Why does the Church object?

[mercygate]

After three hundred and some years the Holy Spirit wanted a written Word assembled so he had the Church at that time assemble the writings that he considered to be the Word of God. Now any word that contradicts the written Word is not of God.

Kathy: What Church was it that assembled the writings?

And how about taking a shot at responding to post #145?

 

[ncgolf]

I think you have put yourself in a bind. You have no way to discern the truth. One reason you use the Catholic Church to compare your truth is that it is written and stated as the truth. If you asked other Christians your question all you could do is wonder why my truth received from God is diffrerent from my neighbor. My guess is if you put 10 questions on what to believe to 10 Bible Christians and asked them to answer what God has revealed to them and no one could compare notes or responses you would get 10 entirely different answers. Which one is the one speaking lies … you have no way to tell. I dont think God wants that sort of confusion. Try teaching yourself physics or molecular biology. You can’t. One must depend on some higher authority to teach and explain. For Catholics we have the Church.

 

[Sir_Knight]

After three hundred and some years the Holy Spirit wanted a written Word assembled

According to who? How do you know?

Now any word that contradicts the written Word is not of God.

That written Word also warns against private interpertations of that written Word and it also points to the church as being the fountain of truth & pillar of faith and commands us to be obedient to our church leaders.

 

[KathyH]

Ah. Oneness Pentecostal. Helps to get a better idea of where you’re coming from. Thanks.

Maybe this is another thread, but how does your tradition of “Jesus only” baptism handle the specific directive from Jesus himself to "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."?

It would be particularly interesting for us to learn how you handle this considering the enormous effort you have made to convince us that we must follow the directive not to call anybody “Father.” Since you say that Paul’s and John’s use of the word “father” doesn’t carry the weight of a direct dominical statement, how is it that you accept Peter’s word for it in Acts but not Jesus’ word in Matthew?

I suppose you are aware that baptism in the name of Jesus only is not considered valid by any Christian body (forget about Catholics on this one). So maybe we can include this in your OP question.

I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I don’t really believe God would care if I were baptized in the name of Jesus. I don’t believe he cares if we are sprinkled, submerged as long as we are baptized in God’s name. Now I am sure if what I believe about baptism is wrong and if it is important Jesus will let me know.

 

[Sir_Knight]

You say that anything that contradicts the written Word of God is not of God. Then you go on to say that it is okay to be baptized just even Jesus’s name even though the written Word of God says that we are to be baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

You just contradicted yourself.

 

[KathyH]

You say that anything that contradicts the written Word of God is not of God. Then you go on to say that it is okay to be baptized just even Jesus’s name even though the written Word of God says that we are to be baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

You just contradicted yourself.

Acts 2:38-39) “Peter answered ‘and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus
Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for al those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God will call to himself.”

Now do you see that Baptized in the name of Jesus is in the written Word also?

 

[KathyH]

The Catholic Church’s teaches are Christ’s teachings so there cannot be an untruth. We rely on this so we can discern truth from lies. If you “receive” a teaching that contradicts the truth then either God is a liar (speaks out of both sides of His mouth) or what you have receieved is not the truth. What have you witnessed? The answer to your question really only has 2 possibilites and I have listed them.

What you just stated is why very few people walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit will tell people a truth: such as, a Christian is not to harm anyone one for any reason, (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” It is in the Bible and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach this truth. The Church teaches a just war. That is not what Jesus taught. Now when people tell the Holy Spirit it is wrong, well he just lets everyone go their way.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Acts 2:38-39) “Peter answered ‘and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus
Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for al those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God will call to himself.”

Now do you see that Baptized in the name of Jesus is in the written Word also?

If you are Baptized in the name of Jesus, you are being obedient to Acts 2:38-39 but NOT to Matthew 28:19 –
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

If you are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, you are being obedient to both. It boils down to … Obeying SOME of God’s Word VS Obeying ALL of God’s Word

 

[Mickey]

Acts 2:38-39) “Peter answered ‘and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of **Jesus ****Christ **for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for al those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God will call to himself.”

Now do you see that Baptized in the name of Jesus is in the written Word also?

As you can see by the bolded parts–Peter is saying, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Sir_Knight]

What you just stated is why very few people walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit will tell people a truth: such as, a Christian is not to harm anyone one for any reason, (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” It is in the Bible and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach this truth. The Church teaches a just war. That is not what Jesus taught. Now when people tell the Holy Spirit it is wrong, well he just lets everyone go their way.

Scripture also tells us that God does not change from generation to generation and God has called His people to war many times – it is fully documented in the OT.

It also says that Jesus was ALWAYS in perfect AGREEMENT with His Father.

 

[RCCDefender]

And Yet Paul and others as recorded in Scripture did just that. So you are in fact NOT following ALL of His word, and by ignoring some scripture in favor of others you have a faulty understanding of God’s will.

I ask you again, do you believe that you are more spirit filled than those who God inspired to write scripture?

While you will not come out and say it, you are saying that the Paul and others were WRONG and taught contrary to Christ.

If that is true, although you use a CAtholic Bible, how can you trust anything that was not uttered by Christ Himself? How can you trust scripture at all if God allowed such a mistake to be recorded in His inspired word.

I warn you Kathy, pick and choose to believe that the Holy Spirit can show you what is right in Scripture and what is wrong, that you are more righteous and Spirit filled than the apostles themselves at your own peril.

It is quite clear that the apostles did not understand Christ’s words as you do. I also have enough faith in God to believe that He would never allow false teachings to be recorded in His Holy Word.

May God keep you safe while you walk this dangerous and pride filled path you have chosen. May He soon show you the danger and error of thinking you know more than His chosen apostles as recorded in His inspired word.

Maria

Amen to that!

Kathy, you said:

the Holy Spirit was given to us: (John 14:26) “but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depths. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But** we** are those who have the mind of Christ.”

Emphasis mine

First, it has already been noted, Jesus was speaking to His Apostles in the passage in John, not the general population. He was giving them the Spirit to lead them into all truth.

Second, in the passage in Corinthians, Paul is not stating that each of us is spiritual, but that they, the leaders appointed to us, have been given the Spirit to teach us. Lest you think of yourself as one of these “spiritual men” according to this passage, you should read on: 1Cor. 3:1-3

My brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual peopl, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ.I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed, you are still not able, even now, for you are still of the flesh.

You say that a person who is called “father” starts to think of himself as superior, yet no one has to call you father for you to believe you are superior. Indeed you do think you are superior to us, for you think you have gotten all the answers right and we are wrong. We should submitt to your beliefs, your interpretation of the Bible in order to be right.

How can you be sure that you are led by the Spirit? You call into question God’s word. Oh, yes you do. Is the Bible inerrant or isn’t it? When you start to pick and choose who is right and who is wrong in the Bible (i.e. you say Paul was “mistaken” by refering to himself as a father) that is a good clue that you are not being led by the Holy Spirit. I know you are going to come back and say that you didn’t say that Paul was wrong, and you are going to give some kind of excuse as to how you didn’t say Paul was wrong. NO matter how you dance around it you did. You are exhorting your own beliefs above an apostle’s own words.

 

[RCCDefender]

After three hundred and some years the Holy Spirit wanted a written Word assembled so he had the Church at that time assemble the writings that he considered to be the Word of God. Now any word that contradicts the written Word is not of God.

What Church was it that assembled the writings?? And what did the Christians up to that point do wothout a Bible to turn to? Did they just stumble about blindly or did they follow the Church’s oral teaching (in other words Tradition)?

If the Holy Spirit guided the Church to infallibly teach the early Christians, to infallibly write the books of the New Testament and to infallibly select the books that belonged in the New Testament canon, and if Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit upon them and told them the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth (Jn. 16:13) and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church (Mat. 16:18) and that He would be with them to the end of the age (Mat. 28:20) then don’t you think that the Church continued to have these things even after the selection of the canon? To say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar. To say otherwise is to say that the gates of hell did prevail against the Church. To say otherwise is to say that the Holy Spirit did not in fact guide the Church into all truth. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus left His Church unguided, contrary to what He promised. You aren’t saying that are you??

 

[Sean_Boyle]

It is in the Bible and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach this truth. The Church teaches a just war. That is not what Jesus taught. Now when people tell the Holy Spirit it is wrong, well he just lets everyone go their way.

This is the part of the bible that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach?! I’ve heard that passage read in Church and in the homily to many time to count in my life. Yet your 'blanket statement" is that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach the word of God because she doesn’t this one verse. Well she does; care to rethink you blanket statement?

Do you have children? If your children were in harms way would you protect them? By what means if necessary?

Any morally mature parent would protect their children with any means necessary, to the last drop of their own blood if necessary. Are you saying that this is wrong to protect your children from harm?

That is exactly what the men who fought in World War II did for you and I. Were they wrong?

Where in scripture does it say the the Holy Spirit lets everyone go their own way? I’ve never seen that verse. I’m sorry to label a thought and I mean no disrespect to you personally, you seem like a nice person but that is a very narcisistic idea. To think, I’m right no matter what in the eyes of God, is a very dangerious creed to live by as a practicing christian.

 

[ncgolf]

What you just stated is why very few people walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit will tell people a truth: such as, a Christian is not to harm anyone one for any reason, (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” It is in the Bible and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach this truth. The Church teaches a just war. That is not what Jesus taught. Now when people tell the Holy Spirit it is wrong, well he just lets everyone go their way.

I always interpreted that passage to be those who live and preach and teach the word of Jesus Christ. As you know that is not a fashionable thing to do in our society. You will be mocked and laughed at and who knows what else. Jesus is saying those who mock and persecute you for My sake are not your enemies. We know they are not. You love and pray for them even more. How you went from that to war is forgetting you are on the 10th floor of a building and stepping out. I hope the next time you need a policeman he brings more than hugs and kisses. Sometimes people need to be defended, justifiably, from those who would cause us bodily harm.

God defended the Jews from their enemies … most times by killing them. Are you saying God and Jesus give contradictory statements?

 

[KathyH]

I always interpreted that passage to be those who live and preach and teach the word of Jesus Christ. As you know that is not a fashionable thing to do in our society. You will be mocked and laughed at and who knows what else. Jesus is saying those who mock and persecute you for My sake are not your enemies. We know they are not. You love and pray for them even more. How you went from that to war is forgetting you are on the 10th floor of a building and stepping out. I hope the next time you need a policeman he brings more than hugs and kisses. Sometimes people need to be defended, justifiably, from those who would cause us bodily harm.

God defended the Jews from their enemies … most times by killing them. Are you saying God and Jesus give contradictory statements?

The world needs police protection, but Christians are not of the world.

 

[KathyH]

This is the part of the bible that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach?! I’ve heard that passage read in Church and in the homily to many time to count in my life. Yet your 'blanket statement" is that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach the word of God because she doesn’t this one verse. Well she does; care to rethink you blanket statement?

Do you have children? If your children were in harms way would you protect them? By what means if necessary?

Any morally mature parent would protect their children with any means necessary, to the last drop of their own blood if necessary. Are you saying that this is wrong to protect your children from harm?

That is exactly what the men who fought in World War II did for you and I. Were they wrong?

Where in scripture does it say the the Holy Spirit lets everyone go their own way? I’ve never seen that verse. I’m sorry to label a thought and I mean no disrespect to you personally, you seem like a nice person but that is a very narcisistic idea. To think, I’m right no matter what in the eyes of God, is a very dangerious creed to live by as a practicing christian.

Who do you love more, your children or God? Scripture says resist evil and conquer it with good.

(Matthew 10:37-39) “Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.”

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises,’ but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.”

 

[KathyH]

What Church was it that assembled the writings?? And what did the Christians up to that point do wothout a Bible to turn to? Did they just stumble about blindly or did they follow the Church’s oral teaching (in other words Tradition)?

If the Holy Spirit guided the Church to infallibly teach the early Christians, to infallibly write the books of the New Testament and to infallibly select the books that belonged in the New Testament canon, and if Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit upon them and told them the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth (Jn. 16:13) and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church (Mat. 16:18) and that He would be with them to the end of the age (Mat. 28:20) then don’t you think that the Church continued to have these things even after the selection of the canon? To say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar. To say otherwise is to say that the gates of hell did prevail against the Church. To say otherwise is to say that the Holy Spirit did not in fact guide the Church into all truth. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus left His Church unguided, contrary to what He promised. You aren’t saying that are you??

Do you think a church; any church has the right to change the Word of God?

 

[Mickey]

Do you think a church; any church has the right to change the Word of God?

The Catholic Church discerned and compiled the canon. The Catholic Church protects and interprets the Word of God. There have been some excellent posts here that answers your objections with love and charity. Yet you continue with accusations about “changing the Word of God”. Either you are not listening, or you do not care to hear. But I would guess that the good posters here will eventually stop responding to your repetitive diatribe of false accusations.

 

[ncgolf]

The world needs police protection, but Christians are not of the world.

Before I respond please explain your statement a little more … I dont know what to make of it.

 

[mercygate]

Do you think a church; any church has the right to change the Word of God?

KathyH, how does this address the question?

If you’re going to snipe, at least use live ammunition and aim at a real target.