Why does Jesus say he has a God after his resurrection?

[susanj19]

Tomshaikh,
The concept of the Trinity is written ALL over the Bible. The word, trinity, is not; it is a coined word, like transubstantiation, which was later coined to more clearly define a Biblical doctrine already taught and believed and practiced by the very first Christians. Belief in the Trinity in no way contradicts monotheism. Think about it. If Jesus had come and plainly said that he was (also) God and the Holy Spirit too, not a single Jew would have received him as the Truth. Jesus had to explain to his disciples that He and the Father are One, just as He wants all his people to be one church, the one He founded on Peter, the rock. Jesus is the cornerstone of the faith; obviously a person has to believe Jesus’ words to be in the faith. But Peter is the rock of the church, the one Jesus asked to “feed my sheep”. And he gave him the power to loose and bind and the authority to forgive sins. And how is he to know whether or not to forgive someone’s sins unless he knows what those sins are? Jesus’ statement implies audible confession. A person must be sincere in sorrow for one’s sins in order to be forgiven BY JESUS (through the priest). If you read the Bible, you will find the Holy Spirit as a person or expression of God: “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit…”, “The Holy Spirits says…”. You will also find Christ in the Old Test. through the plurality of God in Genesis-“man must not eat from the tree of life…lest he become like ONE OF US.” and “Let US create man…” St. Paul says, “Let us not test CHRIST, as some of them did and suffered death by serpents.” (referring to Moses striking the rock in the desert twice instead of following the Word of God exactly.) All God has to do to create something is to speak and it is done. Wisdom (of God) is the “craftsman”, not another creator. “God said…let there by light.” God creates through his spoken Word and Jesus is called the Word of God because the Father sent Him forth to more fully reveal Himself. There are early Christian writings and historical records by atheist historians that attest to the fact that belief in Jesus as God is the doctrine of Christians. These were written before the apostles died. Clement’s letter to the Romans explicitly states “Jesus, our God, …” This was written in 106AD. My suggestion for you would be to read the Early Christian Fathers writings and compare them to the Bible. You will (by the power of the Holy Spirit) find the Truth. Pray first for the God’s Spirit to guide your thoughts. Please pray for me and I will also keep you in my prayers. God bless you.

 

[susanj19]

Daniel Marsh
Thanks so much for your example of the President, General and Private. Your clarification of the difference between role and rank is helpful. The JWs I speak with would say that Jesus never tried to equate himself with God. But you are right, they ignore the phrase, “being in the form of God”. They say that this means Jesus has all the qualities of God because he existed with God, just the two of them, long before any other creation. This is indeed a flimsy argument on their part. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[susanj19]

Dear ACL,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. You explain things so well. I already knew the facts about Jesus after his resurrection; I guess I just worded it wrong. I meant that Jesus was no longer “lower than the angels”, that he was restored to the glory he had in the beginning, no longer humbled as one of us. I know he was still a divine person who took on a second nature, humanity. Somebody else gave an example, I think it was in the Holy Trinity thread, that if you explain to the JWs that the President of the US is also a General and a Private (compare rank and role with that of the Trinity) that they would not believe the General and the Private were the same President. The verse that states, “Jesus, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.” You probably know the book and ch.-I’m still working on the numbers There’s no denying here that Jesus is God. Certain verses are so hard for them to understand differently than the interpretation that they were taught; such as “God cannot die.” I tried explaining that only Jesus’ created humanity died, that He was always a divine person whose Spirit cannot die, but they actually believe every person’s spirit does die, until God raises them up again at the end of the ages. They get agitated when I quote the verses, Heb.11:5 Enoch did not die. And, Lk 12:59 “I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny.” And Mt.12:32 Christ refers to the sinner for whom “there is no forgiveness, either in this world or in the world to come.” This implies expiation can occur after death; and yet nobody can enter heaven unless perfectly clean or holy. And that before Jesus’ resurrection, he descended among the dead “to preach to the spirits in prison”. So although they say they are solid in their JW faith, there’s much that their faith cannot explain. Only the church knows the Truth in fullness and unfortunately this catholic church, which Christ prayed would remain one church, has broken into many differrent faiths. How wonderful heaven will be when all are reunited in faith again!

 

[ACL]

Well thanks for enlightening me but I am afraid you still dont fill me with confidence

I don’t have to. God gives people that grace to find Him.

, I have to understand things with substantial backing, not some abstract words thrown around,

Yes. I agree with you. The Catholic Christian faith never says that people need to abandon reason.

One more thing, the Catholic church has over 2000 years of solid scripture and tradition backing it. So if you count on it as your foundation, you can’t be wrong Of course you need to understand the foundation though

So no offence but I like ur (name removed by moderator)uts only if I can relate it to facts…

None taken. Good approach. Although as far as I remember I quoted from the Bible. Now if that cannot be taken as a “fact” then I don’t know what more you need.

To help you on your way, might I suggest the following books (in addition to the Bible of course)

A Concise History of the Catholic Church (Paperback)
by Thomas Bokenkotter

Catechism of the Catholic Church: Second Edition

Eusebius: The Church History (Paperback) by Eusebius (Author)

The New Complete Works of Josephus by Flavius Josephus

and last but not least

The Faith of the Early Fathers by William A. Jurgens

one more thing - except for the concise history I found the rest of the books in India - Bangalore in fact - in various normal and Catholic book shops

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

James 2:26 (King James Version)

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Jw’s misdefine death as soul sleep, and misdefine the wicked final place as destruction, ceasing to exist. So, when they speak of death they think of one ceasing to exist or one being asleep until the second coming. As you can see from James, death is simply defined as seperation of body and spirit. Since, Jesus is fully God and fully man, his spirit can seperate from his body, thus death. But, he would still be in existence in the spirit.

Eph 4
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

I Peter 3
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Another argument concerning the torture of the wicked they have not been able to respond to is concerning the resurrected bobies of the wicked. Basically, everyone righteous or wicked will be raised with the same imperishable, immortal body. Thus one cooking in “eternal punishment” Matthew 25:46 in fire, their bobies will not be comsummed. I Cor 15 is addressed to Christians, but it says the dead, as if it were speaking in general terms, not just the righeous dead, will be raised with an indestructable body.

I Cor 15

52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality,

Note On Matthew 25:46, if one limits the time frame for “eternal punishment” then one also limits the time frame for “eternal life” because the greek word for eternal is the same in both cases there.