Why does one hate the Catholic Church?

[Pilgrimage]

“Deviating from faith, they are implicated in the darkness of perpetual blindness, although they have the day of Christ and the light of the Church before them; while seeing nothing, they open their mouth as if they knew everything, keen for vain things and dull for things eternal.” St Ambrose,

Dear Wisdomseeker,

St Ambrose was speaking about scientists and science was he not? An indulgence in science can dull the senses to God’s grace and cause an individual to strive for their own glory and vanity.

Now, back to your faith. Can you declare Christ?

You see, a deviation from faith is not what you think.

God bless

 

[paperwight]

. Some of them we simply call “practicing catholics” who are Catholic but don’t go to Church or do much associated with the religion, but these people are still Catholic. QUOTE

This is such a strange sentence that perhaps it is a typo?

Surely ‘practising Catholics’ precisely ARE the onnes who go to Church etc., not to the ones who don’t.

Perhaps you meant to say ‘cultural Catholics’? I fee it is important to clarify for the sake of non-Rcs who may be reading.

 

[Roblox84]

Roblox84;6378032:

. Some of them we simply call “practicing catholics” who are Catholic but don’t go to Church or do much associated with the religion, but these people are still Catholic. QUOTE

This is such a strange sentence that perhaps it is a typo?

Surely ‘practising Catholics’ precisely ARE the onnes who go to Church etc., not to the ones who don’t.

Perhaps you meant to say ‘cultural Catholics’? I fee it is important to clarify for the sake of non-Rcs who may be reading.

yeah sorry about that. Non practicing Catholics is what I meant.

 

[Darron_Steele]

Not to deflect guilt, blame or justice, but I recall reading in February or March of '06 or '07 in the Detroit Free Press that incidences of abuse in churches other than the RC Church were just as likely, …

Not exactly.

In other church groups, if a clergy pervert molests a kid, as a norm s/he will be reported to the authorities for prosecution. The resources of that church group will not be complicit in a cover up, or to protect the guilty from justice. That means if an abuse happens, in the vast majority of cases, it is going to be reported.

In the current practice of the RC Church, every effort is made to keep these offenses hidden and the pervert protected from justice. Law enforcement is not cooperated with. The resources of the RC Church will normally be used to keep abuse from being found out.

The comparison cited is based upon reported figures. As a consequence, it is not correct. In other church groups, the figures are going to be nearly complete, but for the RC Church, they are not: there are significantly more.

I think practicing Catholics make a great contribution to the Lord’s work here on the earth. However, I think we have to be fair: it is not fair to try to paint' outside church groups with the brush’ of comparability to the RC Church on kid safety.

I really wish the Vatican would help the RC Church and simply mandate that local parishes are to follow applicable law on these things. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would be so resistant to doing what is right on this. It is a blight on a church group full of good Christians.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Not exactly.

In other church groups, if a clergy pervert molests a kid, as a norm s/he will be reported to the authorities for prosecution. The resources of that church group will not be complicit in a cover up, or to protect the guilty from justice. That means if an abuse happens, in the vast majority of cases, it is going to be reported.

In the current practice of the RC Church, every effort is made to keep these offenses hidden and the pervert protected from justice. Law enforcement is not cooperated with. The resources of the RC Church will normally be used to keep abuse from being found out.

The comparison cited is based upon reported figures. As a consequence, it is not correct. In other church groups, the figures are going to be nearly complete, but for the RC Church, they are not: there are significantly more.

I think practicing Catholics make a great contribution to the Lord’s work here on the earth. However, I think we have to be fair: it is not fair to try to paint' outside church groups with the brush’ of comparability to the RC Church on kid safety.

you are right no comparison should be made since the CC is in place of authority and has its own laws that is to be used to chastize those who transgress against them. only this time for what reason i dont know other than the attacks of the devil on the Church to discredit the Church is the real reason. the Church must go through such things. there was a period of lack of discernment among the leaders of the Church. but we dont condemn the Church for this. we pray that we also dont fall into temptation as to sin against God and His House, the Church. when our brothers in the Church sins, we must not condenm them but pray that we too dont fall in the same. Jesus Himself said that scandals would come, but owe to those who these sins come. so, here we have the assurance of our Lord that these things will happen. we must stay firm in our Faith until the end. know what Jesus Himself said. in His Church we have the assurance that the sins of man in her cannot separate us from Him. Glory be to God.

 

[tweetymom]

I’ve been accused right here on CAF as hating the church. I hate no church. I hate no one. I want us all to recognize our unity in Christ. I’ve also been told here by a Catholic I will go to hell if I do not attend Mass on Nov 1 and do not repent. But the same person told me if I go to another church she could not then judge if I was going to hell and did not attend Mass on Nov 1.

Matt I have been told the samething on here and much worse. So don’t fret about it. It is too bad no matter our religion we cannot be one in Christ. I am with all believers,Praise God.

 

[tweetymom]

Sadly as a Catholic I agree the scandals have hurt the church tremendously. Another thing I have observed from being within the Church is how many Catholics seemed to “brush aside” the accusations, would even doubt the victims of the abuse while standing by the priests and hierarchy. This made a horrendous situation worse IMHO. And while yes sin is sin and no man is so infallible as to avoid sin. I can still understand how the the entire scandal left questions among people as to how a true Church’s hierarchy founded by Christ could end up and resort to such cover up when the gates of hell are not to prevail. My heart still weeps for all the victims. May they and the guilty find peace.

It is all a sad and serious scandal. Been there done that. The worse to me is the cover up, been there . This is one of my biggest problems with the CC. I do not hate any Church.

 

[twopekinguys]

There is soooooo much wrong with this that my response would be many times longer just to correct it. Brother/Sister, I say this with as much love and charity as a man can muster. Please Please Please, go to your Parish Priest and ask him to explain what is wrong with your statement. I am a cradle Catholic and was not served well in terms of my formative education in the Church, however, I have taken the time and effort to understand the teachings of the Catholic Church. Your explanations are precisely why other Christian faiths are able to sway some Catholics away from the Church. If you truly try to learn the faith properly you will answer your own questions. From my perspective and of some theologians I have researched, if a Catholic does not believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he/she is not Catholic at all. That is the foundation of the faith believed by all of the Church fathers all the way back to the Apostles and Christ Himself. Please learn your faith, you are missing so much.

You are right on target with your response.

I am the Lay Director of RCIA in our parish, and several years ago, we had a gentleman that came from a fundamentalist background who struggled with Real Presence in the Eucharist.

I will give the man credit. He tried and tried, and prayed so hard for an understanding. Unfortunately, it was something he couldn’t understand or believe.

On Good Friday, he came to me and told me that he was dropping out of RCIA. Remember, he was to join the church the next day on Holy Saturday. He told me (and I will never forget it), “I can lie to you, and I can lie to the priest, but I will NOT lie to God.”

As hard as it was to hear, I respected his decision. It wasn’t an easy one for him to reach, and I truly believe he tried.

Long story short, he left the class, and did not join the Church. However, the seeds were planted. It wasn’t 2 years later, and he was back. He GOT it. . He joined the church, has a very strong faith, and great devotion to the Eucharist. He is even discerning the priesthood!

He later told me that while the classes did help him in understanding, it was his private talks with a priest, and time in front of the Blessed Sacrament that really helped to open his eyes and his heart.

 

[twopekinguys]

Sadly as a Catholic I agree the scandals have hurt the church tremendously. Another thing I have observed from being within the Church is how many Catholics seemed to “brush aside” the accusations, would even doubt the victims of the abuse while standing by the priests and hierarchy. This made a horrendous situation worse IMHO. And while yes sin is sin and no man is so infallible as to avoid sin. I can still understand how the the entire scandal left questions among people as to how a true Church’s hierarchy founded by Christ could end up and resort to such cover up when the gates of hell are not to prevail. My heart still weeps for all the victims. May they and the guilty find peace.

Unfortunately, you can’t provide a solution based soley on “accusations”.

People are falsely accused of a variety of things. Are we to automatically assume guilt based on an accusation?

Do you remember the case where a gentleman accused Cardinal Bernadine of Chicago of sexual abuse? He ultimately recanted, and dropped his lawsuit.

Should we have automatically taken the accusers word for it?

The same should apply to anyone who is accused. Just because someone is accused of something, doesn’t mean they are guilty.

Ultimately, it boils down to this. Is the Church perfect? Yes, but the people who are running it are not.

 

[elvisman]

It absolutely destroyed many. When a church proclaims to be the only true church established by Christ and then its clergy commits horrendous homosexual sex crimes such as these against minors, it leaves the deepest scars possible; deeper than any other church could leave in the eyes of these victims.

**The Catholic Church IS the only Church established by Christ - but that doesn’t mean that there are no sinful people within it and they are all perfect.
This is a ridiculous and extremely ignorant charge.

Jesus chose Judas as one of the future leaders of his Church.
**'Nuff said.

 

[elvisman]

I’ve been accused right here on CAF as hating the church. I hate no church. I hate no one. I want us all to recognize our unity in Christ. I’ve also been told here by a Catholic I will go to hell if I do not attend Mass on Nov 1 and do not repent. But the same person told me if I go to another church she could not then judge if I was going to hell and did not attend Mass on Nov 1.

I don’t believe you hate the Church.
You are ignorant about what the Catholic Church teaches and have, therefore, made some pretty ignorant statements about the faith.

And, while you may not hate the Church - you have a deep disdain for those who DO know their Catholic faith and defend the Church - which is the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-26) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by Proallen
It absolutely destroyed many. When a church proclaims to be the only true church established by Christ and then its clergy commits horrendous homosexual sex crimes such as these against minors, it leaves the deepest scars possible; deeper than any other church could leave in the eyes of these victims. **

True. it could. it can leave a terrible scar. but we must remember that Jesus commanded us to forgive. He never specified what sins to be forgive. obviously we only forgive those who sinned against the other. the vengeance comes from God alone. those whi commited such crimes fell into temptation and only God knows why. He will judge them. the Church will remain sinless and without stain. Some people developed the idea that because the Church was built by Christ that everyone must be without sin. just look at the Hebrew people. they are the chosen people of God. how many times they sinned against God, yet God never abandoned His people and neither He will abandon His Church because of sins of some. people have to understand this. we all have sin against God. it is very unlikely that God found a perfect people in somewhere else then followed those perfect people. protestants have this idea that they are perfect and Catholics are very sinful therefore God is not with the CC.

 

[TedDC]

The Catholic Church IS the only Church established by Christ - but that *doesn’t *mean that there are no sinful people within it and they are all perfect.
This is a ridiculous and extremely ignorant charge.

Jesus chose Judas as one of the future leaders of his Church.
***'Nuff ***said.

Yes, of course we are all sinners, and I for one don’t expect the clergy to be without sin. The problem is, the Church claims for itself an extraordinary degree of authority, which it asserts comes directly from God. Doesn’t that come with an corresponding expectation of extraordinary goodness? When the same hierarchy which failed to protect innocents against this abuse commands that I not eat meat on certain days, under pain of eternal damnation - and wraps itself in the “unerring guidance of the Holy Spirit” - well, sorry, I’m callin’ BS!

 

[elvisman]

Yes, of course we are all sinners, and I for one don’t expect the clergy to be without sin. The problem is, the Church claims for itself an extraordinary degree of authority, which it asserts comes directly from God. Doesn’t that come with an corresponding expectation of extraordinary goodness? When the same hierarchy which failed to protect innocents against this abuse commands that I not eat meat on certain days, under pain of eternal damnation - and wraps itself in the “unerring guidance of the Holy Spirit” - well, sorry, I’m callin’ BS!

Then, you’re calling "BS" on Jesus himself, who GAVE the Chusrch SUPREME authority on earth. That’s your problem - not mine. I have faith in our Lord.**
The Church doesn’t “claim for itself an extraordinary degree of authority”, as you put it. Jesus Christ (God) himself told the Apostles that the Authority he had was passed onto them and the church (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23). St. Paul called the Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Nobody in the history of the Church ever said that all of the people within the Church were perfect - on the contrary - were are all fallible human beings, even the Pope.

The only time infallibility is ever claimed is when he speaks from the Chair of Peter (ex-cathedra) on matters of faith and morals - revealed truth.

In short - if you don’t like that fact that the Church is the Supreme Authority on earth - take it up with God. I guarantee, you’ll lose the argument.

 

[TedDC]

Then, you’re calling "BS" on Jesus himself, who GAVE the Chusrch SUPREME authority on earth. That’s* your* problem - not mine. I have faith in our Lord.
The Church doesn’t “claim for itself an extraordinary degree of authority”, as you put it. Jesus Christ (God) himself told the Apostles that the Authority he had was passed onto them and the church (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23). St. Paul called the Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Nobody in the history of the Church ever said that all of the people within the Church were perfect - on the contrary - were are all fallible human beings, even the Pope.

The only time infallibility is ever claimed is when he speaks from the Chair of Peter (ex-cathedra) on matters of faith and morals - revealed truth.

In short - if you don’t like that fact that the Church is the Supreme Authority on earth - take it up with God. I guarantee, you’ll lose the argument.

You have your faith, I have my God-given common sense and judgment. I think God and I will get along just fine, thank you.

 

[romesweethome]

Just like all Protestant Churches are somewhat different, so are Catholic Churches.

This is not a true statement. The Catholic church has unity that no protestant churches share.

#2 – The “But Catholics don’t believe the same things either” Argument

James White likes to point out that we Catholics cannot accuse Sola Scriptura to be unworkable because of disunity of faith in Protestantism, on the grounds that there is also disunity in the Catholic Church, that is, theological pluralism (differing opinions).

Well, let’s look at that: Unity can be corporate, extrinsic, intrinsic, and supernatural.
Corporate unity: all members agree totally on all issues in all areas.
Extrinsic unity: Creeds and Confessions (Traditions) state what all should believe.
Intrinsic unity: Magisterial teaching that affirms what is the right and wrong understanding of truth.
Supernatural unity: the participation in the body of Christ.

1. Protestants have many creeds and no authority to enforce one creed above another. Thus, no one can ever be infallibly certain who is wrong and who is right. The nature of the disunity here is then both extrinsic (the members: sins, pre-conceived ideas, biases leading to disparate creeds–James White attests to such problems) and it is intrinsic (there is no authority to settle debates on who is correct).
2. Catholics have one creed and they have the authority to enforce it. So, while we do have corporate disunity in Catholicism (cafeteria Catholics, conservatives, liberals, etc.), we do not have extrinsic or intrinsic disunity.

The Catholic arrangement is identical to the New Testament Church. So, the disunity in Protestantism is of a different nature than the disunity in Catholicism. Thus, the “disunity” argument destroys the Protestant position without destroying the Catholic position, for while the Catholic Church may have corporate disunity, it does not intrinsic or extrinsic disunity, unlike Protestantism.

catholicsource.net/articles/white-staples.htm

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, of course we are all sinners, and I for one don’t expect the clergy to be without sin. The problem is, the Church claims for itself an extraordinary degree of authority, which it asserts comes directly from God. Doesn’t that come with an corresponding expectation of extraordinary goodness? When the same hierarchy which failed to protect innocents against this abuse commands that I not eat meat on certain days, under pain of eternal damnation - and wraps itself in the “unerring guidance of the Holy Spirit” - well, sorry, I’m callin’ BS!

I understand your point.

 

[Proallen]

The Catholic Church IS the only Church established by Christ - but that *doesn’t *mean that there are no sinful people within it and they are all perfect.
This is a ridiculous and extremely ignorant charge.

Jesus chose Judas as one of the future leaders of his Church.
***'Nuff ***said.

So then it doesn’t matter whether a Baptist church does this or yours? So then you don’t believe that there is any more offense of this against the so called only Church of God than with some Protestant denom? Hmmm. I thought that you viewed yourselves much more highly than that.

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t believe you hate the Church.
You are ignorant about what the Catholic Church teaches and have, therefore, made some pretty ignorant statements about the faith.

And, while you may not hate the Church - you have a deep disdain for those who DO know their Catholic faith and defend the Church - which is the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-26) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

Elvis, you need to learn the difference between being ignorant about what the CC teaches and simply not agreeing with something. Big difference. I could always change my ID to Educated if imperfect Catholic but then you would fit that description as well, as would all of us fit the imperfect part, including our non Catholic brothers and sisters here. Let the man without sin cast the first stone. I have no disdain for you or anyone. Peace.

 

[tweetymom]

Elvis, you need to learn the difference between being ignorant about what the CC teaches and simply not agreeing with something. Big difference. I could always change my ID to Educated if imperfect Catholic but then you would fit that description as well, as would all of us fit the imperfect part, including our non Catholic brothers and sisters here. Let the man without sin cast the first stone. I have no disdain for you or anyone. Peace.