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SteveVH
Guest
This thread is being started at the request of Cowboy Pete, who has some questions as to why the Catholic Church accepts baptisms from non-Catholic, Christian churches.
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SteveVH
Guest
This is what the Catechism says:
"The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation." (CCC, par 1256)
The Trinitarian formula is to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit while using the element of water. It is the nature of the sacrament, which is a sacrament of faith, that allows anyone, with the correct intention, to baptize.
"The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation." (CCC, par 1256)
The Trinitarian formula is to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit while using the element of water. It is the nature of the sacrament, which is a sacrament of faith, that allows anyone, with the correct intention, to baptize.
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guanophore
Guest
There is no such thing as a non-Catholic Christian Church. Jesus only founded One Church. Those ecclesial communities that do not meet the Apostolic Criteria for Catholicity are not true Churches.
Cowboy Pete:
Such recognition is not necessary for a valid baptism. Even a non-Christian can administer a valid baptism.
Cowboy Pete:
Yes.
Cowboy Pete:
Yes.
Cowboy Pete:
They cannot. A valid baptism is such because of the authority of the Church. It is accepted because it is Catholic.
Cowboy Pete:
Most non-Catholics do so in ignorance. Knowledge is not required for a valid baptism, only proper form, matter, and intention. The baptized person does not need to know or understand, that is why infant baptisms are accepted.
So long as the person doing the baptism does what the Church intends, it is valid.
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GeorgiiMichael
Guest
“We believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins”
And that Baptism is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
As long as a person was baptized in that way, it is the same baptism as if performed by a Catholic deacon, priest, or bishop. There are some Protestant groups that DON’T baptize in that way, and the Church does not recognize them, most notably among these are the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
And that Baptism is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
As long as a person was baptized in that way, it is the same baptism as if performed by a Catholic deacon, priest, or bishop. There are some Protestant groups that DON’T baptize in that way, and the Church does not recognize them, most notably among these are the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Thank you, Steve!! I really appreciate you posting this for me.
Great answers.
So if I understand correctly, the baptisms are valid precisely because the Pope authorizes them?
So the Pope’s authority applies, even though the baptizer does not acknowledge that authority?
That’s internally consistent. Thank you for explaining it to me – it’s bothered me for a while, and I could not get a consistent answer.
Great answers.
So if I understand correctly, the baptisms are valid precisely because the Pope authorizes them?
So the Pope’s authority applies, even though the baptizer does not acknowledge that authority?
Really?
Ah. So the Catholic church rejects the baptism if they say in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost rather than Holy Spirit?
Interesting! So neither the baptizer nor the baptized person needs to believe, know, or understand, so long as the form is observed?
That’s internally consistent. Thank you for explaining it to me – it’s bothered me for a while, and I could not get a consistent answer.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Also from the CCC:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”
837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”
There is but One Body of Jesus Christ, and by our baptism, we are made His. One faith, one baptism.
[BIBLEDRB]Ephesians 4:4-6[/BIBLEDRB]
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”
837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”
There is but One Body of Jesus Christ, and by our baptism, we are made His. One faith, one baptism.
[BIBLEDRB]Ephesians 4:4-6[/BIBLEDRB]
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SteveVH
Guest
No problem. It is an important and very misunderstood topic.
The Church’s position, I think, is that Christian Baptism is essentially Catholic. Protestants, or anyone, for that matter, who follow the Catholic form of Baptism (that is where it originated), are simply doing what the Church does therefore they are covered by the authority of the Church.
Really.Really?
Its not a magic formula. Of course the “Holy Ghost” is valid. It means the same thing. One is baptized into the name of God, which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Ghost) as revealed to us by Christ. That is why we do not say in the “names” of… but rather the “name” of… God is one God.
I’m happy that guanophore posted here and I’m sure he can do a much better job of answering your responses than I have. But that’s my take.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I also recommend reading Lumen Gentium. It is lengthy, but begins with the mystery of the Church, as a sign and a sacrament, and goes on from there.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
The intent of the baptism is important. To baptize with the same intent of the Church. So while LDS say the words, “Father, Son and Holy Ghost”, they do not have the same intent, that is, to baptize a person into the Life of the Holy Trinity. Communion, being a key concept. Baptism brings us into communion with the One True God of Christianity, and also to each other, all the baptized.
One Lord, one faith, one baptism. This is the communion of saints, our relationship to each other; through, in and with Jesus Christ.
One Lord, one faith, one baptism. This is the communion of saints, our relationship to each other; through, in and with Jesus Christ.
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campeador
Guest
Here is what I think you’re looking for Pete:
Excerpt from The Question of the Validity of Baptism Conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
**Difference of views: Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism
**
Summing up, we can say: The Baptism of the Catholic Church and that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differ essentially, both for what concerns faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name Baptism is conferred, and for what concerns the relationship to Christ who instituted it. As a result of all this, it is understood that the Catholic Church has to consider invalid, that is to say, cannot consider true Baptism, the rite given that name by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
It is equally necessary to underline that the decision of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is a response to a particular question regarding the Baptism of Mormons and obviously does not indicate a judgment on those who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Furthermore, Catholics and Mormons often find themselves working together on a range of problems regarding the common good of the entire human race. It can be hoped therefore that through further studies, dialogue and good will, there can be progress in reciprocal understanding and mutual respect.
Excerpt from The Question of the Validity of Baptism Conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
**Difference of views: Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism
**
Summing up, we can say: The Baptism of the Catholic Church and that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differ essentially, both for what concerns faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name Baptism is conferred, and for what concerns the relationship to Christ who instituted it. As a result of all this, it is understood that the Catholic Church has to consider invalid, that is to say, cannot consider true Baptism, the rite given that name by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
It is equally necessary to underline that the decision of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is a response to a particular question regarding the Baptism of Mormons and obviously does not indicate a judgment on those who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Furthermore, Catholics and Mormons often find themselves working together on a range of problems regarding the common good of the entire human race. It can be hoped therefore that through further studies, dialogue and good will, there can be progress in reciprocal understanding and mutual respect.
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SecretGarden
Guest
Baptism is the washing of all sin in a person’s life. Baptism is another element that unites all Christians to Christ as well as each other. I think it only makes sense for the Catholic Church to recognize baptisms from other Christian denominations provided they were done in the name of the holy trinity. The Christian church believes that one baptism is necessary for the remedial of sins. It makes no sense why previous baptised people should be required to be rebaptized Catholic when they are clearly christian.
The CCC clearly states:
The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 "Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.“82”
It is for that reason why trinitarian baptisms are valid and it’s another area unifies all Christians together provided one avoids the debates of adult vs infant baptism.
Sometimes rebaptism is necessary. For example when the proper documentation doesn’t exist to prove it, people are from a non-christian denomination or not a valid denomination or people might choose to be rebaptise because it is signifying a new life.
We need to trust our clergy to make the right decision because it’s common practice for the priest to meet with each new person potentially entering the Catholic church to decide what is the best course of action.
The CCC clearly states:
The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 "Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.“82”
It is for that reason why trinitarian baptisms are valid and it’s another area unifies all Christians together provided one avoids the debates of adult vs infant baptism.
Sometimes rebaptism is necessary. For example when the proper documentation doesn’t exist to prove it, people are from a non-christian denomination or not a valid denomination or people might choose to be rebaptise because it is signifying a new life.
We need to trust our clergy to make the right decision because it’s common practice for the priest to meet with each new person potentially entering the Catholic church to decide what is the best course of action.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
OK, since you were all so kind as to answer my original questions, let’s talk about the LDS thing. Just please don’t anyone misunderstand and think that I’m somehow offended that the Catholic church doesn’t accept LDS baptisms. I’m not! From an LDS perspective, authority
Do I understand correctly that while a non-Christian (e.g. an atheist, a Muslim, or a Hindu) can perform a Catholic baptism, but a Mormon can’t?
So if I’m ever in a situation where someone’s dying and asks for me to give them a Catholic baptism, I should say, sorry, I’m Mormon, and your clergy thinks my intentions are too off to give you a proper Catholic Baptism, but let me ask a Hare Krishna who can give you a valid Catholic baptism?
I hope the humor isn’t taken as disrespect!
Do I understand correctly that while a non-Christian (e.g. an atheist, a Muslim, or a Hindu) can perform a Catholic baptism, but a Mormon can’t?
So if I’m ever in a situation where someone’s dying and asks for me to give them a Catholic baptism, I should say, sorry, I’m Mormon, and your clergy thinks my intentions are too off to give you a proper Catholic Baptism, but let me ask a Hare Krishna who can give you a valid Catholic baptism?
I hope the humor isn’t taken as disrespect!
po18guy
Well-known member
Nothing to do at all with the Pope. The Pope is our spiritual leader and father in faith, but he is not a king. Only Christ is King. Baptisms are accepted because God wills that we be saved. They are valid because God has decreed that they are our entrance into the new and everlasting covenant. Jesus commanded baptism (Mark 16:16), which replaced the circumcision of males as entrance into the Mosaic covenant. Baptisms are valid if they are done with the intent of a Christian baptism, and are accomplished using the proper form and matter.
Intent: As the initiation into the new and everlasting covenant as a Christian.
Form: In the name of the Father (the first Person of the Holy Trinity and creator of all that exists), the Son (Jesus Christ, eternal Son of God), and the Holy Spirit/Ghost (third person of the Holy Trinity). For a baptism to be valid, and accepted by the Catholic Church, it cannot be in the Name of Jesus alone. It must be done in the Names of the three Eternal Persons of the Godhead as they are. Immersion or pouring.
Matter: Water.
Again, the Pope has nothing to do with this. Baptisms accomplished while there is no Pope are as valid as any. Baptism is a Sacrament, initiated by Jesus Christ, and preserved and perpetuated by His Church. The Church is greater than the Pope, since it comprises the earthly Body of Christ, with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) as its earthly head.
No! Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are simply two terms used in a particular language (English) that mean the exact same thing. I am guessing, from the direction of your questions, that you might be wondering why the LDS baptism is not accepted by the Catholic Church? That is because the LDS do not confess the trinitarian God, nor that Jesus is co-eternal with the two other divine persons in the Godhead.
Form, matter, and intent. It must have all three. This is why TV or movie baptisms are not valid, since they lack intent, even though the form and matter may be present.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Intent still applies. There is also the dogma re: baptism of desire. 
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Thank you, Campreador.
The statement is 100% correct that we don’t believe in Original Sin, or rather, we believe that it was done away through Jesus’ atonement, and that baptism isn’t necessary to remove it.
“No real trinity” is partly accurate – we believe that God the Father has a body, but our notion of the Godhead involves Three Persons in One God, i.e. three personages who are one in mind and purpose.
But the statement is 100% in error when it states that we don’t believe that Jesus instituted baptism. I honestly cannot figure out where that came from. But given the tenor of the rest of the article, it’s clearly a good faith mistake, and I very much appreciate the words:
The statement is 100% correct that we don’t believe in Original Sin, or rather, we believe that it was done away through Jesus’ atonement, and that baptism isn’t necessary to remove it.
“No real trinity” is partly accurate – we believe that God the Father has a body, but our notion of the Godhead involves Three Persons in One God, i.e. three personages who are one in mind and purpose.
But the statement is 100% in error when it states that we don’t believe that Jesus instituted baptism. I honestly cannot figure out where that came from. But given the tenor of the rest of the article, it’s clearly a good faith mistake, and I very much appreciate the words:
Well-said, and thank you for sharing that source.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
To me, authorizing baptism seems more the act of a spiritual leader and a father in faith, rather than that of a king. What precisely did Jesus convey to Peter with the keys to bind in heaven?
Do you see the communion ceremonies of various protestant sects valid as well?
po18guy
Well-known member
No. Any human being can.
No. You can do it, with the proper intent, form and matter. Please don’t think that our faith is so rigid and legalistic. It has its rules, but there is so much more freedom than you know.
I hope that we are dispelling rumors here.
po18guy
Well-known member
I don’t know the depth of your faith, or the degree to which you have progressed in the LDS, so please indulge me a bit here.
Jesus gave Peter the keys - what Peter then opened, no one shut. What he shut, no one opened. Reference this to Isaiah 22:22. He then gave Peter and the eleven power over sin, in the binding and loosing authority. This is the source of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession). Saint Paul wrote of this authority to forgive sin in the person of Christ in 2 Corinthians 2:10.
Baptisms are not authorized by the Catholic Church - they are recognized. God is the authority involved, but He uses humans to accomplish His will.
No. Jesus Christ appointed twelve Apostles and sent them forth with unprecedented authority. They passed that authority on to succeeding generations, via the laying on of hands (Book of Acts). Only Catholic and Orthodox Churches have valid Holy Orders (the ordained Preisthood). The Apostolic power to consecrate bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ was lost in the reformers’ separation from the Church.
Point of fact: Each Catholic and Orthodox Priest (and Bishop) has authority that was given to them in hands-on ordination that traces back to one of the twelve Apostles or to Saint Paul. This line of succession was lost to the reformers in the 16th century rebellion.
po18guy
Well-known member
Who is the King of kings and the Lord of lords? It is He Who instituted Baptism, and commanded that it be accomplished. The Church, being the mystical Body of Christ, simply carries out His commands. Revelation 17:14, 19:16
po18guy
Well-known member
As a Catholic, I find this very difficult to reconcile with the counsel of Peter, who was speaking to those who believed after Jesus accompished His atonement. If their sins were gone, there would be neither the need for baptism, nor the remission of any sins.
Acts 2:38
King James Version (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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