Why does our society show no respect for women, from either side?

[Xantippe]

I** think a lot of guys also don’t realize how much things like hair and makeup can be just part of a uniform for women, and how much more it’s about than just looking pretty.
**
For me, the kind of makeup and hairstyle I was referring to was typical women’s professional dress. You don’t wear it because it makes you look pretty or sexy - you wear it because that’s what professional women wear, just like a jacket is part of the uniform for a guy whether or not you think you look good in it. For me it has the added bonus that I tend to look older when I wear it. If I’m in a t-shirt, jeans, messy hair, and no makeup, I could easily pass for a high school student or college freshman. Nicely done clothes, hair, and makeup reinforce that I’m an adult who is competent to do my job. Nothing to do with looking pretty or sexy or anything.

Right.

You can’t show up to a professional job looking like a slob and plan on keeping the job…

 

[phil19034]

The first part says–you MUST be doing something to attractive lewd remarks.

The first part is the sort of thing DL was talking about having a problem with from Christian men–the idea that whenever men engage in lewd behavior toward women, that it must be somehow the women’s fault, so the first order of business is to figure out what a particular woman must have been doing wrong.

Seriously, dear CAF men, imagine what would make YOU personally make lewd remarks or indecent suggestions to a woman waiting for a bus?

If that’s what you took away from the 1st part of my post, then I did a terrible job.

My point was that SOMETIMES what women wear (or how they wear it) attractives lewd remarks. But I was not referring to her specific situation. I wasn’t discussing what was happening to her at the bus stop. I was simply addressing the jeans vs dress scenario in a more general audience, but not specific to her or the the bus stop.

 

[AClaire11]

I think DL also mentioned being pretty curvy, yes? I developed early and am skinny but very curvy, and I think it does make a difference. Unless you dress in a sack, there’s no way to really hide your figure (not that you should have to), which can make your outfit seem more provocative than it really is. I end up doing a lot more layering than flatter friends, for example, but nothing non-drastic will shrink my chest. And then some guys are just jerks. I got street-harassed by migrants while 9 months pregnant.

Also the stuff about knowing better than to go into bad neighborhoods is a bit classist. Some of us have to live in or near them and walk through them to catch the bus or go to the store. I have to walk through one to get to church, too.

 

[phil19034]

I think a lot of guys also don’t realize how much things like hair and makeup can be just part of a uniform for women, and how much more it’s about than just looking pretty.

For me, the kind of makeup and hairstyle I was referring to was typical women’s professional dress. You don’t wear it because it makes you look pretty or sexy - you wear it because that’s what professional women wear, just like a jacket is part of the uniform for a guy whether or not you think you look good in it. For me it has the added bonus that I tend to look older when I wear it. If I’m in a t-shirt, jeans, messy hair, and no makeup, I could easily pass for a high school student or college freshman. Nicely done clothes, hair, and makeup reinforce that I’m an adult who is competent to do my job. Nothing to do with looking pretty or sexy or anything.

This actually strengthens my societal argument. The simply fact that doing hair and makeup is “part of the uniform” is a societal problem. Why does our society look down on women who don’t wear makeup to work? If men don’t wear makeup, why must women?

The fact that some women feel that they need to spend 1 hour getting dressed, putting on makeup and doing their hair is seems very unfair to me.

It takes me 1 hour to get ready for work. 45 minutes in the shower 35-40 of those minutes simply letting hot water run over my body while I think about my day. Then 15 minutes to shave, get dressed, grab my lunch and walk out the door. And if I need to wear a suit, it usually adds 1 minute for me to pick out and put on a tie.

My point is, society really subconsciously stresses to girls & women that they must be attractive to succeed and to be happy. And that’s a shame.

Afterall, every time I see a business woman wearing a pencil skirt and high heels, I think to myself, how in the world can she be conformable in that (not because of modesty reasons, but because they look EXTREMELY uncomfortable to wear. Why not a pant suit with a long sleeve blouse and jacket, similar to what men wear? And with comfortable shoes like many men wear (the leather sole shoes are going out of style with younger men who prefer rubber soles).

 

[Xantippe]

I think DL also mentioned being pretty curvy, yes? I developed early and am skinny but very curvy, and I think it does make a difference. Unless you dress in a sack, there’s no way to really hide your figure (not that you should have to), which can make your outfit seem more provocative than it really is. I end up doing a lot more layering than flatter friends, for example, but nothing non-drastic will shrink my chest. And then some guys are just jerks. I got street-harassed by migrants while 9 months pregnant.

Also the stuff about knowing better than to go into bad neighborhoods is a bit classist. Some of us have to live in or near them and walk through them to catch the bus or go to the store. I have to walk through one to get to church, too.

Yep.

I have a friend who got followed around a store by a guy when way pregnant and had to ask for security to walk her out to her car in broad daylight.

True fact: there are perverts who especially like pregnant women. (Don’t google that, just take my word for it.)

 

[phil19034]

Also the stuff about knowing better than to go into bad neighborhoods is a bit classist. Some of us have to live in or near them and walk through them to catch the bus or go to the store. I have to walk through one to get to church, too.

I wasn’t defending the remarks, which you call classist. I was explaining that it’s what some people think.

Some people (like my father) would say if you live in a bad neighborhood, then move. He used to tell me that if I can’t afford to move to a better neighborhood, then I should move to a cheaper state (though honestly, my neighborhood was never that bad expect once after a potential mob hit and on after last calls on Thursday - Saturday nights when the drunks were out). When I would say, I can’t get a job in a cheaper state, he would say something like money isn’t important and you can make less money if you live away from the cities, etc., etc., etc.

Point is, there are lots of people who have my dad’s mindset. That, you can avoid bad neighborhoods if you really want to, even if that means moving to the middle of nowhere and having a 2+ hour commute or finding a job that pays less.

NOTE: my dad isn’t classist, it took him almost 40 years to break the $50,000 per mark.

God Bless

 

[phil19034]

Yep.

I have a friend who got followed around a store by a guy when way pregnant and had to ask for security to walk her out to her car in broad daylight.

True fact: there are perverts who especially like pregnant women. (Don’t google that, just take my word for it.)

yes. And there are pervert with all sorts of other fetishes too. Pencils skirt fetishes, librarian fetishes, catholic school girl fetishes, etc.

The porn society is really have a severely damaging effect on today’s men. And that is NOT the fault of women.

 

[Xantippe]

I wasn’t defending the remarks, which you call classist. I was explaining that it’s what some people think.

Some people (like my father) would say if you live in a bad neighborhood, then move. He used to tell me that if I can’t afford to move to a better neighborhood, then I should move to a cheaper state (though honestly, my neighborhood was never that bad expect once after a potential mob hit and on after last calls on Thursday - Saturday nights when the drunks were out). When I would say, I can’t get a job in a cheaper state, he would say something like money isn’t important and you can make less money if you live away from the cities, etc., etc., etc.

Point is, there are lots of people who have my dad’s mindset. That, you can avoid bad neighborhoods if you really want to, even if that means moving to the middle of nowhere and having a 2+ hour commute or finding a job that pays less.

NOTE: my dad isn’t classist, it took him almost 40 years to break the $50,000 per mark.

God Bless

That’s a long-term plan, not a short-term plan.

It also involves having a car of one’s own, which is a major project for a low-income person.

And remember, we’re not supposed to be going anywhere after dark or coming home late or going anywhere alone or coming home alone, and following those rules is going to cut a lot into earning potential. Also, if we move to a new area, how can we get that group of people to take us everywhere when we don’t know anybody yet?

It’s just unworkable. My uncharitable explanation is that the whole thing is set up to be able to blame women no matter what.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m getting a bit agey, but I don’t have a lot of understanding of men who don’t respect women. What’s the point? Even if a woman is a jerk (and there are plenty of those) there’s no point in treating her badly. If you don’t think well enough of her to treat her with respect, it’s best to just leave her alone. Interaction will turn out badly, and probably for both.

When I was dating, the most attractive female appearance to me was being well-groomed and tastefully dressed, with maybe just a touch of something mildly, but tastefully, suggesting sexiness…in single women only. I figured single women had a right to that. After all, lots of them were trying to be attractive to single men, and that was okay with me.
As a single man, I wasn’t looking for another guy to run around with. I was looking for a woman, and one with certain characteristics. One, I’ll admit, was attractiveness to me. Some were to me (I’ll say it) intensely “sexy” without forcing it in any way. Another was being a genuine Catholic woman. Another was cleverness and a certain degree of cultural literacy. Another was determination and knowing her own mind.

I am sure lots of men accost women in a bad way. But to tell the truth, I often approached young women “cold call” that I didn’t know at all, and tried to strike up a conversation, hopefully leading to a date. Some weren’t interested, and let it be known. Some were; most of them as I recall. I see nothing wrong with that. When you’re single and you know the other person is single, that’s part of what you’re about. You’re both hunting. It’s part of the game of life.

Overly revealing clothing just struck me as being slobbish and, really didn’t seem attractive. It still seems so to me. Rolls of flesh extruding from the top of one’s jeans, for example, or excessive and forced cleavage are just not very pretty. I am not sure why women wear things like that, but I think they’re deluded if they think it’s attractive to the kind of men they really ought to be attracting. But self-delusion is hardly rare in this world.

When I met my wife of, lo, these many years, it was as 'cold" a call as could be imagined. I didn’t like her at first, and she didn’t like me. She was sharp-tongued in a clever and self-assured way, and I deserved every shot she gave me. It was at a political watch party. We ultimately made a truce, and began to like each other. We started dating and eventually realized we loved each other for quite some while before either of us would admit it.

She was modest, and yet very attractive as a woman if you know what I mean. I can’t even explain it. She didn’t overdo modesty and had that “touch” of mysterious allure that you couldn’t describe. She knew who she was.

Maybe I’m behind the times here.

 

[AClaire11]

I wasn’t defending the remarks, which you call classist. I was explaining that it’s what some people think.

Some people (like my father) would say if you live in a bad neighborhood, then move. He used to tell me that if I can’t afford to move to a better neighborhood, then I should move to a cheaper state (though honestly, my neighborhood was never that bad expect once after a potential mob hit and on after last calls on Thursday - Saturday nights when the drunks were out). When I would say, I can’t get a job in a cheaper state, he would say something like money isn’t important and you can make less money if you live away from the cities, etc., etc., etc.

Point is, there are lots of people who have my dad’s mindset. That, you can avoid bad neighborhoods if you really want to, even if that means moving to the middle of nowhere and having a 2+ hour commute or finding a job that pays less.

NOTE: my dad isn’t classist, it took him almost 40 years to break the $50,000 per mark.

God Bless

So we should go into debt to buy a car and move 2 hours away and my husband will never see our children during the week? Or give up a federal job to move somewhere cheap where he can’t get a job in his field? I think I’d rather deal with a few colorful blocks between me and where I’m going. Unless, of course, the busybodies are going to fund this.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This actually strengthens my societal argument. The simply fact that doing hair and makeup is “part of the uniform” is a societal problem. Why does our society look down on women who don’t wear makeup to work? If men don’t wear makeup, why must women?

The fact that some women feel that they need to spend 1 hour getting dressed, putting on makeup and doing their hair is seems very unfair to me.

It takes me 1 hour to get ready for work. 45 minutes in the shower 35-40 of those minutes simply letting hot water run over my body while I think about my day. Then 15 minutes to shave, get dressed, grab my lunch and walk out the door. And if I need to wear a suit, it usually adds 1 minute for me to pick out and put on a tie.

My point is, society really subconsciously stresses to girls & women that they must be attractive to succeed and to be happy. And that’s a shame.

Afterall, every time I see a business woman wearing a pencil skirt and high heels, I think to myself, how in the world can she be conformable in that (not because of modesty reasons, but because they look EXTREMELY uncomfortable to wear. Why not a pant suit with a long sleeve blouse and jacket, similar to what men wear? And with comfortable shoes like many men wear (the leather sole shoes are going out of style with younger men who prefer rubber soles).

Not to pick a fight here, but there’s nothing comfortable about wearing a tie, and dress shirt collars are not comfortable when they’re buttoned to the top. And a suit coat is not warm enough for outside in the winter, but it’s warm enough to be uncomfortable in an office or a theater.

Men don’t wear makeup because circulation in our faces is greater than womens’, so we have more natural color. We have more surface arteries. For whatever reason, a robust skin tone is thought to be attractive, and generally is. I think both men and women identify it subconsciously with health, and healthiness is attractive. Think of the robust color of a farm girl’s face. It’s due to sun exposure and just looks healthy (however she might pay for it later in life).

Women wear some pretty uncomfortable foundation-type garments because their connective tissue is about half what men have. So they wear them to avoid the appearance of being “bumpy” and lacking the smooth symmetry people identify with an athleticism most of us lack.

Good posture and musculature are similar. They just look healthy. Women wear high heels to get a little height, but also because it causes the calf muscles to contract, giving them more definition and forces a more erect posture and more assertive gait. Negatively, it also forces the femur to slide forward over the knee joint. Eventually and if worn excessively, high heels can harm knee cartilage, but it also gives more muscle definition to the leg around and above the knee. It looks healthy. Men have shoulder pads in our jackets for the same reason. Makes us look better muscled than we really are. And, truth be told, dress shirts make our necks look more flexed and thicker than they really are. That’s no accident of design. And pleated pants we wear distract the eye from what might be an unattractive broadness of beam.

But there’s also one thing we men need to realize. Women don’t dress the way they do just for us men. Noooooooo. A good part of it is directed to other women; perhaps most of it. Watch a woman enter a room in which there are a number of men and women. She’ll size up every woman in the room, and doing so tells her a lot more about those women that we men know. And the more formal the occasion is, the more she’ll do it, and the more detail she’ll notice.

And finally, most women don’t dress like men because they don’t want to look like men. No surprise to that.

 

[DarkLight]

For another thing, as Xantippe pointed out, a significant portion of assaults are committed by men that the woman in question knows. Certainly we don’t go back with a strange woman, but is it really reasonable in our society for a young, single, professional woman to never be alone with an unrelated man? Was I being all that unwise in college for going back to my boyfriend’s dorm room and expecting not to be assaulted for doing so? I mean, this wasn’t a man I had just met - it was a man I knew and thought I could trust and who I believed shared my Christian values.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

There is ZERO doubt that men need to control their desires. There is ZERO argument that men are not a fault.

HOWEVER, if a woman’s immodest dress causes a man to have impure thoughts, there are actually two sins committed. The sin of scandal by the woman and the sin committed by the man.

Secular society (and many mainline Protestant groups) do not believe in the sin of scandal. They teach that what you do is your own business and no one else’s. And since everyone is 100% responsible for their own actions, it’s not your problem to worry about the example you are setting for others or how your actions subconsciously affect others.

This is NO different than the sin of scandal I committed as a young adult by living with my girlfriend (now wife). My example caused significant scandal in my family because I was the oldest. I’m the oldest of 5 kids, and 3 of my siblings had kids out of wedlock. I strongly believe that my bad example contributed. I made sexual sin more “acceptable” to my parents, to the point that my baby sister is still living with her boyfriend even though they have a 9 year old child.

Even though, they make their own choices, my bad example started their journey of the path.

Immodest dress (whether it’s a man dressed immodestly in front of a woman or a woman dressed immodestly in front of a man) places temptation in their path.

BTW - what is the motivation for dressing immodestly anyway?

Except that immodest dress is a very relative concept, whereas straight-up sexual sin is the same everywhere. Some might consider me immodest because I wear pants that fit. Some might consider certain groups of Latin American girls to be immodest because they might dress according to more tropical standards of modesty. Most women aren’t consciously sexual in their choice of attire; to them, it’s just clothes, it looks nice, it goes with their shoes, it’s the only clothing they have, etc. You can’t say a woman’s causing scandal if you don’t know her motivation.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

For another thing, as Xantippe pointed out, a significant portion of assaults are committed by men that the woman in question knows. Certainly we don’t go back with a strange woman, but is it really reasonable in our society for a young, single, professional woman to never be alone with an unrelated man? Was I being all that unwise in college for going back to my boyfriend’s dorm room and expecting not to be assaulted for doing so? I mean, this wasn’t a man I had just met - it was a man I knew and thought I could trust and who I believed shared my Christian values.

Exactly. The only way to be really safe is to cease all human interaction. At what point does the responsibility fall squarely on the attacker?

 

[Lea101]

Immodest dress (whether it’s a man dressed immodestly in front of a woman or a woman dressed immodestly in front of a man) places temptation in their path.

BTW - what is the motivation for dressing immodestly anyway?

Well, it’s fashionable to dress that way now. You would be surprised that a good deal of women aren’t lying when they say that they are not wearing short shorts to only get your attention. I think by now, a lot of us know that men generally do not treat women nicely if they wear stuff like that. They do it because they feel more confident in it-whatever the underlying reasons of that may be, so they expect men to just deal with it. I mean, if we really care about men’s opinions, drag makeup and Kardashian-esque clothes would be out long ago Plus, there are more options if you do not only wear modest clothing. More stuff are available because there are no guidelines you follow. A woman who, say, only wears long skirts/dresses have less stuff to choose from.

Immodest clothes are generally more flattering on me (I’m a very short person), even though my body is nothing to write home about. Modest clothes (even the nice trendy ones) either make me look frumpy or 12-so I just stick with jeans and t-shirts to church or school.

They are also so ridiculously easy to find. I was just out shopping for hours yesterday and I only found 2 modest items I liked-both t-shirts It was so bad that I took a bunch of clothes (modest and immodest) to try out and I only felt beautiful in the ones that showed too much skin. It was so pathetic that I actually ended up crying in there, lol.

And last but not least, some women don’t find what they wear to be immodest. A woman might be wearing a really fitting dress and there will be guys thinking that she is promiscuous etc but the poor woman has no idea because it doesn’t show her cleavage or legs. Or a girl wearing shorts to school has no idea that her outfit is ‘scandalous’ because it’s just a pair of old shorts she finds comfy in the weather. So when you point this out, it just looks like men have nothing better to do than to dictate women on what to wear.

honestly, a lot of guys do not realise that not everything we do is for them

 

[Lea101]

Afterall, every time I see a business woman wearing a pencil skirt and high heels, I think to myself, how in the world can she be conformable in that (not because of modesty reasons, but because they look EXTREMELY uncomfortable to wear. Why not a pant suit with a long sleeve blouse and jacket, similar to what men wear? And with comfortable shoes like many men wear (the leather sole shoes are going out of style with younger men who prefer rubber soles).

Let’s be real here. If pantsuits were the norm instead of pencil skirts, there will be men (and women) who will then say stuff like “Women are trying to be like men/femininity is not valued anymore/ahh the curse of feminism!”

We can’t win!

As a single man, I wasn’t looking for another guy to run around with. I was looking for a woman, and one with certain characteristics. One, I’ll admit, was attractiveness to me. Some were to me (I’ll say it) intensely “sexy” without forcing it in any way. Another was being a genuine Catholic woman. Another was cleverness and a certain degree of cultural literacy. Another was determination and knowing her own mind.

I am sure lots of men accost women in a bad way. But to tell the truth, I often approached young women “cold call” that I didn’t know at all, and tried to strike up a conversation, hopefully leading to a date. Some weren’t interested, and let it be known. Some were; most of them as I recall. I see nothing wrong with that. When you’re single and you know the other person is single, that’s part of what you’re about. You’re both hunting. It’s part of the game of life.

Maybe I’m behind the times here.

I do not understand why you brought this up/what your point is, so forgive me if I get it wrong. The men who catcall women are not looking for a girlfriend, and none of them probably expect the woman to turn around and straddle them. It’s a lot different than what you are talking about-men who are trying to get to know the woman in a respectful way.

 

[ThePCWife]

Marital Rape was considered non-existent and women couldn’t apply for a credit card. I personally laugh when people refer it to as “the good old days”. Perhaps if you were of a certain race and sex it was “good”. I love the fact that I can choose to be a stay at home mom while my daughter is free to choose between attending law school or becoming a secretary. I couldn’t be more thrilled she chose law school.

Phyllis Schlafly would like to have a word with you, if she could. Linda McMahon definitely could, in any case.

The lack of historical knowledge about women’s roles throughout fairly recent history from people who airily spout the Women’s Studies 101 party line is always strange to me. It’s especially strange to hear from the OP, who says they were homeschooled, since it kind of debunks the idea that homeschool educations are necessarily more comprehensive or factually oriented than private or public school ones.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Phyllis Schlafly would like to have a word with you, if she could. Linda McMahon definitely could, in any case.

The lack of historical knowledge about women’s roles throughout fairly recent history from people who airily spout the Women’s Studies 101 party line is always strange to me. It’s especially strange to hear from the OP, who says they were homeschooled, since it kind of debunks the idea that homeschool educations are necessarily more comprehensive or factually oriented than private or public school ones.

I don’t agree with your opinions, so my education must have been lacking: got it. Well, my mom did use a lot of Phyllis Schlafly’s educational materials, so there is that

I actually interviewed Phyllis Schlafly several years ago. She told me that she didn’t believe sexual harassment was a real thing.

I go to a private Catholic college, and have never taken a “Women’s Studies” class. I have taken several history classes, however, and read documents from different decades. The overall societal attitude toward women 50+ years ago was patronizing at best.

 

[Meagan34]

Phyllis Schlafly would like to have a word with you, if she could. Linda McMahon definitely could, in any case.

The lack of historical knowledge about women’s roles throughout fairly recent history from people who airily spout the Women’s Studies 101 party line is always strange to me. It’s especially strange to hear from the OP, who says they were homeschooled, since it kind of debunks the idea that homeschool educations are necessarily more comprehensive or factually oriented than private or public school ones.

I’m sure she would (if she weren’t currently fertilizing the Earth) because according to her, sexual harassment does not exist, Universities are the biggest threat to red States, as well as saying that marital rape does not exist. I have never taken a Women Studies class but if you have the same views the the women above, well then yes, perhaps sexual harassment and it’s related topics on abuse of women might all fall under “Women’s Studies 101” to you.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

“Fulfill their potential.” Right. Get out and dig those ditches right alongside the menfolk. Hire a professional to change diapers and give them their bottle, you’ve got to get out and do REAL work in your cubicle.

Surely God erred when He designed the family this way. How could He not have realized that the best system was for both parents to be working outside the home for at least a third of the day while the children are sent away to be raised by the government schools and the media.

I’m joining the Peace Corps, and then going to medical school afterward. I may or may not get married and have children; either is a possibility. At any rate, I don’t plan on having an abortion, and I will be a mother to any children I might have. Point is, changing social roles for women have given me the freedom to pursue my own God-given vocation, and not bow to my society’s expectations of my life.

There’s nothing wrong with a woman digging ditches, if that is her vocation. There’s nothing wrong with being a SAHM, or an unmarried corporate leader. A woman can do whatever God calls her to, and she isn’t expected to force herself into a particular mold.