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Mmarco said:
Actually you have written , just a few posts ago, that a valid objection to my view is the one raised from unbelievers, i.e. " it’s God who actualizes the person whom He knows will be condemned. That’s precisely the claim against God’s omnibenevolence that unbelievers attempt against us."
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It’s not a valid view because it comes from unbelievers. It’s a valid objection that’s merely raised by unbelievers.

Rejecting it because it comes from them is the logical fallacy of “ad hominem” attacks.
Mmarco said:
According to this superficial view of goodness, typical of unbelievers (view that you are expressing as well), it would follows that God should not punish anybody for eternity in Hell.
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Not what I’m claiming. Try to stick to what I’m saying, and not what I’m not saying. 😉
Mmarco said:
Eternal punishment exists in order to induce more souls to abandon evil.
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Right. Because God should condemn folks so that others might be saved.
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Umm… no.
Mmarco said:
Your view does not provide a consistent explanation for the existence of Hell.
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Hell exists because those whom God creates are free to choose it. See? Consistent explanation, that doesn’t require God to create in order to condemn. 😉
Mmarco said:
Hell exists because the fear of Hell induces more souls to abandon sin.
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No. Hell exists because we’re free to choose it.
 
People avoid sin because God gives them the grace to avoid it, he gives them the desire to choose good. If Hell was a big enough deterrent then nobody would sin ever because the consequences are so grave.
 
Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
Your view does not provide a consistent explanation for the existence of Hell.
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Hell exists because those whom God creates are free to choose it. See? Consistent explanation, that doesn’t require God to create in order to condemn. 😉
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Wrong, totally inconsistent explanation; in fact, according to your line of reasoning, God shuold have created also the possibility for a soul to freely choose to stop existing, and avoinding eternal punishment. According to unbelivers’ superficial view of omnibenevolence (which you are expressing in your own objections) , an omnibenevolent God shuould allow souls to be free to choose non-existence instead of eternal punishment.
 
oliver109 said:
People avoid sin because God gives them the grace to avoid it, he gives them the desire to choose good. If Hell was a big enough deterrent then nobody would sin ever because the consequences are so grave.
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There is no doubt that God’s grace is necessary, but God’s grace is not irresistible. This is dogma of the Catholic Church
Concilium of Trent, session VI, chapter V:

“while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it.”

 
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman said:
God did not create them to fulfill the prophecy. They were chosen because, by their own actions, they would.
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It is amusing that you could make such a statement while failing to recognize the flaws of your earlier premise. It’s not a direct contradiction, but its as if you are bored and argue for arguments sake. That’s ok, I’m guilty of that as well at times )
 
Some are more full of grace than others, Mary for instance or any of the saints. They had the option to reject God but did not. St Augustine did teach on the fact that God does give some people such efficacious grace that it could be called irresistible though was unable to explain why that is and called it one of the many mysteries of the faith.
 
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You truly think that a soul (bodiless to boot) that was created by God is going to somehow be able to ‘hoodwink’ Him by saying something like “God, what am I going to do next” (something believing that in eternity there is a ‘next’ or a temporal component to begin with” and God is going to say, “You will cock your head to the left” because God ‘sees’ this having happened and that somehow the bodiless soul will have the ability and capacity to say, “Nyanyah I’m turning my head to the right! You’re not the boss of me! I can change my fate!”. . . Or some such.

I’d laugh except if you really imagine such things, it’s pitiful.
 
Mmarco said:
He has created also the souls He has always known will freely choose evil because He has always known that through them He would have saved more souls.
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This statement is absolutely incompatible with the dogma that God desires all be saved. This statement is a heretical one.
 
Harsh realities need not be presented in such uncharitable fashion.
 
Very edgy, buddy. Be sure you don’t cut yourself on that edge.
 
ChocolateCake said:
“…and because to exist is good.”

Says who??
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Well, if we are talking on a biblical perspective, it is made clear throughout the Bible that life is a holy gift that we abuse and misuse. Under the worsts circumstances, like Job’s, it very much seems as if it were better to not have had such a gift imparted onto him. However, that is the whole redemptive arc of the holy book. That life is indeed suffering deep down because of our impious nature, and that God loves us so much that he has come on a cross to deliver us of our sins and so that we may know the full goodness of existence. As such, yes, it may seem to us pitiful creatures that life is more a curse of hatred then a blessing of love, but we read books to the end to know its whole contents, yes? And if our Lord truly be the author of our books, then we should be confident, even if afraid and in slight despair, that he shall have his vision of life, the blessing, known to his children.

On a philosophical perspective, if God is the good and God is actus purus, meaning pure existence, then that thus means that sharing in existence is a good.
 
Mmarco said:
Wrong, totally inconsistent explanation; in fact, according to your line of reasoning, God shuold have created also the possibility for a soul to freely choose to stop existing, and avoinding eternal punishment.
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No, not at all. My assertion doesn’t imply that at all.
Mmarco said:
an omnibenevolent God shuould allow souls to be free to choose non-existence instead of eternal punishment.
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Nope. Annihilation doesn’t attach to this argument. Nice try, though. 😉
 
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