Why does our society show no respect for women, from either side?

[pianistclare]

That’s what every older generation says of their successors. I’m relatively young (21), and I think that the majority of my generation - like that of my parents and grandparents - are decent people. There are distasteful cultural attitudes present in each (my mom make a cringe-worthy racial remark every now and again), but to characterize an entire group of people as hedonistic, uncouth, and uncaring toward others is wrong. Racism was a prevailing cultural attitude in my grandparents generation, but that in no way indicates that every member of that generation was a racist - far from it.

I don’t think I said anything about this generation being racist.
In fact, I don’t know why you made this post quoting me at all.

I’m out.
This thread is full of stereotypes. I was talking about politically correct thinking among young people.

"It’s always been like that, " is not a compelling argument.
People do change. Sometimes for the worse, if we let the media and the secular worlkd drive our thoughts.

 

[Lea101]

here’s my opinion:

Society will always have some sort of prejudice. Even if it’s covert.

Women will always be (at least slightly) more disrespected than men, especially in a society where masculine stereotypes/values/qualities/whatever you want to call it are more valued than women (You can pretend to be shocked at this, but hey, women are trying to prevent being moms because of 'equal rights, guys are being made fun of for being sissys). Sexism has many faces, it’s kind of silly to say that an era is better or not. But then again, I’m one of those people that think any kind of prejudice should never be tolerated/ignored.

I don’t come from the “good old days” (that phrase makes me laugh, but whatever), but I have, like some of us here, read books and adverts from that time…and it genuinely triggered the man-hating side of me, lol. Sexism has been around forever, just in different forms.

Back to my point.

Secular: Obviously these men have no respect for women. First of all, they are convinced that they have no self control and that they are oh-so-visual creatures. And the masculinity=beer and looking at breasts. And then you have these oh-so-lovely women who thinks they are empowered by choosing to show their bodies.

I tend to use this (not perfect/half baked) analogy: A stepmother has this thing for a really clean kitchen. She forces her stepdaughter to scrub and clean until she is pleased. I don’t know, she really likes clean stuff. Poor girl is oppressed. And is sick of it. Then poor girl says, “hey, I don’t want her to use me to have her kitchen cleaned! I don’t want to be oppressed anymore. Here’s what I’ll do! I will clean the kitchen myself without her asking me to!” …Seriously, do you think the stepmom cares if she is forced or not? Stepmom still gets her clean kitchen. She may be annoyed because she didn’t get the pleasure of forcing stepdaughter to clean, but she gets her clean kitchen. Same with men and women’s immodesty. It gives the illusion that there is empowerment, but nope, they are still being oppressed. Men still thinks women are theirs to toy around with.

On the religious side (not Christian because I see this in other religions): Women are told to submit to their husbands. You have this really weird scripture verses that just sound plain sexist. Sure, there are people that bend over backwards to make it sound palatable.** But people are always going to interpret their scriptures and use it however they want. Not to mention that there are really stupid people who take everything literally to the point of killing infidels**. Modesty is usually enforced on women too with no regards to male modesty/women-gasp-lusting after men, because virginity is usually valued and it makes men (and women) uncomfortable to talk about it. I, too, get uncomfortable when I hear people talking about women and modesty to the point where I am in deep distress. Sometimes I feel that the whole “women are the most beautiful blah blah” does more harm than good. But that’s my own issues. lol.

Also, defensive attribution is a thing in both secular and religious circles (victim blaming). Just a quick copy-and-paste: *Defensive Attribution is a mental mechanism used to avoid the worry associated with the belief that one will be a victim or cause of something negative. This commonly occurs when encountering a person who has experienced a mishap, such as a car accident or being attacked. A person will place more responsibility on a victim or a harm doer depending on the severity of the incident and how similar the victim and observer are. The more serious a situation is, the more responsibility is placed on the victim or the harm doer as a way of reducing emotional distress and worry of thinking that it could happen to you. In essence, this helps the person feel less worried that the same bad thing will happen to them. *

Read more: alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term=Defensive%20Attribution#ixzz4TIDbWBIR

So I don’t blame this strictly on christians. We are guilty of this too, just maybe not in cases regarding rape.

If you are wondering WHY religious men and women tend to place blame on the woman when it comes to rape/assault/whatever, it’s that+the notion that men are visual and totally not capable of keeping it in their pants. Ironic because that’s sexist towards men. Because of that, they think it is our fault. I remember my dad’s friend coming into my room and forcing a kiss, and dad kind of scolded me because I didn’t lock my door.

And yes, Not All Men Like That™. But there’s enough of them for it to be a problem, unfortunately. Speak up about it and be a strong woman to annoy them and then live your life, hopefully you will come across amazing men (they exist). If you do, send some my way

Ahh the curse of being a woman…as if periods aren’t bad enough.

 

[1ke]

Really? When I was growing up this was how pretty much everyone around me spoke and thought. It was just what Christians believed. When I was assaulted by my boyfriend in college, it was the most common attitude - common with professors as well as students. In my experience it’s a quite common attitude among conservative Christian circles.

yes., really.

When the boyfriend of one of the girls on our dorm floor was physical and sexually violent with her, our response involved police.

 

[AdamP88]

It comes from the same place, the idea that it’s the woman’s responsibility to manage the mans expectations, if you dress like a slut you’d better act like one and if you don’t well what did you expect.

I’d also agree that a lot of olden day respect was very conditional on how deserving the woman seemed rather than respect because of her human dignity.

I don’t think it comes from the same place at all. Unless we’re going to throw all the solid catholic teaching about modesty out the window. Let’s face it, how you dress is a reflection of the interior. A man who cleans up and dresses smart to work every day has probably got a lot more self respect than someone who gets up, sprays on some deodorant and throws on a track-suit from the dirty clothes basket. The same is true for a woman. The clothes we wear send a message to the people around us. No, I’m not saying that a girl who wears a miniskirt and bikini top to the club deserves to be mistreated. But the men who see her are obviously going to think that if she doesn’t care about modesty then maybe she’ll be up for a makeout session or maybe more.
The reason that truly religious and holy men go for modest women is because they have much more chance of being similar to them in matters of morality.

 

[LightBound]

You’re 21. You have plenty of time to read historical documents revealing that this is a total lie and then get back to us all.

Any serious historical research will reveal that your statement is fallacious and misleading, at best.

A total lie? No, dear, it’s not. I would like to clarify some things. In ages past (think the 1930’s -1960’s) most young women **were **encouraged to marry right out of high school, unless they chose to be secretaries, hairstylists, or salesclerks. Those that had higher aspirations were encouraged to be nurses (3 year diploma program at a hospital) or if they really wanted to go to college, it was to be a teacher. Of course, there were exceptions to that…most often the upper class young women would head off to a private college or university to obtain a degree in something elegant or genteel, as that made them more attractive to finding the “right kind of husband”, such as a young man who had his sights set on becoming a senator or similar. You will also find very bright and headstrong young women who went ahead with an education in a field that had long been male-dominated, such as medicine or law. These are the women who were the lawyers and doctors in the 50’s and 60’s. Most will tell you they had a very rough uphill battle dealing with sexism in the classrooms of grad school. Even those women who are getting close to retirement as doctors, scientists, attorneys, and engineers today will tell you they had an uphill battle, even when in grad school in the 1970’s. Serious historical research will give proof of this, as will asking a woman who lived it.

 

[DarkLight]

I don’t think it comes from the same place at all. Unless we’re going to throw all the solid catholic teaching about modesty out the window. Let’s face it, how you dress is a reflection of the interior. A man who cleans up and dresses smart to work every day has probably got a lot more self respect than someone who gets up, sprays on some deodorant and throws on a track-suit from the dirty clothes basket. The same is true for a woman. The clothes we wear send a message to the people around us. No, I’m not saying that a girl who wears a miniskirt and bikini top to the club deserves to be mistreated. But the men who see her are obviously going to think that if she doesn’t care about modesty then maybe she’ll be up for a makeout session or maybe more.
The reason that truly religious and holy men go for modest women is because they have much more chance of being similar to them in matters of morality.

Unfortunately, in my experience, it doesn’t work the other way around. A lot of men will approach a perfectly modestly dressed woman in a lewd manner. And I’ll be honest, most of the women I see held up as “modest” in Christian circles don’t look like me - I’m a curvy girl and nothing short of a muumuu is going to hide that fact. I don’t really know what’s going through their heads, but a lot of guys will take advantage of anyone who looks to be young, female, and with a decent figure for lewd advances.

That’s my frustration with a lot of Christian circles. Sure I dress modestly - but a lot of people don’t get that it doesn’t do much in terms of stopping lewd behavior. I have a lot of mixed feelings about modesty - the way I learned modesty felt very objectifying. It felt like your body was bad and you should be ashamed of it. It even got to the point for me where I was trying to starve myself so I would have smaller breasts and thus not be as tempting to men.

 

[mommy_k]

If you treat, behave and dress yourself with feminine dignity, men will treat you with it as well. That covers both sides, don’t you think?

There is alot more to gaining respect then the way one dresses, but since most people take the visual cues in first, thats the starting point.

Also, if one is dressed approriately, and a man talks to them because they have a pretty face that’s not lewd or is it? I don’t think it is, as we all enjoy beauty… That’s why I would recommend to just be responsible for your own dignity in the manner above.

To think men are just lustful creatures is disrespecting men in general. I am blessed to have very respectful men in my life, from my dad, to my dh, and my sons, so this is kind of flawed thinking that men are all lewd even if dressed approriately feminine and modest.

 

[DarkLight]

If you treat, behave and dress yourself with feminine dignity, men will treat you with it as well. That covers both sides, don’t you think?

There is alot more to gaining respect then the way one dresses, but since most people take the visual cues in first, thats the starting point.

Also, if one is dressed approriately, and a man talks to them because they have a pretty face that’s not lewd or is it? I don’t think it is, as we all enjoy beauty… That’s why I would recommend to just be responsible for your own dignity in the manner above.

Trust me. I’ve been followed by a man masturbating while in my church clothes. I’ve been approached about “having a good time” while in a long skirt and blouse that I wore to work in a Catholic school. I’ve had countless approaches that were little more than “hey hot stuff, what’s your number.” I’ve had men shout what they’d like to do with my body out car windows. And I do dress modestly, there’s just a lot of men for whom that doesn’t matter - I’m young, female, and alone in public, that’s all they need. Heck, I’ve had lewd approaches where I was completely covered in winter gear!

 

[pensmama87]

If you treat, behave and dress yourself with feminine dignity, men will treat you with it as well. That covers both sides, don’t you think?

There is alot more to gaining respect then the way one dresses, but since most people take the visual cues in first, thats the starting point.

Also, if one is dressed approriately, and a man talks to them because they have a pretty face that’s not lewd or is it? I don’t think it is, as we all enjoy beauty… That’s why I would recommend to just be responsible for your own dignity in the manner above.

To think men are just lustful creatures is disrespecting men in general. I am blessed to have very respectful men in my life, from my dad, to my dh, and my sons, so this is kind of flawed thinking that men are all lewd even if dressed approriately feminine and modest.

I think part of it is that DL grew up in an environment that is not typical, and that unfortunately she may have learned social cues and actions as part of that environment that either attract or don’t sufficiently repel louts out in the “real world.”

 

[pensmama87]

Trust me. I’ve been followed by a man masturbating while in my church clothes. I’ve been approached about “having a good time” while in a long skirt and blouse that I wore to work in a Catholic school. I’ve had countless approaches that were little more than “hey hot stuff, what’s your number.” I’ve had men shout what they’d like to do with my body out car windows. And I do dress modestly, there’s just a lot of men for whom that doesn’t matter - I’m young, female, and alone in public, that’s all they need. Heck, I’ve had lewd approaches where I was completely covered in winter gear!

This is not typical of men in most places. I think this is an environmental thing.

 

[mommy_k]

Trust me. I’ve been followed by a man masturbating while in my church clothes. I’ve been approached about “having a good time” while in a long skirt and blouse that I wore to work in a Catholic school. I’ve had countless approaches that were little more than “hey hot stuff, what’s your number.” I’ve had men shout what they’d like to do with my body out car windows. And I do dress modestly, there’s just a lot of men for whom that doesn’t matter - I’m young, female, and alone in public, that’s all they need. Heck, I’ve had lewd approaches where I was completely covered in winter gear!

I think it’s time to move somewhere else

 

[LightBound]

**If you treat, behave and dress yourself with feminine dignity, men will treat you with it as well. **That covers both sides, don’t you think?

There is alot more to gaining respect then the way one dresses, but since most people take the visual cues in first, thats the starting point.

Also, if one is dressed approriately, and a man talks to them because they have a pretty face that’s not lewd or is it? I don’t think it is, as we all enjoy beauty… That’s why I would recommend to just be responsible for your own dignity in the manner above.

To think men are just lustful creatures is disrespecting men in general. I am blessed to have very respectful men in my life, from my dad, to my dh, and my sons, so this is kind of flawed thinking that men are all lewd even if dressed approriately feminine and modest.

Men that are true gentlemen will treat a woman with dignity regardless of how she is dressed or presents herself. Men that are jerks will treat a woman like a sex object regardless if she’s in a modest dress or a pair of cheeky shorts. You are blessed that your father is a gentleman, you married a gentleman, and you and your husband have taught your sons to be gentlemen. Unfortunately, not all men are like that and it sounds like the OP is having a hard time encountering true, Christian gentlemen.

 

[EasterJoy]

My sense is that women rejected traditional signs of respect from men (such as opening doors for them and not presuming to start a conversation with a woman without an introduction) as either patronizing or too confining, and universally-agreed-upon alternative expectations have not arisen to take their place. That leaves those guys who have always done as much as the social confines let them do have taken up with the mistaken (and self-serving) notion that women are not due any respect, because women want to “take care of themselves.” Mind you–these are not human beings who show anyone a great deal of “respect,” excepting when there will be very unpleasant consequences dished out when they don’t (and sometimes not even then). Gone also are the days when we women were usually accompanied by men in our social circle who would have felt duty-bound to dish out some “consequences” if we weren’t shown the respect the men in our life felt was our due (out of respect for our men, if nothing else).

In other words, we no longer have standard rules of respect for women and no enforcement system for those who won’t comply. As for passing the buck and blaming victims of outright sexual harassment and sexual assault, that is as old as humankind, alas.

Having said that, anyone, male or female, who has been followed by a man masturbating and takes that as a sign of the times ought to see that this is a sign of rampant untreated mental illness with sexual manifestations. People with a normally-functioning compliment of neurological equipment do not masturbate in public, nor do they want to. It is not a “temptation” that they have to fight off in order to conform to social expectations. As for yelling lewd things at strange women, that is also a sign of someone with substandard social self-control, even in the secular world. That is someone living in a world of social anarchy. Men with self-respect do not behave like that, and only immature ones or impaired one have to be taught to avoid that kind of behavior.

 

[edwest2]

I was talking about good old days, where a woman couldn’t be more than a secretary but it was okay because men tipped their hats to her in the street.

Here’s a comparison with the good old days.

money.cnn.com/2013/01/31/news/economy/secretary-women-jobs/

Ed

 

[Meagan34]

I was talking about good old days, where a woman couldn’t be more than a secretary but it was okay because men tipped their hats to her in the street.

Marital Rape was considered non-existent and women couldn’t apply for a credit card. I personally laugh when people refer it to as “the good old days”. Perhaps if you were of a certain race and sex it was “good”. I love the fact that I can choose to be a stay at home mom while my daughter is free to choose between attending law school or becoming a secretary. I couldn’t be more thrilled she chose law school.

 

[AdamP88]

Unfortunately, in my experience, it doesn’t work the other way around. ** A lot of men will approach a perfectly modestly dressed woman in a lewd manner. **And I’ll be honest, most of the women I see held up as “modest” in Christian circles don’t look like me - I’m a curvy girl and nothing short of a muumuu is going to hide that fact. I don’t really know what’s going through their heads, but a lot of guys will take advantage of anyone who looks to be young, female, and with a decent figure for lewd advances.

That’s my frustration with a lot of Christian circles. Sure I dress modestly - but a lot of people don’t get that it doesn’t do much in terms of stopping lewd behavior. I have a lot of mixed feelings about modesty - the way I learned modesty felt very objectifying. It felt like your body was bad and you should be ashamed of it. It even got to the point for me where I was trying to starve myself so I would have smaller breasts and thus not be as tempting to men.

1 - Men who would approach women in a lewd manner are a) not acting in accordance with christian morals and b) somewhat creepy anyway. All circles have their creeps.
2 - Obviously men who act in this way should be told that it’s unacceptable behaviour for a Christian. But there’s no point saying that modesty is not a thing that should be valued.
3 - If modesty was taught in a way that was objectifying and suggested that your body is bad or shameful, then that is wrong. Especially from a Catholic perspective. I would certainly not want my future kids to think that the Church holds this view.

 

[phil19034]

It comes from the same place, the idea that it’s the woman’s responsibility to manage the mans expectations, if you dress like a slut you’d better act like one and if you don’t well what did you expect.

I’d also agree that a lot of olden day respect was very conditional on how deserving the woman seemed rather than respect because of her human dignity.

This is silly. It’s not one directional but goes both ways.

For example, if a man dresses like a slob, he’s going to be treated like a slob. Successful business men live by the rule that “you dress to impress.”

I know men who are in business casual jobs, but still wear a tie because they believe that they have received bigger raises simply because they wear a tie.

Point is, men tend to profile. Not just women, but other men too. Women do it too, but perhaps in different ways. If a man is dressed like a millionaire and turns out to be a broke construction worker, that’s not going to go over well with the woman (anyone remember the “reality show” Average Joe?

To me, this tread has a lot of emotional posts and accusations against men. Instead, we really need to look at human nature via the prism of reality vs. the ideal.

For example: ideally no one would just a book by it’s cover or profile another person based on their dress. However, in reality, everyone does it to some degree (even the people who say they don’t).

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
For example: ideally no one would just a book by it’s cover or profile another person based on their dress. However, in reality, everyone does it to some degree (even the people who say they don’t).

That’s why con men/women are successful - they appear to be what they claim to be…what you expect to see.

However, on the other end there are some generic truths about gut instinct and trusting one’s judgment in initial contacts with folks. Initially-- you don’t really have anything to go on other than appearance.

 

[EasterJoy]

If you treat, behave and dress yourself with feminine dignity, men will treat you with it as well. That covers both sides, don’t you think?

There is alot more to gaining respect then the way one dresses, but since most people take the visual cues in first, thats the starting point.

Also, if one is dressed approriately, and a man talks to them because they have a pretty face that’s not lewd or is it? I don’t think it is, as we all enjoy beauty… That’s why I would recommend to just be responsible for your own dignity in the manner above.

To think men are just lustful creatures is disrespecting men in general. I am blessed to have very respectful men in my life, from my dad, to my dh, and my sons, so this is kind of flawed thinking that men are all lewd even if dressed approriately feminine and modest.

You treat yourself with respect because you are a temple of the Holy Spirit and a child of God and you have the same duty to treat yourself with respect as anyone else, with more direct responsibility because some of the respect you are due can only come from you. No one else is going to choose your clothes. No one else can guard what comes out of your mouth or what thoughts you choose to think, where you go, how you get there and what you allow yourself to do when you arrive.

We ought to treat others with respect for the same reasons and without regard to whether they treat themselves respect, because it is our duty to recognize those who meant enough to God for God to have suffered and died for their eternal redemption. No one can supply themselves with reasons they deserve respect that can compete with that one: that is, the reason that stirred the Good Samaritan to compassion for a total stranger. That is why the rich and the self-controlled really do not deserve more respect than anyone else, even though some of us do of course deserve positions of trust that others among us do not. (By position of trust, I mean inclusion in intimate friendships, responsibility over property or over social or spiritual situations that don’t belong to them and are not theirs to handle however they please, and so on. No one, for instance, deserves to be married or even to be included in the circle of trust that is the Church as a sign of respect. One must be worthy of that trust, and that position of trust can be lost.)

It is unfortunate that the OP has had so many bad interactions with men she does not know. That is not typical, even in the secular world. She’s even described experiences that indicate the fellow in question has a serious mental illness.

 

[phil19034]

Unfortunately, in my experience, it doesn’t work the other way around. A lot of men will approach a perfectly modestly dressed woman in a lewd manner. And I’ll be honest, most of the women I see held up as “modest” in Christian circles don’t look like me - I’m a curvy girl and nothing short of a muumuu is going to hide that fact. I don’t really know what’s going through their heads, but a lot of guys will take advantage of anyone who looks to be young, female, and with a decent figure for lewd advances.

That’s my frustration with a lot of Christian circles. Sure I dress modestly - but a lot of people don’t get that it doesn’t do much in terms of stopping lewd behavior. I have a lot of mixed feelings about modesty - the way I learned modesty felt very objectifying. It felt like your body was bad and you should be ashamed of it. It even got to the point for me where I was trying to starve myself so I would have smaller breasts and thus not be as tempting to men.

I wish you would stop saying things like “Christian circles,” etc. Just because someone attends a Christian church doesn’t mean they have committed to live a Christian life. Whether you mean it or not, you are labeling all Christians as hypocrites.

In regards to paragraph #1 - this problem in society has gotten worse due to pornography. Today, porn is very easy to get a hold of. Before the internet, you had to “work” to get porn. I.e. go to a porn shop, a strip club, subscribe to porno mag, etc. However, today, you have to “work” to keep porn free. I.e. it’s free via a quick Google search, they now have “soft porn” on HBO, Starz, Cinemax & Showtime (and a lot of that is pretty X rated). Pornographic movies (even soft porn) have a extremely damaging effect on boys and young men. Today, lots of boys are confusing what they see in these porno graphic fanitzes as real life. I.e. - seducing the chaste librarian, teacher, or Catholic school girl.

Porn is arguably the number 1 issue damaging our society & destroying families today.

In regards to paragraph #2 - It sounds to me that you were never taught modesty/chastity correctly. I highly recommend books, videos and/or audios from people like Jason Evert, Crystalina Evert, Sarah Swafford, Matt Fradd, Christopher West, Chris Stefanick, Lisa Cotter, Fr. Michael Schmitz, Leah Darrow, etc.

These are just a few of the people I would recommend.

Leah Darrow’s cd talk “Made for Greatness: Runway Model Turns to Christ” is a great place to start.

Here are a few others:

“Emotional Virtue” by Sarah Swafford

“Love or Lust?” by Crystalina & Jason Evert

[

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