Why does the Archdiocese of Detroit weekly paper allow ...?

[setter]

Why does the Archdiocese of Detoit weekly paper allow the Curia and vicar general to endorse and advertise the selected writings of a widely known and documented dissident bishop?

A PUBLICATION OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF DETROIT
The Michigan
Catholic​

**‘The Practical Prophet’ **
Bishop Untener’s writings continue to connect Gospel and contemporary challenges

Published January 26, 2007
Msgr. John Zenz, Special to The Michigan Catholic

For years I have admired Bishop Ken Untener, and yet, I have always been somewhat puzzled by him; he seemed simple and straight-forward but was actually very complex. Exceptionally talented in many ways and a very well-rounded person, he was perceptive and insightful.

Who could possibly describe Bishop Ken Untener? How could you summarize him in a word or phrase? The editors of his pastoral writings have done so in an eminent way with their edited collection entitled, “The Practical Prophet.” If Bishop Untener was anything, he was practical! He deeply believed in God and wanted to make the story of Jesus Christ come alive in fresh and meaningful ways for people in today’s world. The editors — Bishop Untener’s “theology squad” who used to help him in the writing of his homilies and reflections — have put together a well organized distillation of homilies and other articles and presentations that Bishop Untener wrote or delivered during the 24 years he served as bishop of Saginaw. The writings address issues of priestly life and ministry as well as matters of social justice, including the fostering of a genuine love for the poor, challenges about how to confront abortion and euthanasia, the tragedy of war, and how to deal with the challenges of a Church in the midst of change.

aodonline.org/AODOnline/News+++Publications+2203/Michigan+Catholic+News+12203/2007+The+Michigan+Catholic+News+14936/070126+MCN±+The+Practical+Prophet.htm

 

[frommi]

Because he wasn’t a dissident perhaps?

 

[Sixtus]

Why does the Archdiocese of Detoit weekly paper allow the Curia and vicar general to endorse and advertise the selected writings of a widely known and documented dissident bishop?

I do not know but it does not necessarily follow that everything a dissident writes is dissident. He may be a very accomplished writer worthy of being read.

I would like to think that the Church sees the value in everyone including dissidents, in a spirit of 'not approving of what they do, approving of who they are: a child of Christ

 

[Sixtus]

Why does the Archdiocese of Detoit weekly paper allow the Curia and vicar general to endorse and advertise the selected writings of a widely known and documented dissident bishop?

I do not know but it does not necessarily follow that everything a dissident writes is dissident. He may be a very accomplished writer worthy of being read.

I would like to think that the Church sees the value in everyone including dissidents, in a spirit of ‘not approving of what they do’, approving of who they are: ‘a child of Christ’

 

[jimmie]

Maybe because they recognize what value he brought to his diocese and the people he shepherded. He was known around the country as being someone who had disagreements with the Catholic Church. But he was also known as someone who loved the Catholic Church and its place in the world. On three separate occasions, I met people in airports - Denver, Orlando, and San Fransisco - who upon hearing that I was from Saginaw - said - Oh, you are so lucky. We love your bishop.

So yes, there were many people who disagreed with him - and with his teachings - but there were many many people who loved him for his teachings and for his sincere efforts to be a shepherd to his people.

He may have dissented in many ways - but he followed in great footsteps. Most of our great apostles and saints were dissenters…following in the footsteps of the greatest dissenter, Jesus. And he wasn’t dissenting from Jewish faith and beliefs - but in the way they were being practiced. Bishop Ken was often dissenting in the same way.

 

[fix]

.following in the footsteps of the greatest dissenter, Jesus. And he wasn’t dissenting from Jewish faith and beliefs - but in the way they were being practiced. Bishop Ken was often dissenting in the same way.

Jesus dissented against Himself? Is Christ not the authority behind the Church?

 

[setter]

I do not know but it does not necessarily follow that everything a dissident writes is dissident. He may be a very accomplished writer worthy of being read.

I would like to think that the Church sees the value in everyone including dissidents, in a spirit of ‘not approving of what they do’, approving of who they are: ‘a child of Christ’

This comes across as sentimental and ambiguous hogwash. Would you recommend lemonade that has been laced with a toxin just because most of the mixture is good? I do not think that Jesus is that compromising of the truth. This dissident shepherd of the Church had many difficulties presenting the clear voice of the Shepherd that he promised to faithfully serve.

 

[setter]

Maybe because they recognize what value he brought to his diocese and the people he shepherded. He was known around the country as being someone who had disagreements with the Catholic Church. But he was also known as someone who loved the Catholic Church and its place in the world. On three separate occasions, I met people in airports - Denver, Orlando, and San Fransisco - who upon hearing that I was from Saginaw - said - Oh, you are so lucky. We love your bishop.

So yes, there were many people who disagreed with him - and with his teachings - but there were many many people who loved him for his teachings and for his sincere efforts to be a shepherd to his people.

He may have dissented in many ways - but he followed in great footsteps. Most of our great apostles and saints were dissenters…following in the footsteps of the greatest dissenter, Jesus. And he wasn’t dissenting from Jewish faith and beliefs - but in the way they were being practiced. Bishop Ken was often dissenting in the same way.

Sincere does not always equate with being faithful and obedient. How can true love and compassion contradict truth and cloak itself in disobedience to Church authority? Are you guilty of failing to count the raised hands of the faithful who have been hurt and led into error by this bishop’s “disagreements” with the Church?

 

[setter]

Because he wasn’t a dissident perhaps?

He was well documented dissident.

 

[frommi]

He was well documented dissident.

Well documented by less than neutral sources perhaps…

But anyone who takes the time to carefully examine his scholarly works would disagree with you.

 

[RobedWithLight]

Maybe because they recognize what value he brought to his diocese and the people he shepherded. He was known around the country as being someone who had disagreements with the Catholic Church. But he was also known as someone who loved the Catholic Church and its place in the world. On three separate occasions, I met people in airports - Denver, Orlando, and San Fransisco - who upon hearing that I was from Saginaw - said - Oh, you are so lucky. We love your bishop.

So yes, there were many people who disagreed with him - and with his teachings - but there were many many people who loved him for his teachings and for his sincere efforts to be a shepherd to his people.

He may have dissented in many ways - but he followed in great footsteps. Most of our great apostles and saints were dissenters…following in the footsteps of the greatest dissenter, Jesus. And he wasn’t dissenting from Jewish faith and beliefs - but in the way they were being practiced. Bishop Ken was often dissenting in the same way.

If he truly loves the Catholic Church, is dissenting the best way to express this so-called love?

 

[setter]

Well documented by less than neutral sources perhaps…

But anyone who takes the time to carefully examine his scholarly works would disagree with you.

Let’s let the bishop’s “scholarly works” speak for themselves. Here are two excerpts from the book “The Practical Prophet”, which example why one should be wary of the “practical” implications of this bishop’s dissident writings, which all but carry the net effect of leading the faithful into mistrust of the magisterium and error:

“…we are still left with the public perception of the way in which Humane Vitae came to be, and how the church has dealt with the widespread dissent that followed. In the eyes of many people, the teaching church has committed a cardinal’s sin: It has become more concerned about itself than about truth.” (p. 224); …“In the meantime, the official church exercises its ruling power by saying that women cannot be ordained. But at this point, it is more an exercise of jurisdiction than establishment of truth. The sorting out of traditions from Tradition has not been completed, and there is no short cut to its completion” (p. 220). …from: The Practical Prophet ~ Bishop Kenneth Untener

 

[Veritas41]

Sincere does not always equate with being faithful and obedient. How can true love and compassion contradict truth and cloak itself in disobedience to Church authority? Are you guilty of failing to count the raised hands of the faithful who have been hurt and led into error by this bishop’s “disagreements” with the Church?

My question exactly

I think it says in 1 Corinthians 13 that “love rejoices in the truth”???

 

[jimmie]

Are you guilty of failing to count the raised hands of the faithful who have been hurt and led into error by this bishop’s “disagreements” with the Church? (from Veritas41)

Perhaps only as guilty as those who refuse to count the raised hands of the faithful who were nurtured and inspired by this Bishop!

 

[setter]

Are you guilty of failing to count the raised hands of the faithful who have been hurt and led into error by this bishop’s “disagreements” with the Church? (from Veritas41)

Perhaps only as guilty as those who refuse to count the raised hands of the faithful who were nurtured and inspired by this Bishop!

This is an inadequate and failed response. It really does not matter how many have been “nurtured and inspired”. What matters is whether the writings and preaching of this shepherd of the flock is leading others into error and mistrust of the magisterium or not.

Here is what scripture says about those who wantonly lead others astray in dissident teaching or example.

"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.” **Mark 9: 42 **

“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3: 9-15

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.You will know them by their fruits. …Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’” Matthew 7: 13-16, 21-23

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” **Matthew 10: 34 **

“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4: 12

 

[frommi]

Let’s let the bishop’s “scholarly works” speak for themselves. Here are two excerpts from the book “The Practical Prophet”, which example why one should be wary of the “practical” implications of this bishop’s dissident writings, which all but carry the net effect of leading the faithful into mistrust of the magisterium and error:

Neither quote you cite seems to me to have a net effect on leading the faitful into error…the writer simply points out things that we know to be true perceptions among many of the faithful…and he points out there is not shortcut into discovering the ‘truth’. He is taking issue with the matter in which the church discusses difficult issues as if they can be neatly wrapped up in a apostolic exhortation…and maybe that isn’t true.

What I don’t see in those statements is ANYTHING that resembles “use birth control…and girls…stop by on sunday so I can ordain you”

Taking issue with process and how people talk is not being dissident.

 

[Veritas41]

Are you guilty of failing to count the raised hands of the faithful who have been hurt and led into error by this bishop’s “disagreements” with the Church? (from Veritas41)

Perhaps only as guilty as those who refuse to count the raised hands of the faithful who were nurtured and inspired by this Bishop!

Well, actually that quote above wasn’t from me, but the poster I was responding to and agreeing with.

I’m sure the bishop wasn’t totally bad and everything out of his mouth was error, so in that regard some of what he did/said could have helped others, but that surely wouldn’t completely offset whatever he said/did that was in error. Those who teach will be held accountable:

“What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you–guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.” (2 Tim. 1:13-14)

“Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” (2 Tim 2:15)

 

[Veritas41]

Are you guilty of failing to count the raised hands of the faithful who have been hurt and led into error by this bishop’s “disagreements” with the Church? (from Veritas41)

Perhaps only as guilty as those who refuse to count the raised hands of the faithful who were nurtured and inspired by this Bishop!

Well, actually that quote above wasn’t from me, but the poster I was responding to and agreeing with.

I’m sure the bishop wasn’t totally bad and everything out of his mouth was error, so in that regard some of what he did/said could have helped others, but that surely wouldn’t completely offset whatever he said/did that was in error. Those who teach will be held accountable:

“What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you–guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.” (2 Tim. 1:13-14)

“Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” (2 Tim 2:15)

“Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.” (1 Tim 4:16)

 

[setter]

Neither quote you cite seems to me to have a net effect on leading the faitful into error…the writer simply points out things that we know to be true perceptions among many of the faithful…and he points out there is not shortcut into discovering the ‘truth’. He is taking issue with the matter in which the church discusses difficult issues as if they can be neatly wrapped up in a apostolic exhortation…and maybe that isn’t true.

What I don’t see in those statements is ANYTHING that resembles “use birth control…and girls…stop by on sunday so I can ordain you”

I suggest you reread those two excerpt citations. The bishop is directly bringing into question the integrity and honesty of the magisterium and offering dialogue on issues of faith and morals that have been settled. How does this not suggest and lead Catholics to mistrust or disobey in a false sense of autonomy of conscience …”If the bishop thinks this, then …”. The direct form of dissent at hand is to create doubts, misperception and mistrust of the intention and reliability of the magisterium …much like the tactics of the serpent in the garden who seduced Eve to mistrust and disobey God.

Taking issue with process and how people talk is not being dissident.

It is exactly the “process and how people talk” which is the issue for many dissents in positions of authority or influence. A typical manner in which I have first hand observed clergy manifest dissent is to not necessarily deny what the Church teaches, but to qualify that “in your particular situation …”, all the while pointing the way to dissent but never crossing the line. Sort of like unlocking and opening up the gate and then strolling away with the implicit permission for the person/couple to dissent from established and binding Church teaching in matters of faith and morals. To me this is a very wimpy, if not CYA, approach to dissident pastoral counseling. There is no excuse or naiveté on the part of an avowed religious in my book for such passive-aggressive “pastoral solutions”.

 

[frommi]

I suggest you reread those two excerpt citations. The bishop is directly bringing into question the integrity and honesty of the magisterium and offering dialogue on issues of faith and morals that have been settled. How does this not suggest and lead Catholics to mistrust or disobey in a false sense of autonomy of conscience …”If the bishop thinks this, then …”. The direct form of dissent at hand is to create doubts, misperception and mistrust of the intention and reliability of the magisterium …much like the tactics of the serpent in the garden who seduced Eve to mistrust and disobey God.

It is exactly the “process and how people talk” which is the issue for many dissents in positions of authority or influence. A typical manner in which I have first hand observed clergy manifest dissent is to not necessarily deny what the Church teaches, but to qualify that “in your particular situation …”, all the while pointing the way to dissent but never crossing the line. Sort of like unlocking and opening up the gate and then strolling away with the implicit permission for the person/couple to dissent from established and binding Church teaching in matters of faith and morals. To me this is a very wimpy, if not CYA, approach to dissident pastoral counseling. There is no excuse or naiveté on the part of an avowed religious in my book for such passive-aggressive “pastoral solutions”.

Let’s keep in mind that you are citing articles that were written before the 1994 exhortation by JPII regarding women’s ordination.

And I do think it’s a legitimate gripe that people can have with the church…instead of defending the teachings of the church by talking with people who have questions about them and showing an openess to ‘situations’ and how to apply those teachings…the universal church often acts like they can’t believe anyone would even have a problem with some of this stuff…