Why does the Church object?

[KathyH]

That makes no sense; it could mean then that Paul didn’t believe in what Jesus said so he made his own notion of it. Doesn’t seem like that at all though.

Again, that couldn’t be right, either, since then like above he’d be making his own notion apart from Christ. But we know he didn’t. So in light of that, what did Jesus mean then? It couldn’t be that Paul is saying one thing, and Jesus another. Remember, the Bible is one glorious harmony that flows.

Doesn’t make sense; now you’re assuming he made a mistake. Isn’t it that the Bible is supposed to be free from error?

The Bible is the Word of God, and its teachings are of God, but Paul calling himself father wasn’t a teaching. Now if it was a teaching, then we could only call ourselves father and only to those who were brought to the Lord by us. Using Paul’s example.

Now before Jesus told us not to call any man father, many people were called father. Jesus came here to complete the law and form a new covenant with us, and gave us some new laws, and one of them was not to call any man father. Now Paul my not have understood that meant he couldn’t even call himself father, like I said he wasn’t perfect either.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Now before Jesus told us not to call any man father, many people were called father. Jesus came here to complete the law and form a new covenant with us, and gave us some new laws, and one of them was not to call any man father. Now Paul my not have understood that meant he couldn’t even call himself father, like I said he wasn’t perfect either.

So, in writing God’s Inspired Scriptures, Paul couldn’t even get God’s teaching right?

 

[KathyH]

No. No one in this thread believes that Satan is better at what He does than what the Holy Spirit does.

But we do believe that Scripture is rife with warnings about those who come along preaching falsely and that one must test the spirit. How can one test the spirit if it is just me and the Holy Spirit? How can one really know if they are right?

I have a friend who says she was led by the Holy Spirit into the Mormon Church? Was that the Holy Spirit?

Some Church claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and say that one should never Baptize infants, others claim the opposite. Both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. Who is right? Both can’t be right and therefore BOTH CANNOT be led by the Holy Spirit contrary to their claims or feelings otherwise.

Jesus also said the following.

:bible1: Matthew 7:21 - 23

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

God Bless,
Maria

Yes that scripture is very important, because Jesus said:

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

: (Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 12:31) “And so I tell you, every one of men’s sins and blasphemies will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

 

[mercygate]

The Bible is the Word of God, and its teachings are of God, but Paul calling himself father wasn’t a teaching. Now if it was a teaching, then we could only call ourselves father and only to those who were brought to the Lord by us. Using Paul’s example.

Now before Jesus told us not to call any man father, many people were called father. Jesus came here to complete the law and form a new covenant with us, and gave us some new laws, and one of them was not to call any man father. Now Paul my not have understood that meant he couldn’t even call himself father, like I said he wasn’t perfect either.

So how is it that Jesus himself calls Abraham (a man) “Father” after he says to “call no man father”? And as for Paul, is Scripture inspired and inerrant or isn’t it? St. John addresses as “fathers” (the elders of the church). Maybe John wasn’t there the day Jesus made that claim. Or maybe Paul & John understood that admonition differently from the way you read it. In Jesus’ day, rabbinic schools – the kind that placed their own traditions ahead of the Commandments – called their leaders “father.” Could Jesus have been referring to this problematic use of the word? Maybe John and Paul understood that in the Church the fatherhood we honor in our spiritual fathers participates in and is subsumed under the Fatherhood of God. Whom should we believe? You? Or John and Paul?

Back on topic: How does this relate to the individual baptized-in-the-Spirit believer working out his own salvation according to his individual lights?

 

[KathyH]

So how is it that Jesus himself calls Abraham (a man) “Father” after he says to “call no man father”? And as for Paul, is Scripture inspired and inerrant or isn’t it? St. John addresses as “fathers” (the elders of the church). Maybe John wasn’t there the day Jesus made that claim. Or maybe Paul & John understood that admonition differently from the way you read it. In Jesus’ day, rabbinic schools – the kind that placed their own traditions ahead of the Commandments – called their leaders “father.” Could Jesus have been referring to this problematic use of the word? Maybe John and Paul understood that in the Church the fatherhood we honor in our spiritual fathers participates in and is subsumed under the Fatherhood of God. Whom should we believe? You? Or John and Paul?

Back on topic: How does this relate to the individual baptized-in-the-Spirit believer working out his own salvation according to his individual lights?

Here is what Jesus said, believe him.

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

Jesus is God and he can do anything he wants, that doesn’t give us the right to do the same.

 

[MariaG]

Yes that scripture is very important, because Jesus said:

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

Hi Kathy,

I am a great scripture lover. I quoted scripture in direct warning to yours that tells us that there will be those who claim to, among other things, cast out demons and Christ will not know them since you seem to feel that there are Christians who don’t need to belong to a group yet have “fruit”. Clearly scripture shows us that some may have what we think is fruit, yet Christ does not know them.

And now you quote scripture about being persecuted, Call no Man Father? etc. That shows what?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Here is what Jesus said, believe him.

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

Jesus is God and he can do anything he wants, that doesn’t give us the right to do the same.

And yet clearly, Paul, who was taught by the Holy Spirit, as attested to in Scripture understood differently than you do.

You think you are being led by the Holy Spirit better than Paul? You really prefer to think that Paul was mistaken than to let go of your interpretation? That is a dangerous path you walk when you think you are being led better than the apostles themselves.

 

[mercygate]

Here is what Jesus said, believe him.

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

Jesus is God and he can do anything he wants, that doesn’t give us the right to do the same.

We read the whole of Scripture, weighed in full. We do not excise micro-bits, taking single sentences, like this one, out of their matrix.

catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

Again: I am uncertain how this relates to the subject of the thread? You surely are not saying: the Holy Spirit tells me that “call no man Father” means ***what I believe it means. ***Therefore, Jesus, John and Paul in other scriptural passages may be ignored?

 

[RCCDefender]

Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.”

Kathy,
Read the last sentence again. "Anyone who is not against us is for us.” But you have obviously showed that you are against us. If you are against us then you are not for us and cannot qualify yourself to be one of the ones Christ was speaking of in this verse.

Now, regarding your conflict with calling a man father? Let me just run and get my post from another thread in which I dealt with this very subject. No sense in reinventing the wheel! BRB

 

[RCCDefender]

Mat 23

8"But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.** 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.**

Oh don’t tell me you are going to try to pull this card because it won’t work. As the Scripture Catholic site so eloquently puts it, “This is an example of “eisegesis” (imposing one’s views upon a passage) as opposed to “exegesis” (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context).”

So, tell me what are the men who founded this country called? The founding fathers. What does a birth certificate say the titles of a baby’s parents are? The mother and father. Want to carry on? Okay, what does Paul say in 1 Cor. 4:15? “Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” Well, what about John? 1 John 2:13 and 14, "I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have conquered the evil one. I write to you, children, [guess this would also make John a father] because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. More? Well, let’s listen to Stephen. Act 7:1-2 “Then the high priest asked, ‘Is this so?’ And he replied, 'My brothers and fathers, listen. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was in Mesopotamia, before he had settled in Haran” Not enough? What is it that Jesus says in a story? Oh, yeah, “And he cried out, Father Abraham, have pity on me.” (Lk 16:24). Oh, and, “honor your father and mother” (Lk. 18:20). I guess Jesus didn’t mean that you must not ever use the name “father” ever, ever. What He was really telling us in that instance was that we should not give men honor that belongs to God alone. Again, I quote Scripture Catholic, “Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.”

 

[KathyH]

Kathy,
Read the last sentence again. "Anyone who is not against us is for us.” But you have obviously showed that you are against us. If you are against us then you are not for us and cannot qualify yourself to be one of the ones Christ was speaking of in this verse.

Now, regarding your conflict with calling a man father? Let me just run and get my post from another thread in which I dealt with this very subject. No sense in reinventing the wheel! BRB

That is kind of cute, of course you are us??? I am not against the Catholic Church, my problem with the Church is; it doesn’t teach the whole Word of God.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The Bible is the Word of God, and its teachings are of God, but Paul calling himself father wasn’t a teaching. Now if it was a teaching, then we could only call ourselves father and only to those who were brought to the Lord by us. Using Paul’s example.

Now before Jesus told us not to call any man father, many people were called father. Jesus came here to complete the law and form a new covenant with us, and gave us some new laws, and one of them was not to call any man father. Now Paul my not have understood that meant he couldn’t even call himself father, like I said he wasn’t perfect either.

Nobody said that Paul was perfect but neither were the other Apostles either and if it is possible that Paul either misunderstood or got something wrong then it is possible that the other Apostles also misunderstood, or mis-quoted our Lord. After all, the Gospels weren’t written down when the events happened but many years later.

Yes that scripture is very important, because Jesus said:

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

: (Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 12:31) “And so I tell you, every one of men’s sins and blasphemies will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

Thus, some or all of the above passages that you quote could be mis-quotes or written in error.

If you are going to use the arguement that Paul’s teachings might be in error then you open the door that ANYTHING else found in the bible MIGHT be in error and you can no longer use the bible to support your position.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

That is kind of cute, of course you are us??? I am not against the Catholic Church, my problem with the Church is; it doesn’t teach the whole Word of God.

Are you for us, then?

How can the Church that brings you the Bible in its entirety not teach the whole Word of God? I’ll remind you that your bible is seven books short of being the whole Word of God.

 

[Orionthehunter]

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and **there will be only one flock, and one shepherd. **
(John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

(John 12:48) “He who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

Now there is scripture to back up that a person baptized in the Holy Spirit will know Jesus voice and follow and that the Word that Jesus spoke will be that persons judge on the last day. You notice Jesus said the Word not the Church. If a person comes to know Jesus voice, and remember Jesus said that people who belong to him, would know his voice and follow no other. Now if that voice, Jesus, has that person living the Word as it is written. Why would the Church want this person ever to live any other way?

My question to you Kathy is quite simple. There will be one flock as I bolded above. Christ is perfect and his voice is perfect. He can not and does not lie or speak untruth. But there are 40,000 different denominations (not to mention all the derivations among the individuals in each denomination) who all think they hear something different. All can’t be correct. The error of your logic is that you want to become a Church of one- you - which would allow you to follow the voice you hear.

This is not consistent to Christ desire for us all to be one. He doesn’t want us splintered as it denies the ultimate goal- We all to be united and in communion with Christ in this world and the next. Such a concept breeds division and conflict vs. unity and peace.

 

[catsrus]

I just looked at KathyH’s other posts.
She seems to be asking us questions more to be able to argue her beliefs rather than to seek actual information from us.

 

[mercygate]

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; . . . I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

(John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

(John 12:48) “He who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

Now there is scripture to back up that a person baptized in the Holy Spirit will know Jesus voice and follow and that the Word that Jesus spoke will be that persons judge on the last day. You notice Jesus said the Word not the Church. If a person comes to know Jesus voice, and remember Jesus said that people who belong to him, would know his voice and follow no other. Now if that voice, Jesus, has that person living the Word as it is written. Why would the Church want this person ever to live any other way?

Kathy. WHERE does Scripture say that knowing Jesus’ voice is dependent upon being baptized in the Holy Spirit? What DOES the Scripture say? It does NOT say that a person needs to be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to know Jesus’ voice.

Please, when you quote Scripture, quote SCRIPTURE – what it actually says and not what you think it says.

 

[jmcrae]

Isn’t a person’s salvation his or her own to be decided by them?

If you have given yourself to Jesus, then you have nothing of your own - not even your salvation. Everything belongs to Him. What this means is that we must obey Him, including His command to obey the leaders whom He has given to us (the successors of the Apostles) - He said, “Everyone who loves me will obey My commandments.”

The good fruit that comes from the Holy Spirit is obedience to Jesus Christ in all things. If we only obey in some things, then we may become good people in the eyes of the world, but we will not be good Christians. Good Christians belong to Christ’s Church (not man’s) and they obey that Church because they know that it speaks with His voice.

When Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus came to him and said, “Why are you persecuting me?” In a mysterious sense, the Church and Jesus are one and the same. To persecute the Church is to persecute Jesus - and to obey the Church is to obey Jesus. Jesus promised us that all who love Him will obey Him.

 

[Mickey]

I am not against the Catholic Church, my problem with the Church is; it doesn’t teach the whole Word of God.

It is so very sad to see someone say this. Lord have mercy.
:crying:

 

[RCCDefender]

I just looked at KathyH’s other posts.
She seems to be asking us questions more to be able to argue her beliefs rather than to seek actual information from us.

Of course she does. I have come to expect nothing less that this from most, and note I said most, of the non-Catholics who come here. Indeed, I am pleasantly surprized when someone comes to us with genuine questions and no ulterior motive behind them.

Kathy,
Cute?? Of course I consider myself in the “us” category. Jesus only established one Church. ONE. He built it on Peter, the Rock. The Catholic Church IS this Church. I belong to the Barque of Peter. Are you against us? It certainly looks that way

 

[mercygate]

That is kind of cute, of course you are us??? I am not against the Catholic Church, my problem with the Church is; it doesn’t teach the whole Word of God.

Help! Gasp! I can’t breathe!!! What is the “whole” Word of God, KathyH?