Why does one hate the Catholic Church?

[elvisman]

The Church was born from, and is sustained by God’s Word.

1Pe 1:23 Being bornagain, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Roman Catholic Church certainly HAS NOT been around “forever” like God’s Word, now has it? So much for your theory of your denomination writing the Bible.

**Ummm . . . the Church existed before the New Testament was written, my ignorant friend. **The New Testament came out of the Catholic Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This cannot be argued:

John 16:12-15
***"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. ***
*But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.
He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. **He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. *
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you."

---

Lastly - Christ’s ONLY Curch is not a denomination.
**Denominations came later during the Protestant Revolt.
They were used to define the various rebellious and spiritually prideful human traditions that were popping up (i.e., Lutheranism, Calvinism, Baptist, Methodist, etc).

 

[elvisman]

A CANCER??? Really Elvis, you should have heard my priest’s homily at weekday Mass today. Father spoke of welcoming all. How it is **un-**Christian not to do so and how we evangelize by example.

And you judge and unwelcome others as a **CANCER??? **

Yes, a cancer.

People who espouse belief in the Catholic Church and openly reject her doctrines as you and some others have are a cancer on the Church. They confuse those who are honestly seeking the truth.

Jesus spoke well of people such as these:
Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you (the Church) listens to me. Whoever rejects yourejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." **

We are to WELCOME all people - not to ACCEPT all their beliefs.

 

[elvisman]

By the looks of your posting, you have no idea what these “keys” actually are. For once; I would like to see a Catholic explain specifically how many keys there are, what they are; etc. etc., and I would like to see accurate Bible references for each.

**How many keys??
These aren’t physical keys, my friend - they are symbolic of the power given by Christ.

**As for “accurate” Bible references, go back and read the post, as I already ****laid it out for you. **
Matt 16:18-19 is a DIRECT reference to Isaiah 22:20-22:

Matt 16:18-19
**And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. **
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Isaiah 22:20-22
**On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; **
**I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. **
I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.
It is no Biblical secret the the Kingdom of Heaven is patterned after the Kingdom of David. This is Bible-101.

 

[CMatt25]

Pope Benedict is a very holy man - he is a gift from God to the world.
I believe that many people who hate the Catholic Church do so because they want to do what they like. They do not wish to follow the precepts of God. They reject history. It makes them uncomfortable - they want to yield to their own desires. If they would just stop in their tracks and take a good look, they would see what beauty is the Church and they would realise that happiness can be found in great measure.

Many people are like sheep - they believe anything they read in the media - they do now have the power of analysis - they can easily be manipulated.

God bless you all
Cinette

My priest says no one is holy, that there is no perfection in this world, let alone “very holy”. I also believe we toss around “hate” a bit too freely when often it is not hate but merely disagreeing with how the CC or history interprets God’s precepts. It is true some sheep might be easily manipulated and believe everything told them. But not only by the media but also by their church leaders. Other sheep test the shepherds by their fruits so as to know them. It is all a matter of faith and belief. God bless us all during this Holy week and beyond.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, a cancer.

People who espouse belief in the Catholic Church and openly reject her doctrines as you and some others have are a cancer on the Church. They confuse those who are honestly seeking the truth.

Jesus spoke well of people such as these:
Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you* (the Church*) listens to me. Whoever rejects yourejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

We are to WELCOME all people - not to ACCEPT all their beliefs.

Ok Elvis have it your way but your language just seems a bit unwelcoming to me.

Christ overturned the moneychanger tables but I didn’t know you could walk on water too. Nevertheless my brother, God bless you during this Holy Week and beyond in showing His love and peace.

 

[elvisman]

Ok Elvis have it your way but your language just seems a bit unwelcoming to me.

Christ overturned the moneychanger tables but I didn’t know you could walk on water too. Nevertheless my brother, God bless you during this Holy Week and beyond in showing His love and peace.

It’s not, "my way" to follow the teachings of Christ. It is THE way.

You want to accept ALL beliefs along with ALL people. That is not ecumenism. Ecumenism is to celebrate our common beliefs so that our separated brothers can come to know the fullness of truth - not so that we can LOSE some of it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your argument could be taken to mean the Holy Spirit no longer comes to anyone today it was simply for the Disciples. There are some out there that do believe this.

You are forgetting this verse-

Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Are you not a disciple of Christ?

I think I have explained it more than once, but once more won’t hurt.

Christ made those promises to the men He chose, appointed and commissioned. I have also used the verse above in my repeated explanations. He promised to be with them until the consummation of the world, knowing these were mortal men who would not be here at the consummation of the world, these promises were to the offices He appointed them too.

Reading scriptures, within scriptures, we know that those men He appointed, appointed others to offices within the Church. Those men understood the fulfillment of scripture required an office be filled with another, if that office was vacated.

While we are all called to share the good news which is within us, we are not disciples in the way the disciples were chosen, appointed and commissioned. There is a clear authority in the Church. Show me in scriptures, where Christ spoke those words to the mulititudes. While you’re at it, show me in scriptures, where Christ addressed the multitudes with the instructions to ‘teach’ or ‘preach’. Everytime I see those commands, He’s speaking to those He chose, appointed and commissioned.

Then along came the Catholic Church around 300 AD. The Catholic Church slowly started closing the gate to the Kingdom of Heaven from all that do not follow their one fallible man until now it is slammed shut.

Ok here’s the danger of believing such a contrived story as that. That Church gave us the scriptures we have today. If we believed the Catholic Church took over, how can we trust the scriptures at all?

You can’t have it both ways. The Catholic Church cannot be trusted, but we can trust the scriptures they copied over and over, and translated into many languages over and over.

So tell me what were the spoken instructions? Do you have proof of what was said?

Yes, there is proof, in scriptures and in FAITH.

Below are scriptures of things Christ ‘instructed’ and promised. Read them in context of who He was speaking too. The passage from Matthew 23 was spoken to everyone, the multitudes and those He chose and appointed authority too. The other passage examples were spoken ONLY to those He chose and appointed authority too.

**Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:
Joh 14:17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you.

Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

Mat 10:20 For it is not you that speak, but the spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.**

John wrote a story that indisputably ONLY happened between Christ and those He chose and appointed authority too. He ended that story with the following verse.

Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Now, if you sat down and read the Gospel only, they are the only ones to tell us what Christ spoke, how long would it take to read? Christ’s ministry was approximately 3 years. Is everything written that He did or spoke? Those He chose and appointed, walked, talked and lived with Him for 3 years.

There is an exception besides the Gospels of things Christ said.

Act 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring you ought to support the weak and to remember the word of the Lord Jesus, how he said: It is a more blessed thing to give, rather than to receive.

St. Luke wrote Acts. He was not an eyewitness to Christ. He wrote what he learned from the oral tradtition.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Everything that convinced the Disciples that Jesus is GOD’s Word incarnate we have.

That statement is not exactly correct, according to scriptures.

Joh 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

Joh 21:24 This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things and hath written these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

 

[scottwesner]

/bWILL THE REAL CATHOLIC PLEASE STAND UP!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I agree there were offices, but they must follow what Paul dictated as the example of who could be a leader and the Old Testament rules of Binding and Loosing must be followed.

Yes and there were instructions on filling offices.

**Act 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Act 6:6 These they set before the apostles: and they praying, imposed hands upon them.

Act 13:3 Then they fasting and praying and imposing their hands upon them, sent them away.

Act 14:23 (14:22) And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.

1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.

2Ti 1:6 For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands.

Tit 1:5 For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee**

What you will not find in scriptures is anyone who desired the office and appointed themselves, or someone who was not appointed themselves, appointing others.

Why does GOD’s Word have to say it must be the final rule? Isn’t it GOD that we must please?

If you are a follower of GOD it will be your final authority. If you are not a follower of GOD then you will follow any tradition that is thrown at you.

Scriptures tell us, the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, where the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known. Accepting this is pleasing God.

God is the final authority with Catholics. Christ is the cornerstone and the Apostles are the foundation. Scriptures are useful. The Church came first and then scriptures came, in that order.

To say that scriptures are the final authority, is adding something to scriptures that is not there, nor was it taught by those He chose and appointed to an authority. That is a tradition that is thrown at you.

OK so you have no idea of how a Sacred Tradition came about. There is no way of testing it’s truth.

Jesus taught the people how to ‘test’ it’s truth.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

How about testing the person - presenting the new tradition that must be followed- what are the fruits of that person does he really have the Holy Spirit?

Have you not heard, ‘judge not, lest you be judged’? Leave to Christ that which is Christ’s. Read all of Matthew 23 and see Christ spoke to the multitudes and those who were the authority. Those in authority will be judged, as we all will, and judged according to their appointment.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not usre the reason for this statement- if Catholics don’t have to follow the Pope why do Christians have to?

All Christians have ‘free will’ given to us by God. He doesn’t force anything upon us. Has anyone told you that Catholics are perfect? We are all sinners.

Who ever said I was the only one with the correct interpretation, all have access to it- Trinitarian Christians have it.

Show me where that is written, according to that which you claim to be the ‘final authority’. When I read scriptures, I see Christ telling people they err when it comes to their interpretation of scriptures. I see Peter saying there are unlearned and unstable, who are making errors as unwise.

So tell me what did Paul set straight?

You tell me what Paul set straight, according to that which you claim to be the ‘final authority’. I’m the one that believes in those ‘traditions’ passed through Apostolic succession.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What are they?

They are the traditions we are told hold fast too.

They were probably illiterate and had not been to Junior High and understand the rules to follow when interpreting what aa author wanted to pass down to his reader.

The people of the Old Testament were probably illiterate and had not been to Junior High? Surely you know the silliness of that argument. Were there ‘Junior Highs’ in the New Testament?

Show me in scriptures where it is written for ANYONE to interpret scriptures for themselves.

{QUOTE]You are throwing things you reject, that Catholics interpret, to avoid the issue, which is where is the scriptures telling us the scriptures are the ‘final authority’? You are using a double standard here. Catholic teachings are not in scriptures to my satisfaction, but my teachins not in scriptures are acceptable?

Yes, they are there, but you prefer to read the scriptures in a different way or to make excuses why it’s not written, or excuses why we no longer have to heed a certain passage. Why did holding fast to traditions, whether written or spoken change, according to you?

Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was conceived is in Scripture - that she remained a virgin or not is not mentioned in Scripture. Is this considered one of your Sacred Traditions?

There is real presence in the Bread and Wine that is scripture- how it happens or the exact form is not in Scripture. Is this considered one of your Sacred Traditions?

I am simply asking for the mention of what the Sacred Traditions are and the transmission chain of how you got them.

Sacred Traditions, that we hold to whether written or spoken, was passed through the Apostolic succession, of those with Apostolic authority, that have the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose, those that we are to observe and do whatsoever they say to us, because we know, through our faith in Christ that He can accomplish all things.

As for Mary ever virgin, you cannot see with the modern eye and your own fleshly desires, how a woman could marry and be bound by vows, especially a married woman whose husband would also have to be bound by her vows. Think with the mind of those, of the times and that culture.

Mary and Joseph were bound by the ‘old law’ prior to Christ’s ministry. Read Numbers 30 and see what is said about women and vows, just to understand the possibilities with this argument.

We know Paul wrote teachings about virgins, as well as celibacy.

**1Co 7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I.

1Co 7:25 Now, concerning virgins, I have no commandment of the Lord: but I give counsel, as having obtained mercy of the Lord, to be faithful.
1Co 7:26 I think therefore that this is good for the present necessity: that it is good for a man so to be.

1Co 7:32 But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord: how he may please God.
1Co 7:33 But he that is with a wife is solicitous for the things of the world: how he may please his wife. And he is divided.
1Co 7:34 And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord: that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world: how she may please her husband.
1Co 7:35 And this I speak for your profit, not to cast a snare upon you, but for that which is decent and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord, without impediment.

2Ti 2:3 Labour as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No man, being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular businesses: that he may please him to whom he hath engaged himself.**

Now, not to change the subject, let me ask you a question. Do you believe that people who believe Mary to remain ever virgin has an impact on their salvation? If so, please explain how?

 

[Nicea325]

I have more faith in my own (God-given) fallible judgment than I do in the judgment of a hierarchy which proved itself incapable of carrying out so basic a Christian duty as protecting innocents.

So your own fallible judgement is correct of practically condemning an entire church? Based on what? A few bad apples and poor decisions? You want the church to protect the innocent,but you have the power to judge it? Nice double standards there

**The notion that a man in such an office has any authority from God to bind me to do anything is patently absurd. **

You seem to be doing the exact thing.

We Catholics are to worship God,NOT men. Your convictions seemed to be wired wrong.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Exodus 18
15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and laws.”

You see here GOD’s Law and decrees - no one elses.

Binding and loosing
“In the life of Israel, they had a court system set up to address the problems and issues that faced the everyday life of an Israelite. The largest and highest court in the land, was of course the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. But the smallest court and the one that truly dealt with the everyday affairs of the people was called a Bet-din , or “house of judgment”. This smallest court was comprised of two or three judges. When these judges met to hear matters, it was believed that the Glory or Shekinah of God rest upon them. It was for this reason that they were regarded as “elohim” or mighty ones. This will throw some light on another misunderstood passage found in John 10:34-35. They were called ‘mighty ones’ or elohim, because when they were in session, with the Shekinah present, it was believed that they spoken for God. Their decisions were the decisions of God. What they forbid (to bind), was what was forbidden by heaven, and what they permitted (to loose), was permitted by heaven. What they bound on earth, had already been bound in heaven, and what they loosed on earth, had already been loosed in heaven.”

What Peter bound on earth, would be bound in heaven. What Peter loosed on earth, would be loosed in heaven.

Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

Matthew 16
19and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.’

Matthew 18
18`Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

It appears that translation is making scriptures fit a theology, as opposed to fitting a theology to scriptures. It is also changing the tense used in the original Greek language, which the passage was written in. The passage does not use the word for ‘having been’, or even ‘been’ alone.

(IGNT+) καιG2532 AND δωσωG1325 [G5692] I WILL GIVE σοιG4671 TO THEE ταςG3588 THE κλειςG2807 KEYS τηςG3588 OF THE βασιλειαςG932 KINGDOM τωνG3588 OF THE ουρανωνG3772 HEAVENS : καιG2532 AND οG3739 εανG1437 WHATEVER δησηςG1210 [G5661] THOU MAYEST BIND επιG1909 ON τηςG3588 THE γηςG1093 EARTH, εσταιG2071 [G5704] SHALL BE δεδεμενονG1210 [G5772] BOUND ενG1722 IN τοιςG3588 THE ουρανοιςG3772 HEAVENS; καιG2532 AND οG3739 εανG1437 WHATEVER λυσηςG3089 [G5661] THOU MAYEST LOOSE επιG1909 ON τηςG3588 THE γηςG1093 EARTH, εσταιG2071 [G5704] SHALL BE λελυμενονG3089 [G5772] LOOSED ενG1722 IN τοιςG3588 THE ουρανοιςG3772 HEAVENS.

G2071
ἔσομαι
esomai
es’-om-ahee
Future tense of G1510; will be: - shall (should) be (have), (shall) come (to pass), X may have, X fall, what would follow, X live long, X sojourn.

I compare scriptures among several translations; Douay-Rheims, 2 English translations of the Aramaic, the Greek interlinear, 2 versions of the King James Versions, New Jerusalem Bible and the Revised Stanard Version. All show a future tense.

What version of the Bible do you depend on?

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by schaick
So tell me what were the spoken instructions? Do you have proof of what was said?

Spoken instructions? Ahhhh…scripture IS oral traditions written down. They are not pitted against each other as non-Catholics have the bad habit of doing.

Apparently you must question St.Paul himself who said it very clearly:

2 Thes 2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

So tell us if St.Paul was incorrect,since you are questioning spoken instructions.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

My priest says no one is holy, that there is no perfection in this world, let alone “very holy”.

Semantics! No one is ‘divinely holy’ but Him. The Apostles, saints, devout Christians are holy, in that they live holy lives, dedicated to Him. ‘Very holy’ describes one who commits the biggest majority of his life to Him, as opposed to ‘secular’ things; things of this world.

 

[CMatt25]

It’s not, "my way" to follow the teachings of Christ. It is THE way.

You want to accept ALL beliefs along with ALL people. That is not** ecumenism. Ecumenism is to celebrate our common beliefs so that our separated brothers can come to know the fullness of truth - not so that we can LOSE some of it.**

Elvis, I accept…

We are disciples if we love one another…

Jn 13:35By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another…

I, Elvis, celebrate our common beliefs and unity in the One most important of all. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The One Whose sacrifice for each of us we join our Christian brothers and sisters throughout the world in special remembrance of this Holy Week and the One Whose resurrection we join with our brothers and sisters, Catholic and non Catholic alike, this Sat and Sun throughout the world in celebrating in thanksgiving and with joyful hope and praise for His promise to us all…

Jn 3:16For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

Have a most blessed Holy Week and a most Blessed and Happy Easter, Elvisman. Peace be with you.

 

[CMatt25]

Semantics! No one is ‘divinely holy’ but Him. The Apostles, saints, devout Christians are holy, in that they live holy lives, dedicated to Him. ‘Very holy’ describes one who commits the biggest majority of his life to Him, as opposed to ‘secular’ things; things of this world.

Prod, Father didn’t actually say divinely. He only said no one is holy. And that we can try to live holy lives but without perfection.

But have a most Blessed Holy Week Prod and Easter. God bless!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prod, Father didn’t actually say divinely. He only said no one is holy. And that we can try to live holy lives but without perfection.

But have a most Blessed Holy Week Prod and Easter. God bless!

It is a descriptive word, of how someone ‘attempts’ to live their life, dedicated to Him, even in the sinful states, which everyone is.

Did you speak to your priest about it specifically?

Do you believe in the one HOLY Catholic and Apostolic Church?

 

[CMatt25]

It is a descriptive word, of how someone ‘attempts’ to live their life, dedicated to Him, even in the sinful states, which everyone is.

Did you speak to your priest about it specifically?

Do you believe in the one HOLY Catholic and Apostolic Church?

No Prod, I actually was listening to a homily at Mass. Of course I believe in the sacredness of Christ’s Universal church founded in Apostolic times by Him. The founder Christ is HOLY afterall and the gates shall not prevail in the end.