Why does our society show no respect for women, from either side?

[phil19034]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey. What is being in the workforce supposed to show me?

I didn’t get my first smartphone till a week and a half ago, yet I’ve always been able to relate fine with people who had it attached at the hip. I was also homeschooled, grew up in a conservative household, worked in several paying jobs and volunteered extensively throughout high school. Basically, I’ve lived most of my life in a bubble separate from that of the middle-American teen/young adult, and I still think the vices some of the CAFers are ascribing to my generation are unfounded. People who lived though the Civil War probably thought their grandkids were bums for listening to the radio and going out dancing. It’s not that the grandkids were morally inferior; just that the grandparents felt out of place and didn’t want/know how to adapt to the changing culture.

Wasn’t talking about smartphones. I was referring to cell phones in general, even the cheap ones (i.e. text messaging and Instant Messaging).

Father Michael Schmitz does a great job discussing this in a far better way that I ever could. I recommend his CD “Living Life by Design, Not Default”

Perhaps, the most disturbing metric about the millennials which is different from every generation that precedes them is their lack of trust in people. I blame the Baby Boomers and Generation X (my generation) for creating a society that has hurt your generation. NOTE: understand, there are many positives of the Millennial generation. However, their lack of trust (as a generational group, not individuals) is very damaging. Also, for some reason (most likely their lack of trust) many, not all, do not assimilate well into the work culture of the companies that hire them.

Anyway, I don’t want to sidebar this thread any further.

God Bless

 

[phil19034]

Trust me. I’ve been followed by a man masturbating while in my church clothes. I’ve been approached about “having a good time” while in a long skirt and blouse that I wore to work in a Catholic school. I’ve had countless approaches that were little more than “hey hot stuff, what’s your number.” I’ve had men shout what they’d like to do with my body out car windows. And I do dress modestly, there’s just a lot of men for whom that doesn’t matter - I’m young, female, and alone in public, that’s all they need. Heck, I’ve had lewd approaches where I was completely covered in winter gear!

This is a reflection of how BAD society has become due to the prevalence of porn. Far too many young boys are learning how to date, etc from watching “soft porn” videos on HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, Starz, etc. Not to mention all other other unchaste cable and network shows where the “bad boy” is glorified, and the unchaste woman is presented as the average girl/woman.

 

[DarkLight]

I wish you would stop saying things like “Christian circles,” etc. Just because someone attends a Christian church doesn’t mean they have committed to live a Christian life. Whether you mean it or not, you are labeling all Christians as hypocrites.

I never said all Christians believed this way. I did say that my experiences have made me wary of talking about negative behavior that I have experienced from men, because I have found that it is a very common reaction to that to criticize the woman’s behavior or dress. It’s not very heartening to talk about living with PTSD as a result of sexual abuse, only to find that it means your conduct becomes up for scrutiny. I would very much like the same freedom to talk in church that a cancer patient or diabetic might find, and I am saddened that both because of the nature of mental illness and because of the dynamics around gender that is often not the case.

It’s not labeling all Christians as hypocrites to say that in one’s experience certain forms of hypocrisy are depressingly common.

 

[Tomdstone]

My sense is that women rejected traditional signs of respect from men (such as opening doors for them and not presuming to start a conversation with a woman without an introduction) …

Good observation. I have noticed that some American women will start a conversation with a man without any introduction.

 

[EasterJoy]

Good observation. I have noticed that some American women will start a conversation with a man without any introduction.

The whole concept of needing an introduction prior to initiating a social contact has essentially disappeared from American social mores (such as they are). I suppose some pretense of an acceptance of a bid for social contact is needed to reject a social advance coming from someone you’ve been introduced to, whereas you can ignore the bid for social contact from a total stranger without being rude, but the social introduction is certainly not the necessary prelude that it once was.

There are some places where you will get as much unsolicited offers of help in hardware stores from total strangers as you will get from staff members who actually work there.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is a reflection of how BAD society has become due to the prevalence of porn. Far too many young boys are learning how to date, etc from watching “soft porn” videos on HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, Starz, etc. Not to mention all other other unchaste cable and network shows where the “bad boy” is glorified, and the unchaste woman is presented as the average girl/woman.

These guys show a lot more problems than exposure to porn. They don’t just lack social skills, but have social habits practically guaranteed to insult the targets of their jibes. Is it possible that any of them actually gains positive attention that way? I think not.

 

[goout]

Oddly enough, the so called “sexual liberation” of women has led to further enslavement and objectification.

 

[phil19034]

I never said all Christians believed this way. I did say that my experiences have made me wary of talking about negative behavior that I have experienced from men, because I have found that it is a very common reaction to that to criticize the woman’s behavior or dress. It’s not very heartening to talk about living with PTSD as a result of sexual abuse, only to find that it means your conduct becomes up for scrutiny. I would very much like the same freedom to talk in church that a cancer patient or diabetic might find, and I am saddened that both because of the nature of mental illness and because of the dynamics around gender that is often not the case.

It’s not labeling all Christians as hypocrites to say that in one’s experience certain forms of hypocrisy are depressingly common.

I think there is a lot of truth to what you are saying here. However, I also think the “criticizing” of the woman’s behavior or dress is more out of a place of love - even though it’s totally wrong approach. You don’t blame a rape victim. However, it’s also not wrong to want to lower the chances of becoming a victim, even it it’s only a few % points.

This line of thinking is similar to the idea, “if you don’t want to get robbed, stay out of bad neighborhoods.” When someone goes into a bad neighborhood - which they have been warned about - without real reason and gets robbed… well you will have some people say “I told you so.”

Some people simply practice tough love, which was far more common among older generations than with Millennials. Spanking is a perfect example: if my dad would said a bad word when he was a kid, his mother would give him a smack in the face and wash his mouth out with soap. When I was a kid, if I said something bad, I would get a spank on the rear and sometimes threatened with getting my mouth washed out with soap. If my kids say something bad, we send them to their room and threaten to take away their technology.

I think the issue here is that many people do not have any training or knowledge regarding how to discuss these issues. Older people simply view a lot of modern women’s clothing the same way they view those sweatpants with the “Juicy” slapped on the behind. And many people have a tough time logically understanding why something that was immodest when they were kids is now considered ok today.

I think that in many ways, due to the sexual revolution, women’s dress is linked to (fairly or not) birth control, divorce, abortion, the hookup culture, cohabitation, etc.

Also, you have to remember, what was considered modest for hundreds (if not over a thousand years) for women have changed dramatically within a life time - perhaps thanks mainly to TV and movies. If lots of men started wearing low cut shirts, sleeveless shirts, short shorts again, briefs at the beach, etc… I’m sure you would start hearing a lot about men needing to dress more modestly.

Point it… it’s WRONG to blame a victim. However, it’s also wise to learn from victims and wise to reduce the chances of becoming a statistic by not wearing tight or revealing clothes and staying away from places where there is lots of sinful behavior.

 

[phil19034]

These guys show a lot more problems than exposure to porn. They don’t just lack social skills, but have social habits practically guaranteed to insult the targets of their jibes. Is it possible that any of them actually gains positive attention that way? I think not.

True that porn is not the sole reason. But porn is a huge contributor to the acceleration of the ongoing destruction of chivalry.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

If you treat, behave and dress yourself with feminine dignity, men will treat you with it as well. That covers both sides, don’t you think?

Certain men are going to treat women terribly regardless of how they dress. I think most (though not all, granted) of the focus on this subject needs to be redirected toward men. They need to be told, “It doesn’t matter how a woman is dressed; you still need to treat her as a child of God.” There were male saints who ministered to prostitutes, so it’s not an impossible feat.

Men can control their lusts on their own. Of course, no woman should strive to be an occasion of sin, but they’re in charge of their own body and soul.

Just as few overweight women adopt a healthy weight because of fat-shaming, so too will few women who could use a change of wardrobe do so if they are shamed by telling them they have no dignity and that they are responsible for men’s purity. Love is necessary in both instances if one is to inspire a true change of heart.

 

[goout]

These guys show a lot more problems than exposure to porn. They don’t just lack social skills, but have social habits practically guaranteed to insult the targets of their jibes. Is it possible that any of them actually gains positive attention that way? I think not.

Studies of serial murderers have found that pornography is a common and key indicator of extreme violence towards women.

Ted Bundy I believe is one who expressed himself in depth on that subject.
And seemingly not a month goes by when some man is not discovered with a sexual torture chamber and bizarre practices fueled by porn use.
Pornography is a ghastly and terrifying scourge. It dehumanizes women (and men) and makes them objects of passion.

 

[mommy_k]

You treat yourself with respect because you are a temple of the Holy Spirit and a child of God and you have the same duty to treat yourself with respect as anyone else, with more direct responsibility because some of the respect you are due can only come from you. No one else is going to choose your clothes. No one else can guard what comes out of your mouth or what thoughts you choose to think, where you go, how you get there and what you allow yourself to do when you arrive.

We ought to treat others with respect for the same reasons and without regard to whether they treat themselves respect, because it is our duty to recognize those who meant enough to God for God to have suffered and died for their eternal redemption. No one can supply themselves with reasons they deserve respect that can compete with that one: that is, the reason that stirred the Good Samaritan to compassion for a total stranger. That is why the rich and the self-controlled really do not deserve more respect than anyone else, even though some of us do of course deserve positions of trust that others among us do not. (By position of trust, I mean inclusion in intimate friendships, responsibility over property or over social or spiritual situations that don’t belong to them and are not theirs to handle however they please, and so on. No one, for instance, deserves to be married or even to be included in the circle of trust that is the Church as a sign of respect. One must be worthy of that trust, and that position of trust can be lost.)

It is unfortunate that the OP has had so many bad interactions with men she does not know. That is not typical, even in the secular world. She’s even described experiences that indicate the fellow in question has a serious mental illness.

Yes. Part of personal dignity is how well we share it in interactions with others and consistantly strive to have pureness in our own soul. I believe when we extend this to others, it is most times reciprocated, and when its not, then through humility we understand that it is not possible to always control outcomes–many Saints and people living thier Catholic faith can attest to this.

As for the disturbing interactions that the op experienced, I agree this is certainly not typical.

 

[mommy_k]

Certain men are going to treat women terribly regardless of how they dress. I think most (though not all, granted) of the focus on this subject needs to be redirected toward men. They need to be told, “It doesn’t matter how a woman is dressed; you still need to treat her as a child of God.” There were male saints who ministered to prostitutes, so it’s not an impossible feat.

Men can control their lusts on their own. Of course, no woman should strive to be an occasion of sin, but they’re in charge of their own body and soul.

Just as few overweight women adopt a healthy weight because of fat-shaming, so too will few women who could use a change of wardrobe do so if they are shamed by telling them they have no dignity and that they are responsible for men’s purity. Love is necessary in both instances if one is to inspire a true change of heart.

I think my reply to Easter Joy covered this also.

 

[phil19034]

Certain men are going to treat women terribly regardless of how they dress. I think most (though not all, granted) of the focus on this subject needs to be redirected toward men. They need to be told, “It doesn’t matter how a woman is dressed; you still need to treat her as a child of God.” There were male saints who ministered to prostitutes, so it’s not an impossible feat.

Men can control their lusts on their own. Of course, no woman should strive to be an occasion of sin, but they’re in charge of their own body and soul.

Just as few overweight women adopt a healthy weight because of fat-shaming, so too will few women who could use a change of wardrobe do so if they are shamed by telling them they have no dignity and that they are responsible for men’s purity. Love is necessary in both instances if one is to inspire a true change of heart.

There is ZERO doubt that men need to control their desires. There is ZERO argument that men are not a fault.

HOWEVER, if a woman’s immodest dress causes a man to have impure thoughts, there are actually two sins committed. The sin of scandal by the woman and the sin committed by the man.

Secular society (and many mainline Protestant groups) do not believe in the sin of scandal. They teach that what you do is your own business and no one else’s. And since everyone is 100% responsible for their own actions, it’s not your problem to worry about the example you are setting for others or how your actions subconsciously affect others.

This is NO different than the sin of scandal I committed as a young adult by living with my girlfriend (now wife). My example caused significant scandal in my family because I was the oldest. I’m the oldest of 5 kids, and 3 of my siblings had kids out of wedlock. I strongly believe that my bad example contributed. I made sexual sin more “acceptable” to my parents, to the point that my baby sister is still living with her boyfriend even though they have a 9 year old child.

Even though, they make their own choices, my bad example started their journey of the path.

Immodest dress (whether it’s a man dressed immodestly in front of a woman or a woman dressed immodestly in front of a man) places temptation in their path.

BTW - what is the motivation for dressing immodestly anyway?

 

[Bill_Martin]

Unfortunately, in my experience, it doesn’t work the other way around. A lot of men will approach a perfectly modestly dressed woman in a lewd manner. And I’ll be honest, most of the women I see held up as “modest” in Christian circles don’t look like me - I’m a curvy girl and nothing short of a muumuu is going to hide that fact. I don’t really know what’s going through their heads, but a lot of guys will take advantage of anyone who looks to be young, female, and with a decent figure for lewd advances.

That’s my frustration with a lot of Christian circles. Sure I dress modestly - but a lot of people don’t get that it doesn’t do much in terms of stopping lewd behavior. I have a lot of mixed feelings about modesty - the way I learned modesty felt very objectifying. It felt like your body was bad and you should be ashamed of it. It even got to the point for me where I was trying to starve myself so I would have smaller breasts and thus not be as tempting to men.

I agree that modesty does little to ward off creeps. I have heard from several Egyptian women that they feel far more comfortable taking public transportation in the US than in Egypt. Sexual assault over there is rampant beyond belief, and the average Egyptian woman dresses very modestly.

 

[DarkLight]

I think there is a lot of truth to what you are saying here. However, I also think the “criticizing” of the woman’s behavior or dress is more out of a place of love - even though it’s totally wrong approach. You don’t blame a rape victim. However, it’s also not wrong to want to lower the chances of becoming a victim, even it it’s only a few % points.

This line of thinking is similar to the idea, “if you don’t want to get robbed, stay out of bad neighborhoods.” When someone goes into a bad neighborhood - which they have been warned about - without real reason and gets robbed… well you will have some people say “I told you so.”

Point it… it’s WRONG to blame a victim. However, it’s also wise to learn from victims and wise to reduce the chances of becoming a statistic by not wearing tight or revealing clothes and staying away from places where there is lots of sinful behavior.

Part of the trouble is it can come across as tone-deaf. For example, the worst place for sexual harassment for me was the central bus stop (where you transferred buses if you needed to ride a different line to your destination). The bus stop isn’t a place you go because you really want to. It’s where you go because you can’t afford a car and need to get somewhere.

And at some point it does seem too restrictive. For example, I noticed how nice I looked had an effect on the harassment - if I went out in jeans and a t-shirt and my hair roughly pulled back, I was less likely to be harassed than if I was wearing a skirt and blouse and had my makeup and hair done. Doesn’t mean I should have to stop dressing nicely for work because I attracted more male attention that way and am thus at greater risk.

 

[phil19034]

And at some point it does seem too restrictive. For example, I noticed how nice I looked had an effect on the harassment - if I went out in jeans and a t-shirt and my hair roughly pulled back, I was less likely to be harassed than if I was wearing a skirt and blouse and had my makeup and hair done. Doesn’t mean I should have to stop dressing nicely for work because I attracted more male attention that way and am thus at greater risk.

Too restrictive?

Sometimes it isn’t what you wear, but how you wear it. Meaning, are you making it sexy or not.

NOTE: I am NOT implying that you are “making it sexy.”

Today’s society teaches that it’s good to dress sexy. But “sexy” isn’t of God, it’s of the devil. Beauty is of God.

A lot of women today can’t tell the difference between dressing beautiful/pretty vs. dressing sexy.

It’s very possible to dress beautifully without dressing sexy. Just as it’s very possible to dress sexy while wearing ugly clothes. Again, sometimes, it’s not what you wear, but how you wear it.

And honestly, the clothing companies push “sexy” and design far more sexy clothes for women than not.

When my daughter grows up, I will make sure to teach her this one piece of advice (and I pray she takes it).

“If a man or woman says ‘you look sexy,’ it means you need to change your clothes.”

BTW - regarding the bus depot, there are a lot of sketchy people in places like that. As a man, even I do not feel safe or comfortable in bus depots, or at some train stations during off hours. If a city doesn’t crack down on homeless and bad behavior at public transportation hubs like that, they can become very scary places for BOTH men and women. I’ve had the same type of guy who is cat calling after you, threaten to beat me up simply because I looked in their general direction. Afterall, criminals typically behave like criminals.

 

[Xantippe]

Too restrictive?

Sometimes it isn’t what you wear, but how you wear it. Meaning, are you making it sexy or not.

NOTE: I am NOT implying that you are “making it sexy.”

Today’s society teaches that it’s good to dress sexy. But “sexy” isn’t of God, it’s of the devil. Beauty is of God.

A lot of women today can’t tell the difference between dressing beautiful/pretty vs. dressing sexy.

It’s very possible to dress beautifully without dressing sexy. Just as it’s very possible to dress sexy while wearing ugly clothes. Again, sometimes, it’s not what you wear, but how you wear it.

And honestly, the clothing companies push “sexy” and design far more sexy clothes for women than not.

When my daughter grows up, I will make sure to teach her this one piece of advice (and I pray she takes it).

“If a man or woman says ‘you look sexy,’ it means you need to change your clothes.”

BTW - regarding the bus depot, there are a lot of sketchy people in places like that. As a man, even I do not feel safe or comfortable in bus depots, or at some train stations during off hours. If a city doesn’t crack down on homeless and bad behavior at public transportation hubs like that, they can become very scary places for BOTH men and women. I’ve had the same type of guy who is cat calling after you, threaten to beat me up simply because I looked in their general direction. Afterall, criminals typically behave like criminals.

I think the first part of your post is arguing with the second part.

The second part says basically–bad people do bad stuff, and it doesn’t really matter what you are doing if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Amen!

The first part says–you MUST be doing something to attractive lewd remarks.

The first part is the sort of thing DL was talking about having a problem with from Christian men–the idea that whenever men engage in lewd behavior toward women, that it must be somehow the women’s fault, so the first order of business is to figure out what a particular woman must have been doing wrong.

Seriously, dear CAF men, imagine what would make YOU personally make lewd remarks or indecent suggestions to a woman waiting for a bus?

 

[DarkLight]

I think a lot of guys also don’t realize how much things like hair and makeup can be just part of a uniform for women, and how much more it’s about than just looking pretty.

For me, the kind of makeup and hairstyle I was referring to was typical women’s professional dress. You don’t wear it because it makes you look pretty or sexy - you wear it because that’s what professional women wear, just like a jacket is part of the uniform for a guy whether or not you think you look good in it. For me it has the added bonus that I tend to look older when I wear it. If I’m in a t-shirt, jeans, messy hair, and no makeup, I could easily pass for a high school student or college freshman. Nicely done clothes, hair, and makeup reinforce that I’m an adult who is competent to do my job. Nothing to do with looking pretty or sexy or anything.

 

[Xantippe]

Part of the trouble is it can come across as tone-deaf. For example, the worst place for sexual harassment for me was the central bus stop (where you transferred buses if you needed to ride a different line to your destination). The bus stop isn’t a place you go because you really want to. It’s where you go because you can’t afford a car and need to get somewhere.

And at some point it does seem too restrictive. For example, I noticed how nice I looked had an effect on the harassment - if I went out in jeans and a t-shirt and my hair roughly pulled back, I was less likely to be harassed than if I was wearing a skirt and blouse and had my makeup and hair done. Doesn’t mean I should have to stop dressing nicely for work because I attracted more male attention that way and am thus at greater risk.

Right.

Speaking of restrictive, I do have to quibble a bit with some of 1ke’s thoughts.

1. For one thing, plenty of people (including female people) work odd hours and have to come and go before dawn and after dusk. In Northern states in the winter, dawn may be late and dusk may come very early. To give an extreme example, I was just looking up sunrise and sunset times in Fairbanks, Alaska, and sunrise Dec. 19 was 10:57 AM and sunset was 2:39 PM.

If one never went anywhere when it was dark, that would leave less than 4 hours a day to work with.

1. 1ke mentions going places in groups, but how practical is that for young professional women living on their own, especially when they are new to an area? In all seriousness, how many of us in our years of independent single living had the luxury of having a convoy of friends to meet us at our door whenever we went anywhere after dark, to stay with us however long we wanted to stay, and then convey us back to our doors?

I can’t say as I ever had that. I was doing very well to get the occasional walk or ride home. I would never have gone anywhere, had any sort of social life, and (eek!) never met my husband at all if I had stuck to those rules.

These are rules that can be followed some of the time, but if one were serious about it, it would be socially and emotionally crippling, especially for a woman living on her own in a new area.

1. Another issue I have is that that line makes a big deal out of the dangerousness of strangers–whereas in reality, for women, the most dangerous people are (by and large) people that we already know.

“According to a U.S. Justice Department study, two-thirds of violent attacks against women are committed by someone the woman knows. In the United States, one of the most dangerous places for a woman is her own home.”

pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/studyg/domestic.html