Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

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Mmarco said:
The souls who go to Hell freely choose evil and therefore they are fully responsible for their eternal death.
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Agreed. Yet, according to your construct, God knows who will choose eternal death, and nevertheless, He chooses to give them life. In other words, it’s God who actualizes the person whom He knows will be condemned. That’s precisely the claim against God’s omnibenevolence that unbelievers attempt against us.
Mmarco said:
As I said, you posit a god totally unable to choose to create only souls who will go to heaven
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And you posit a god totally willing to create souls who will only go to hell. Which one is ‘good’ and which ‘evil’? I would say that the god of your construct falls under the latter category.
Mmarco said:
Sincerely, I hope one day you may understand how far you are from the Truth…
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And I hope one day you may understand how far you’re from the teachings of the Church… 😉
Julius_Caesar said:
You don’t use your brain to outwit God.
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And please don’t use yours to misconstrue God… 😉
quaestio45 said:
As such, we may say that God is obligated to not limit creation on the basis of the choices said created would take in the future, for it would be like punishment for what has not even occured.
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Interesting take on it!

I think I’d suggest the observation that “what has not even occurred” doesn’t apply to God, since He knows what happens in all times. To His viewpoint, it is “what occurs” and not “what will occur in the future”. As such, this isn’t a matter of “punishment before offense.”
quaestio45 said:
Therefore, God, if choosing on the basis of consequence to create a being or not, would be in all practicality punishing men for crimes they have not yet commited by ceasing their possibility for existence.
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I think I’d quibble with this, as well. Choosing not to create a person isn’t punishment, per se. A person has to exist before you can punish him. How might one assert that it’s possible to ‘punish’ someone who doesn’t exist? That doesn’t seem to hold up to scrutiny…
 
But why give them a chance if God knows that they will prevent His desire from being carried out?
 
But God gave them the agency to not do so.

If I hand someone a gun knowing that they’ll shoot the person behind them once I do so, am I not at least indirectly responsible for that person’s death?
 
Fine then. God has a man with a gun and an innocent human in two rooms divided by a door. God knows that once the door is opened, the innocent person will be shot. Is God not responsible for their killing if He opens the door? Is God not responsible for someone’s damning if they are actualized with full knowledge that their damnation is the outcome?
ThomasMT said:
I simply cant help you if your emotions cloud your ability to actually read responses to your arguments.
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It would help if you’d actually respond. There’s no emotion on my end, I’m just processing what I’m being given and finding it lacking. That’s your problem, not mine.
 
ThomasMT said:
I would add, all that wasn’t, isn’t, and wont be.
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That’s the question in the whole “middle knowledge” debate. Namely, is ‘middle knowledge’ part of God’s omniscience? Some say ‘yes’, others say ‘no’. It’s an unresolved question, as such. But, when we ask the question in terms of the present dilemma, we find some rather unsavory consequences if we suggest that middle knowledge is part of God’s omniscience.

Please read what you just wrote, and ponder it carefully. You’re suggesting that God uses people as a means to an end, consigning them to hell in the process.

That, alone, defeats your argument. 🤷‍♂️
 
The situation is not something that would ever occur in reality, because God wouldn’t give Himself the choice. Replace God with your name or something, the question was really on “does actualization of a known event confer guilt to the actualizer?”
 
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Mmarco said:
People who are in heaven do always God’s will, therefore , even if they could know God’s foreknowledge, they would never do the opposite.
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It is not question of whether they would or not but whether they could or not.
 
God did not create Judas with the intention of damning him, but chose a man from among the Jews who He knew would betray him given the chance. It could have been anyone, but it was Judas. None of the apostles were made special. What made them special was their response to God among them. A choice.
 
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But is that not the end result of God knowing fates before creation? God creates them knowing they’ll be damned, and so creates them to be? Why else create a soul who will be damned?
 
Gorgias said:
But, when we ask the question in terms of the present dilemma, we find some rather unsavory consequences if we suggest that middle knowledge is part of God’s omniscience.
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Interesting… what’s the main issue? I, on the contrary, would think that the present issue would suffer without God incorporating such knowledge into His plan. It grants me that much more assurance that the plan is just and as perfect as can be.
 
No. It is immoral to choose evil for the sake of a good end. We don’t posit that of God. We might say that God allows evil, and nevertheless causes it to work for the good. That’s fine.

However, the question here isn’t in the “choosing to reject God” of those who reject God. We’re asking the question that precedes that act – we’re asking about the act of creating a person knowing that they will end up in hell. That’s what’s at stake here, and it’s more profound than the question “will this guy choose hell over heaven?”.

Nah. Did it need to be an apostle who betrayed Christ? Certainly not.

Very, very subtle nuance necessary here, since without it, God is an evil tyrant. God allowed Judas to make his choices, and brought good out of them nevertheless.

Still, though, that doesn’t raise to the level of saying “God created Judas knowing that He would condemn Judas to hell.”

Umm… you really are, if you’re saying that He knows they’re going to be damned, but creates them anyway.
ThomasMT said:
Interesting… what’s the main issue?
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“Does God create people whom He knows will go to hell?” In other words, does He create knowing He’s going to condemn them? That seems to posit a god who is not omnibenevolent.
 
Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
The souls who go to Hell freely choose evil and therefore they are fully responsible for their eternal death.
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Agreed. Yet, according to your construct, God knows who will choose eternal death, and nevertheless, He chooses to give them life. In other words, it’s God who actualizes the person whom He knows will be condemned. That’s precisely the claim against God’s omnibenevolence that unbelievers attempt against us.
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The opinion of the unbelievers is not a valid argment.
Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
As I said, you posit a god totally unable to choose to create only souls who will go to heaven
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And you posit a god totally willing to create souls who will only go to hell. Which one is ‘good’ and which ‘evil’? I would say that the god of your construct falls under the latter category.
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I disagree. My view is perfectly coherent with the idea of the omnibenevolent God I believe in. I believe exactly what St. Paul believed Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
You are expressing a superficial view of goodness, typical of unbelievers
Gorgias said:
And I hope one day you may understand how far you’re from the teachings of the Church… 😉
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The Church has never taught what you are saying about a god who is totally unable to choose to create only souls who will go to heaven.
 
A typical line used by many on your side, but one which eventually bears out to be “Whatever, I’ll defer to my personal interpretation of Scripture and Church teaching, not yours.”
 
Didn’t see where it supported your idea and also refuted the logical lines both Gorgias and I are following.
 
STT said:
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Mmarco:
People who are in heaven do always God’s will, therefore , even if they could know God’s foreknowledge, they would never do the opposite.
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It is not question of whether they would or not but whether they could or not.
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Wrong. Foreknowledge is only about what happens, and people in heaven always do what God has forseen, Which is sufficient to prove that your argument is wrong.
God has always known eternally our free choices.
 
Mmarco said:
Wrong. Foreknowledge is only about what happens, and people in heaven always do what God has forseen, Which is sufficient to prove that your argument is wrong.
God has always known eternally our free choices.
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So people in Heaven are not free anymore?
 
If this passage is taken to mean not predestined from their creation, but predestined from before their creation, explain how the Church reconciles that with the idea that God desires all be saved.
 
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