Why does our society show no respect for women, from either side?

[SusanneT]

My point on this is that it was often counterbalanced by how easy it was to ruin a woman’s reputation, even if she had been perfectly chaste. There were a lot of very strict rules on upper-class women that she had to be followed in order to be considered a “proper” lady. And women who weren’t considered “ladies” often were not treated with respect.

There were doubtless injustices in the past but surely the assumption that women were chaste was not a bad thing.

 

[DarkLight]

No woman (or man) deserves or “asks for” violence against themselves.

But some of our choices have consequences, and I’ve seen women do stupid things. I’ve been one of the women who did stupid things. I was lucky nothing happened to me. But it could have. Because there are BAD people in the world and they are ready to prey on the weak and stupid, the unaware and the vulnerable.

So, yeah, when a grown woman goes out jogging on a trail by herself in a secluded area at 11 p.m. and gets mugged or assaulted, she does bear some responsibility. Not because she “deserved” it but because those are the places that bad people lurk looking for opportunities. She’s not invincible and she lives in the real world where doing such things is a calculated risk, not in a perfect world with no bad people.

I don’t go out by myself to the mall at night because I have eyes and ears and I watch the news reports documenting the people who have been held up at gunpoint recently. I don’t want to be one of those people. I should be able to go to the mall any time I want, but that isn’t the world we live in.

Woman, man it makes no difference. Alcohol impairs judgment and makes you vulnerable. Clubs, jogging trails, and similar places are hunting grounds. Don’t be prey. Be aware of your surroundings, stay with a group, don’t go off with strangers.

There are bad peoples and they are on the lookout for those who give them opportunity.

I’m talking less about that kind of thing and more about literally being directly told “women shouldn’t complain about harassment because if they wouldn’t dress so provocatively they’d be left alone,” or complaining about a guy saying crude things to you and immediately being questioned on what you were wearing that day. Or being told you shouldn’t have been alone in the room with your boyfriend, who you presumably knew and trusted, because you “should know what men are like.”

 

[Polycarp1]

Respect for all has decreased, including for oneself. That is why communities are lacking, to be replaced by small tribes of a great variety. I have never lost my respect for women. I think the OP paints with a giant, broad brush, and is encouraged by people who think “They’re all like that.”
I’m not. Ed

Your right Ed. Respect for men hasn’t exactly been sky-rocketing either!

 

[ChaosGamma]

But respect is being boiled down to holding open a door and not using profanity in a woman’s presence. It’s nice, but it doesn’t mean jack if women aren’t given the freedom to fulfill their potential.

“Fulfill their potential.” Right. Get out and dig those ditches right alongside the menfolk. Hire a professional to change diapers and give them their bottle, you’ve got to get out and do REAL work in your cubicle.

Surely God erred when He designed the family this way. How could He not have realized that the best system was for both parents to be working outside the home for at least a third of the day while the children are sent away to be raised by the government schools and the media.

Low fertility rates and rampant abortion? We’ll just have the government offer more benefits for having families despite this having not worked anywhere before. Well, actually we need abortion so that women can get out there and fulfil their potential without having to inconvenience themselves. We’ll make the man pay child support, despite the fact that both of them were consenting to a meaningless sexual fling that neither of them wanted to produce a child.

My ranting aside,

there was plenty of sexual immorality to go around.

Which might just be why our ancestors built up such a strict system of rules surrounding sexuality. What’s the quote, “Most people go to Hell for sins of the flesh.” True enough in every age, even the great Age of Christendom.

And given:

abortion, apathy as a result of desensitization

not to mention homosexuality, transgenderism, borderline pornography being aired on network television, divorce rates that would’ve been unimaginable half a century ago, half of all children being born illegitimate, broken families, children never knowing their fathers (many because even mom doesn’t know), all of which has resulted in an ever-expanding welfare state growing up to replace the outworn practice of men and women actually marrying, staying married and raising their own children, maybe, just maybe they were on to something. Was it perfect? Well no, it was built up by human beings, so of course it wasn’t. But like Chesterton’s fence, it was put up for a reason. Maybe it does need torn down but it’s probably a good idea to understand why it was put up before we get the hammers and wrecking balls out.

Or, more simply, as Don Colacho puts it: “Where Christianity disappears, greed, envy, and lust invent a thousand ideologies to justify themselves.”

 

[1ke]

I’m talking less about that kind of thing and more about literally being directly told “women shouldn’t complain about harassment because if they wouldn’t dress so provocatively they’d be left alone,” or complaining about a guy saying crude things to you and immediately being questioned on what you were wearing that day. Or being told you shouldn’t have been alone in the room with your boyfriend, who you presumably knew and trusted, because you “should know what men are like.”

Then I agree with a previous poster about getting different friends. I’ve lived a long time and no one has said those sorts of things to me.

 

[edwest2]

But respect is being boiled down to holding open a door and not using profanity in a woman’s presence. It’s nice, but it doesn’t mean jack if women aren’t given the freedom to fulfill their potential.

"given the freedom to fulfill their potential’? Could you provide a few recent examples of where that freedom is being denied?

Ed

 

[Tomdstone]

I think when you get down to it these two types of men, the lewd ones with an entitlement complex and the religious ones who judge a woman on what she wears, are exactly the same.

I disagree. IMHO, a religious man who prefers a woman who dresses modestly and conservatively is not exactly the same as a lewd man.

 

[edwest2]

And some of us disagree that it was better, at least that it was better for everyone in that particular respect. Honestly I find the second part of what I said more distressing than the first part - and I don’t think the attitude that women are “at fault” for the behavior of men is a modern reaction or a result of the sexual revolution.

It is a byproduct of the Sexual Revolution. I was there. No strings attached sex was being heavily promoted.

Ed

 

[Bill_Martin]

I disagree. IMHO, a religious man who prefers a woman who dresses modestly and conservatively is not exactly the same as a lewd man.

That is not the kind of man she is talking about. Preferring modesty and negatively judging women who don’t fit his standards are not at all the same thing, or related. One is an admiration of a virtue, the other is an admiration of oneself and the self-righteous pleasure brought by raining down judgement on people deemed lesser.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think when you get down to it these two types of men, the lewd ones with an entitlement complex and the religious ones who judge a woman on what she wears, are exactly the same.

---

Agree.

 

[Tomdstone]

… a lot of men just have no respect for women…

I believe that to be an overgeneralization. In the last presidential election, for example, many men supported and voted for Hillary to be president of the US. So obviously they had some respect for her and for her views. Others did not and many people, both men and women, did not respect her pro-abortion views. How much respect do you think is owed to women who believe it is right to murder their child in the womb? Women need to be respected, of course, but there are those, such as Hillary, who demand that we change our beliefs against abortion.

 

[Tomdstone]

I think when you get down to it these two types of men, the lewd ones with an entitlement complex and the religious ones who judge a woman on what she wears, are exactly the same.

That is not the kind of man she is talking about. Preferring modesty and negatively judging women who don’t fit his standards are not at all the same thing, or related. One is an admiration of a virtue, the other is an admiration of oneself and the self-righteous pleasure brought by raining down judgement on people deemed lesser.

I don’t quite understand the vicious attack and smear against religious men. It is a non-sequitur because if a man is truly religious, he will not be going around judging women, but he will be following the words of Jesus: Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.” A religious man reads and accepts the holy word of God. Sorry, but I see nothing wrong with a religious man who prefers a woman who dresses modestly and conservatively. And I do not equate such a person with a lewd man.

 

[edwest2]

No woman (or man) deserves or “asks for” violence against themselves.

But some of our choices have consequences, and I’ve seen women do stupid things. I’ve been one of the women who did stupid things. I was lucky nothing happened to me. But it could have. Because there are BAD people in the world and they are ready to prey on the weak and stupid, the unaware and the vulnerable.

So, yeah, when a grown woman goes out jogging on a trail by herself in a secluded area at 11 p.m. and gets mugged or assaulted, she does bear some responsibility. Not because she “deserved” it but because those are the places that bad people lurk looking for opportunities. She’s not invincible and she lives in the real world where doing such things is a calculated risk, not in a perfect world with no bad people.

I don’t go out by myself to the mall at night because I have eyes and ears and I watch the news reports documenting the people who have been held up at gunpoint recently. I don’t want to be one of those people. I should be able to go to the mall any time I want, but that isn’t the world we live in.

Woman, man it makes no difference. Alcohol impairs judgment and makes you vulnerable. Clubs, jogging trails, and similar places are hunting grounds. Don’t be prey. Be aware of your surroundings, stay with a group, don’t go off with strangers.

There are bad people and they are on the lookout for those who give them opportunity. And they aren’t always strangers.

Flame away, but this needs to be said. We don’t do girls any favors with the feminist line that it’s only sexist misogynists who keep them down and unable walk down the street naked. There are 9 billion people on this planet, all fallen, and millions are mentally ill, under the influence of drugs, and millions more are just plain BAD. The odds are against those of us who don’t think like a criminal.

I think “think like a criminal” is going a bit far. Anyone, man or woman, knows, or should know, that violence has increased and that predators have increased. No one should go out late at night alone, especially in an area where few or no people are around. Some of these people need money for dope, to buy food or are bored and unstable. Some of them literally have nothing to do all day. Some join gangs.

Again, trust is earned. It’s not a given anymore. It once was that neighbors were neighbors. No, it wasn’t perfect but a heck of a lot better than today. Today, people hardly look at each other, neighbors don’t know their neighbors. But I know where to go. There are places where life is exactly the way it was when I was growing up. No, people aren’t perfect. Never were. But the point is: living as if you live on Cell Block C is not living.

I’ve been carjacked with a gun held to my head. I get that. But that didn’t stop me from learning to be more careful. Be smart, take reasonable precautions and here’s a radical idea: make friends that are on the same page as you. Earn trust, evaluate, enjoy each others company. That used to be the case, but today - according to some angry people - it never was. That is so wrong.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

Your right Ed. Respect for men hasn’t exactly been sky-rocketing either!

Of course not. If you watch enough media, men are just stupid people while the women are more capable and intelligent, or men are just pigs, and sex is all they think about. And in this broken, anything goes society, some think like dumb animals and perverts. And the only reason to have men around is as sperm donors. Otherwise, they’re pretty much worthless.

Women have to “break the chains of their oppression” — that’s us, guys — and go out and overthrow the patriarchy – that’s us, guys. And once women control everything, utopia…

Ed

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t quite understand the vicious attack and smear against religious men. It is a non-sequitur because if a man is truly religious, he will not be going around judging women, but he will be following the words of Jesus: Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.” A religious man reads and accepts the holy word of God. Sorry, but I see nothing wrong with a religious man who prefers a woman who dresses modestly and conservatively. And I do not equate such a person with a lewd man.

You’ve got a little bit of a No True Scotsman going there.

 

[edwest2]

If the Church has no credibility, someone else will teach women how to behave:

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

And apparently, young women no longer have parents anymore. In the past, “I’m not letting you go out dressed like that. Go and change into something decent.” That’s called teaching self-respect.

Recently, an attractive relative of mine showed up in an outfit that showed a little too much. I casually offered the following: “I think you’re sending the wrong message with your clothes.” I wasn’t harsh about it. The angry reply? “All my friends dress like this!” Oooooo Kay. Your friends made you do it.

Ed

 

[Tomdstone]

You’ve got a little bit of a No True Scotsman going there.

Interesting comment and analogy. Yes, I was thinking of a religious man as a true religious man who follows the words of Jesus.

 

[Tomdstone]

I casually offered the following: “I think you’re sending the wrong message with your clothes.”

Men have only a certain amount of time to make friends, to discuss and talk and to date a woman. The single man is going to have to decide which among his friends he is going to ask for a date. A certain amount of judgement is going to go into this. The woman of course, can always exercise her judgement and refuse to go out with him. I don;t see anything wrong with a man who wants to go out with a woman who dresses conservatively and modestly and who speaks decently refraining from the common foul and gutter language often heard around us. I would not go along with equating such a decent and honorable man with a lewd man.

 

[DarkLight]

Then I agree with a previous poster about getting different friends. I’ve lived a long time and no one has said those sorts of things to me.

Really? When I was growing up this was how pretty much everyone around me spoke and thought. It was just what Christians believed. When I was assaulted by my boyfriend in college, it was the most common attitude - common with professors as well as students. In my experience it’s a quite common attitude among conservative Christian circles.

 

[edwest2]

Men have only a certain amount of time to make friends, to discuss and talk and to date a woman. The single man is going to have to decide which among his friends he is going to ask for a date. A certain amount of judgement is going to go into this. The woman of course, can always exercise her judgement and refuse to go out with him. I don;t see anything wrong with a man who wants to go out with a woman who dresses conservatively and modestly and who speaks decently refraining from the common foul and gutter language often heard around us. I would not go along with equating such a decent and honorable man with a lewd man.

I took all the time I needed with my last girlfriend. She was raised Catholic in the same way I was. We didn’t share all the same interests, but she was intelligent and acted like a real lady. When I was with her, it was if something in my head was activated. I knew all the right things to say, what to do, etc. I brought her flowers once and she was almost trembling. She carried herself like a woman. She walked like she had a book on her head. She was poised and confident. She and I were like peas in a pod. It got to the point where we could just look at each other to convey our thoughts. Yes, she had her flaws, but she was cultured and avoided certain things out of her love for God.

And it was all natural - second nature to her. She never put on airs. I thought for a short time that she might not like something about me but I could also tell she wanted my company. We even played chess one evening.

For some women, she was their worst nightmare. A lady. A real lady. I found someone where I could be the gentleman I was raised to be. I thank God for her.

Ed