Why does one hate the Catholic Church?

[adrift]

Actually, not so.

Thank you for the updated information. This is good news.

When were these changes made?

I don’t know when. These changes were already in effect in out diocese when I began with the religious education programs at my Church in 2001. We are required to talk to the children and tell them where they should go to get help.

 

[Palaeologos]

Additionally, St. Paul said that “ALL” Scripture was profitable. Other faiths limit their understanding of “ALL” to be all of the Holy Bible rather than everything inspired by the Holy Spirit. St. Paul also said that “…remember ALL that I have taught youi…” Surely everything he did and said is not included in the Holy Bible just as everything Christ said and did is not written down in its entirety.

And let’s not forget that when St Paul was talking about “Scripture” he meant what we today would call the Old Testament. The Gospels hadn’t yet been written when he wrote that sentence. (Of course, this doesn’t rule out the possibility that the Holy Ghost was referring to the New Testament, as well…)

 

[elvisman]

Look at how the replacement was chosen all believers were involved in choosing. The Holy Spirit was involved-they prayed and cast lots.

Acts1
15In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry.”

18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20"For," said Peter, “it is written in the book of Psalms,
" ‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and,
" ‘May another take his place of leadership.’ 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Bishops in the early Church years were voted on by all the people of that congregation.

"For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." We have in our hands today the writings of the witnesses of the resurrection!!

WRONG. Bishops were NOT voted on by all of the believers - they were appointed by the Church - as they are today.

There were MANY more in the congregation, as you put it, than the 120 numbered here. 1 Cor. 15:4-6 tells us that he was seen by over people at one time.

 

[elvisman]

However, CMatt25: those of us who know anything about Catholics and Catholicism know that this individual is not representative of you all.

He is a self-appointed Inquisitor in a time when the old Inquisitions are gone. Rather than roast those he decides are `wayward’ with fire, he roasts them with overheated words.

Most Catholics are capable of discussing their faiths with outsiders and `not entirely convinced’ adherents in ways that are fair and charitable.

I remember watching a priest argue with a Catholic who had approached him about birth control. I did not understand why she approached him to argue with him; he does not set the Vatican’s policies and has no (name removed by moderator)ut. He is to uphold those policies. He discussed their disagreement calmly and without slurring her.

He was so nice that I wanted to step in and defend him, pointing out that he has no (name removed by moderator)ut with the Vatican’s policies and must uphold them. If she was not happy with the policy, she could either simply not follow it or leave. I stayed out of it, of course. In the entire exchange, no matter how worked up she got, he not once impugned her faithfulness or loyalty to Catholicism or said anything negative about her.

Many laypeople could benefit from the examples of priests and laypeople just like him. Fortunately, Catholics who approach disagreement similar to him seem to be the majority.

Just admonishing the unruly, as Scripture calls me to do (1 Thess. 5:14).
I never give my opinions when discussing the faith - only the facts as revealed through Christ’s Church.

**I simply will not abide people like CMatt25, Tweetymom and others to pervert the truth as they see fit. Sure - THEY will have to answer to God for this, but in the meantime - they are leading people away from the truth. **

It is up to faithful Catholics to defend the truth - not with opinions as you charge - but with the facts.

 

[Darron_Steele]

I don’t know when. These changes were already in effect in out diocese when I began with the religious education programs at my Church in 2001. We are required to talk to the children and tell them where they should go to get help.

Oh, so in other words, this was only the practice of your diocese.

That makes sense. It is unfortunate, but general practice since 2001 has been different from that of your diocese.

Here is the context of my remarks to which you objected:

Not to deflect guilt, blame or justice, but I recall reading in February or March of '06 or '07 in the Detroit Free Press that incidences of abuse in churches other than the RC Church were just as likely,…

This was an unfair inadvertent attack on other church groups. I hate to discuss the scandals, I really do, but in light of that attack, this had to be said:

Not exactly.

In other church groups, if a clergy pervert molests a kid, as a norm s/he will be reported to the authorities for prosecution. The resources of that church group will not be complicit in a cover up, or to protect the guilty from justice. That means if an abuse happens, in the vast majority of cases, it is going to be reported.

In the current practice of the RC Church, every effort is made to keep these offenses hidden and the pervert protected from justice. Law enforcement is not cooperated with. The resources of the RC Church will normally be used to keep abuse from being found out.

The comparison cited is based upon reported figures. As a consequence, it is not correct. In other church groups, the figures are going to be nearly complete, but for the RC Church, they are not: there are significantly more.

I think practicing Catholics make a great contribution to the Lord’s work here on the earth. However, I think we have to be fair: it is not fair to try to paint' outside church groups with the brush’ of comparability to the RC Church on kid safety.

I really wish the Vatican would help the RC Church and simply mandate that local parishes are to follow applicable law on these things. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would be so resistant to doing what is right on this. It is a blight on a church group full of good Christians.

I take issue with this:

Since I work with children in our parish, I know that this statement is FALSE. The current practice is that even if there is just an innuendo a priest is removed from service. We lost a pastor this way. He had been accused and cleared but while he was accused he was not allowed near children. Any suspected abuse must be reported to the law immediately. Everyone must have a background check done by the law. That is the TRUE current practice. But you want to hold on to the past. …

Let me be clear:
You are not reporting on current practice throughout the denomination. You clarified that you are talking about the current practice of your diocese beginning 2001.

I learned about the sexual abuse scandals and how the Vatican and many parishes and diocese handle them in 2001 and thereafter. It made me SAD. Your accusation that I desire the way things are to be the case is not true. If things ever change all across your denomination, I would be happy.

I only remarked about this problem because someone tried to unfairly `paint’ other church groups as handling child sexual abuse similarly to the Catholic church group was not fair. I normally prefer not to discuss this problem at all, and wish that there was nothing to discuss.

 

[tweetymom]

Oh, so in other words, this was only the practice of your diocese.

That makes sense. It is unfortunate, but general practice since 2001 has been different from that of your diocese.

Here is the context of my remarks to which you objected:This was an unfair inadvertent attack on other church groups. I hate to discuss the scandals, I really do, but in light of that attack, this had to be said:I take issue with this:Let me be clear:
You are not reporting on current practice throughout the denomination. You clarified that you are talking about the current practice of your diocese beginning 2001.

I learned about the sexual abuse scandals and how the Vatican and many parishes and diocese handle them in 2001 and thereafter. It made me SAD. Your accusation that I desire the way things are to be the case is not true. If things ever change all across your denomination, I would be happy.

I only remarked about this problem because someone tried to unfairly `paint’ other church groups as handling child sexual abuse similarly to the Catholic church group was not fair. I normally prefer not to discuss this problem at all, and wish that there was nothing to discuss.

Let me add to that about abuse in other places besides the CC. It is sick no matter where it is at and needs to be addressed rather than slid under the carpet.

 

[kenofken]

Not all of us non-Catholics and ex-Catholics hate the church. Even though I disagree with most of its teachings, I don’t have a “problem” with the church. I followed my conscience and experience with the divine elsewhere and so I’m not interested in lobbying the church to change any of its positions to suit me. It’s only when the church attempts to force its beliefs on the rest of us or when some members go out of their way to disrepect me that I have a problem.

 

[tweetymom]

Not all of us non-Catholics and ex-Catholics hate the church. Even though I disagree with most of its teachings, I don’t have a “problem” with the church. I followed my conscience and experience with the divine elsewhere and so I’m not interested in lobbying the church to change any of its positions to suit me. It’s only when the church attempts to force its beliefs on the rest of us or when some members go out of their way to disrepect me that I have a problem.

I don’t have a problem either and I love God and my hats off to you

 

[elvisman]

Make no mistake, I believe elvisman to be completely correct and just in his admonishments. It is the harshness in the delivery of his words with which I disagree. We are called to be kind and charitable with our works.

Additionally, regardless of how long I have been a member of this forum or how many of the threads I have read, I know kindness and I know the lack of it.

May we all be of one mind, spirit, and faith in the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOLSTOLIC CHURCH.

**I will discuss the faith when charitable questions are asked and I will defend the faith when it is attacked. I make no apology for my defense of the faith because those who are (not you, per se) making these attacks on me for doing so are the very same people who have attacked the Church or have perverted God’s truth and present it as fact. **

**When I said that you were new here and haven’t seen or read the vitriole against the Church that exists here - I meant no offense. I was merely pointing out a fact. We are to be charitable - but we are not to coddle the unruly and not to be made footstools for those who hate the Church. Paul knew when to admonish and scold - and even when to shake the dust from his sandals turn his back on these kinds of people. **

When non-Catholics attacks - that is one thing. But when it comes from those who profess to be Catholic - that is an entirely different kettle of fish. Those are people to whom the truth has been revealed and have chosen instead to twist the truth. Those ar the unruly that we are to admonish (1 Thess. 5:14).

 

[elvisman]

And you are so right. But some people feed their ego this way. Thats one reason to ignore nasty people who ever they are.

**And others pervert the truth and pass it on as fact to those less-catechized via RCIA classes. So sad.
A perfect reason to ignore them . . .

 

[fbl9]

Make no mistake, I believe elvisman to be completely correct and just in his admonishments.

Elvisman beleives what he knows

It is the harshness in the delivery of his words with which I disagree. We are called to be kind and charitable with our works.

This true yet it is very difficult to express with only written words charity.

Additionally, regardless of how long I have been a member of this forum or how many of the threads I have read, I know kindness and I know the lack of it.

Hang around long enough to be insulted and have your faith mocked. You will develop a thicker skin which makes it harder for one’s true love to shine forth.

May we all be of one mind, spirit, and faith in the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOLSTOLIC CHURCH.

Amen to the last line.

Evangalize because you love God and want others to experience/know His love…Correct because you fear for other’s souls.

 

[adrift]

Oh, so in other words, this was only the practice of your diocese.

That makes sense. It is unfortunate, but general practice since 2001 has been different from that of your diocese.

.

You are WRONG!. It is NOT just my diocese. I don’t know any diocese that has not implemented the same as this diocese. I think you were waiting to ponce on me. You almost had me convinced that you just were ignorant but now I think my first impression was true about you.

You are not reporting on current practice throughout the denomination. You clarified that you are talking about the current practice of your diocese beginning 2001.

I learned about the sexual abuse scandals and how the Vatican and many parishes and diocese handle them in 2001 and thereafter. It made me SAD. Your accusation that I desire the way things are to be the case is not true. If things ever change all across your denomination, I would be happy.

I only remarked about this problem because someone tried to unfairly `paint’ other church groups as handling child sexual abuse similarly to the Catholic church group was not fair. I normally prefer not to discuss this problem at all, and wish that there was nothing to discuss

Again you are wrong. I was “reporting” on current events. I don’t belong to a denomination I belong to a Church. I was speaking of the entire Church. You are twisting what I said for your preconceived agenda.
You asked when these changes occurred.
I answered

I don’t know when. These changes were already in effect in out diocese when I began with the religious education programs at my Church in 2001. We are required to talk to the children and tell them where they should go to get help.

This does not say that ONLY my diocese changed but that I became aware of them at that time. :tsktsk:
I don’t think it will do any good but I will tell you that if you go to the USCCB web site and do a search on the subject you will see what has been done generally but gosh then you would learn the truth. There we come to the subject of this thread. It is easier to hate than to learn the truth.

Elvisman you have me convinced.

 

[Darron_Steele]

You are WRONG!. It is NOT just my diocese. I don’t know any diocese that has not implemented the same as this diocese. I think you were waiting to ponce on me. You almost had me convinced that you just were ignorant but now I think my first impression was true about you.

Again you are wrong. I was “reporting” on current events. I don’t belong to a denomination I belong to a Church. I was speaking of the entire Church. You are twisting what I said for your preconceived agenda.
You asked when these changes occurred.
… It is easier to hate than to learn the truth.
…

I thank you for the reference to the website. I found both the organization’s website and the Charter. It is good that in 2005 changes were implemented to deal with the problem internally.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on
a) how proactive the denomination is, in general, on dealing with this problem in accordance with civil law, and
b) whether or not I actually hate the Catholic Church.
It is apparent that you will think whatever you want about the situation – and about me for not agreeing with you.

For someone who allegedly hates the Catholic Church, I sure have taken a whole lot of personal abuse on another board for speaking up for Catholics. A few folks here sure are flippant with accusing people of hating the Catholic Church or Catholics. Nonetheless, it is apparent you will think whatever you want.

If I really hated the Catholic Church, I would be HAPPY that things are the way they seem to be in regards to this problem because it would make good ammo. Instead, it makes me SAD. I wish the problem did not exist because it is a black smudge on a group full of great Christians. Somehow, this just does not seem consistent with hating the Catholic Church – but again, you will think whatever you want.

I only remarked about this problem because someone tried to unfairly `paint’ other church groups as handling child sexual abuse similarly to the Catholic church group. I normally prefer not to discuss this problem at all, and wish that there was nothing to discuss – but other church groups were unfairly attacked.

One thing is for certain: when other church groups are unfairly attacked by any one of you, I will speak up even if the subject is unpleasant. To do so is not hating the Catholic Church or Catholics, however much you might like to pretend it is.

 

[Darron_Steele]

Let me add something else:

It seems like for a FEW of you, anytime someone says something you do not like about Catholicism or any part of the Catholic Church, you immediately start railing the likes of `You hate the Catholic Church.’ You do not seem to give a moment’s consideration as to whether your accusations are true or not.

You FEW apparently do not think Catholicism or the Catholic Church is solid enough to take some unfavorable comments and face discussion of the relevant issues. You promptly try to prevent discussion of the issues by immediately smearing whoever does not think what s/he is `supposed to,’ claiming s/he hates the Catholic Church or its people.

I for one think that the Catholic Church is solid enough to take some unfavorable comments and face discussion of the actual issues. I, as a non-Catholic, seem to have a higher regard for the Catholic Church than a few of you.

 

[Protestant101]

Let me add something else:

It seems like for a FEW of you, anytime someone says something you do not like about Catholicism or any part of the Catholic Church, you immediately start railing the likes of `You hate the Catholic Church.’ You do not seem to give a moment’s consideration as to whether your accusations are true or not.

You FEW apparently do not think Catholicism or the Catholic Church is solid enough to take some unfavorable comments and face discussion of the relevant issues. You promptly try to prevent discussion of the issues by immediately smearing whoever does not think what s/he is `supposed to,’ claiming s/he hates the Catholic Church or its people.

I for one think that the Catholic Church is solid enough to take some unfavorable comments and face discussion of the actual issues. I, as a non-Catholic, seem to have a higher regard for the Catholic Church than a few of you.

I have taken the time to read through this thread; and I was happy to see your post here. Essentially; I agree with what you are saying. It never ceases to amaze me how some will say “The Lord is leading,” if I am in agreement; yet, if I dare to disagree with or dislike a particular doctrine or belief; then right away the accusations of “hatred” are drawn from their broken cisterns of error.

 

[PORATH]

Elvisman beleives what he knowsThis true yet it is very difficult to express with only written words charity.Hang around long enough to be insulted and have your faith mocked. You will develop a thicker skin which makes it harder for one’s true love to shine forth.Amen to the last line.

Evangalize because you love God and want others to experience/know His love…Correct because you fear for other’s souls.

Perhaps I am communicating poorly so let me, again, clarify my position.

1. I am a firm defender of the faith although I don’t have the history on this forum that many of you clearly possess. I have been around the block a few times and have endured attacks on the Church and my faith even when I was ill prepared to defend Her or myself. I know well the frustrating arguments with those outside the Catholic Church.
2. Kindness and Charity are a must when discussing AND defending the Catholic Church. 1 Cor 4:8-13 speaks to this IMO although it’s breadth is larger than this situation.
3. As indicated by elvisman, it is our responsibility to correct and defend. How we do that is important for ourselves and produces results commensurate with our attitude and intent. If we are kind we can expect kindness in return but if we are met with vile intentions then we continue to be kind since we are in Christ and HE was LOVE. Shocking at times even to those familiar with Him, but always patient.
4. I will continue to challenge those who use a “counter-attack” approach to defending the Church. Love does not manifest itself through anger, hatred or impatience, whether percieved or real. FACTS CAN BE SHARED IN KINDNESS.

May we all become unified in ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH

 

[elvisman]

Let me add something else:

It seems like for a FEW of you, anytime someone says something you do not like about Catholicism or any part of the Catholic Church, you immediately start railing the likes of `You hate the Catholic Church.’ You do not seem to give a moment’s consideration as to whether your accusations are true or not.

You FEW apparently do not think Catholicism or the Catholic Church is solid enough to take some unfavorable comments and face discussion of the relevant issues. You promptly try to prevent discussion of the issues by immediately smearing whoever does not think what s/he is `supposed to,’ claiming s/he hates the Catholic Church or its people.

I for one think that the Catholic Church is solid enough to take some unfavorable comments and face discussion of the actual issues. I, as a non-Catholic, seem to have a higher regard for the Catholic Church than a few of you.

I know I am one of those you speak of because you can’t seem to discern defending the truth from lashing out irrationally. Ergo, the very same charges that you make against me and others can be said about you. **

**You think you’re being attacked at every turn by my words and those of others because you are put in your place when you attack the Church. You haven’t come here to have charitable dialogue but to assault with extreme prejudice.

I have the highest regard for the Church - and let’s be honest - you don***'t*.**
**I, for one, welcome charitable discussion about disagreements regarding Catholicism. **It’s only when some of you attack Catholic doctrines without having done your homeworks that amazes me. Why would you come to a discussion or debate unprepared? It’s not only unwise - it’s really stupid and shows a complete lack of respect.

---

I also have a hard time with heterdox, would-be “Catholics” who espouse the most ludicrous notions about the Church they claim to be a part of.
Rev. 3:15-16 speaks well of them:
**"I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. **
So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth."

 

[elvisman]

Not all of us non-Catholics and ex-Catholics hate the church. Even though I disagree with most of its teachings, I don’t have a “problem” with the church. I followed my conscience and experience with the divine elsewhere and so I’m not interested in lobbying the church to change any of its positions to suit me. It’s only when the church attempts to force its beliefs on the rest of us or when some members go out of their way to disrepect me that I have a problem.

**I can respect most of that.
It’s only when you say that the Church, “attempts to force its beliefs on the rest of us” that I have a problem.
If you could clarify that - it would help.

 

[Darron_Steele]

I would not “clarify” it, Kenofken:
a) what you said is already clear enough;
b) Elvisman wants you to say something specific that he can attack you for.

 

[tweetymom]

I would not “clarify” it, Kenofken:
a) what you said is already clear enough;
b) Elvisman wants you to say something specific that he can attack you for.

Some people can not do anything but attackm. It is feeding their ego. Best thing to do with unkind people is ignore them.