Why does the Church support the welfare state?

[TimeEntrance]

The street-level drug dealers are not the problem. They are VICTIMS of a SYSTEM. They were left hanging out to dry at the bottom of the system so they make a way. It is wrong, but the ones making the speeches on TV are more wrong. The one’s lobbying for the corporation’s and banks are the real problem because they put people in situations where they have to sell drugs and then judge them as lazy or inadequate or just too stupid to make it (in their system).

So they take them from their kids when they catch them. That is after they manage to not get killed in the game.

I wonder, what would make a man risk death and prison if he cares about his family? These drug dealers are not the ones running around in brand new clothes stickin people up and shooting 14 year old witnesses.

This I have to disagree with.

#1. Most street level drug dealers are lazy people that want fast money while sitting on their butts.

#2. They are more the victims of culture in the environments and possibly (not always) the culture in their own immediate families. In other words… they have been indoctrinated in cultural messages telling them drug dealing is cool and the way to go.

#3. Usually it is the street level dealers robbing stores, pedestrians, or shooting 14 year olds and adults. Very rarely is it a drug addict.

Hey… I was assaulted and robbed by essentially young “drug dealers.” Part of being a “thug” is the idea that a real man should rob and hustle for a living. Lots of gang members rob stores and bars - some banks as well.

I also don’t think banks are the problem per se. I’ll admit banks can have some pretty unethical and predatory practices. My own bank has jacked my account with service charges for X, Y, Z more times than I can count. But I also get my money automatically deducted to the management company of my apartment to pay my monthly rent. That’s makes my life easier. I love banks for that. And banks truly help city, state, and national economies grow.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

You have never been poor or been close to any poor families. Ask me how i know.

 

[pnewton]

re-read what you posted and re-read what I posted. Either your not paying attention or just don’t want to see. You did judge

“People who sell drugs need housing… in prison”.

You totally misunderstand what judging is. Judgment, in a scriptural sense, the type we are to refrain from, is individual and eternal. Would you not agree that it is not judgmental to think that rapist and murders should do time in prison? Then it is also not judgmental to think that people who deal drugs should do time in prison.

However, we are not to get personal with each other. Either as Christians, or here at this website.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

This I have to disagree with.

#1. Most street level drug dealers are lazy people that want fast money while sitting on their butts.

#2. They are more the victims of culture in the environments and possibly (not always) the culture in their own immediate families. In other words… they have been indoctrinated in cultural messages telling them drug dealing is cool and the way to go.

#3. Usually it is the street level dealers robbing stores, pedestrians, or shooting 14 year olds and adults. Very rarely is it a drug addict.

Hey… I was assaulted and robbed by essentially young “drug dealers.” Part of being a “thug” is the idea that a real man should rob and hustle for a living. Lots of gang members rob stores and bars - some banks as well.

I also don’t think banks are the problem per se. I’ll admit banks can have some pretty unethical and predatory practices. My own bank has jacked my account with service charges for X, Y, Z more times than I can count. But I also get my money automatically deducted to the management company of my apartment to pay my monthly rent. That’s makes my life easier. I love banks for that. And banks truly help city, state, and national economies grow.

Who said gang memebers? Drug dealers sometimes rob. You have never known enough people in the street to understand what is actually going on. EVERY PERSONS SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.

BTW most people who rob for a living do it because they can’t properly do the math to sell drugs. Ask me how I know.

Edit: I’m not going to bother talking about the bankers. I simply don’t have enough time to name all the ways they are screwing us over and placing the burden of the poor on the factory workers (who willingly accept it). You are right about that culture being present you are wrong about all of the people stuck in it agreeing with it.

LAZY!? Did you just judge them so what if they are? Shouldn’t it concern you if they are? Or do you value earthly works over spiritual?

I can’t respond to this post it is almost all false and an attitude that you learned from other people.

 

[pnewton]

You have never been poor or been close to any poor families. Ask me how i know.

No. You are wrong and do not know.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

You totally misunderstand what judging is. Judgment, in a scriptural sense, the type we are to refrain from, is individual and eternal. Would you not agree that it is not judgmental to think that rapist and murders should do time in prison? Then it is also not judgmental to think that people who deal drugs should do time in prison.

However, we are not to get personal with each other. Either as Christians, or here at this website.

I used to think they should. Then I got to know the Lord.

Vengeance is HIS.
Judgment is HIS.

Protect yourself and protect others. Don’t go hog tie them and put them in a cage and force their family to pay for it.

Why do you complicate God’s word. He didn’t say not to judge eternally (we are incapable anyways). He said do not judge.

murderers should be killed in self-defense. rapists too.

God never said don’t carry a sword he said don’t live by it.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

When a crime is commited GOD SAW IT. For someone who tells the poor to just “have faith” you sure have little. Do you think our Lord will let any injustice stand regardless of our man-made laws?

 

[FaithInTheSon]

No. You are wrong and do not know.

I DO KNOW… IF you have never known a 19 year old in the situation i described (which you related to alien abductions of all things), you have never been poor or close to it. There are tons and tons and tons of them it is replayed almost every time someone is born in the city.

 

[pnewton]

I used to think they should. Then I got to know the Lord.

Vengeance is HIS.
Judgment is HIS.

God never said don’t carry a sword he said don’t live by it.

Romans 13:3

For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer

 

[TimeEntrance]

I never called you names. Quit stating falsities to try to make yourself look better. This is pride working in you again.

Poor people are incarcerated simply for being poor ALL THE TIME. Go talk to some of them wow.

I recall from a sociology class I had that our professor noted that while her family was poor growing up, she was still raised middle-class in ethics.

Her research apparently showed her and her colleagues (hired for whatever research) that the poor, middle-class, and rich typically instill different mind sets in their children.

In general:

The poor: Blame everyone and society.

The middle-class: work hard, be fair, obey authority, and play by the rules.

The rich: Never mind the rules, disregard authority, be creative.

The poor will complain all the time. Frankly, I’m listed as poor (I was raised in a middle-class home though) in the United States with a non-service connected pension of roughly $12,000 a year. In some respects I’m much better off being poor than being a lower middle-class person. I get free health care from the V.A. Hospital (with free medication - you know how expensive that is) and don’t have to worry about getting fired, or how I’ll pay bills if I’m sick for 9 consecutive days while getting paid hourly and earning just enough to make bills.

It’s best to be upper-middle-class or rich. But I think it’s better being poor than middle or lower-middle-class in the United States. The poor get a lot of free stuff but always complain.

For instance, if my friend, who according to the scripture was ready for harvest, had been locked up for selling drugs. He would have court-costs, a criminal record, and likely child support to pay and no job. What do you think he would have done when he got out?

The problem here is that he could end up selling crack to a pregnant woman that does not visibly show signs of pregnancy. Which means he could end up causing a crack baby to be born.

Bankers don’t do that. Dentist, doctors, lawyers, bankers are all professionals and often (not always) upstanding members of society. They are very productive too. I wouldn’t put petty drug dealers on par with them.

In Milwaukee you’ve had Italian/Sicilian mafia members that were lawyers and medical doctors. If anything you might put them on par with bankers etc.

 

[pnewton]

CCC #2291

The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

The Church has always taught that we must have love for the poor. This drug abuse smoke screen has always been condemned as gravely evil. There is no justification for sellin drugs, per the Catholic Church. It can be understood, but no justified.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

I recall from a sociology class I had that our professor noted that while her family was poor growing up, she was still raised middle-class in ethics.

Her research apparently showed her and her colleagues (hired for whatever research) that the poor, middle-class, and rich typically instill different mind sets in their children.

In general:

The poor: Blame everyone and society.

The middle-class: work hard, be fair, obey authority, and play by the rules.

The rich: Never mind the rules, disregard authority, be creative.

The poor will complain all the time. Frankly, I’m listed as poor (I was raised in a middle-class home though) in the United States with a non-service connected pension of roughly $12,000 a year. In some respects I’m much better off being poor than being a lower middle-class person. I get free health care from the V.A. Hospital (with free medication - you know how expensive that is) and don’t have to worry about getting fired, or how I’ll pay bills if I’m sick for 9 consecutive days while getting paid hourly and earning just enough to make bills.

It’s best to be upper-middle-class or rich. But I think it’s better being poor than middle or lower-middle-class in the United States. The poor get a lot of free stuff but always complain.

The problem here is that he could end up selling crack to a pregnant woman that does not visibly show signs of pregnancy. Which means he could end up causing a crack baby to be born.

Bankers don’t do that. Dentist, doctors, lawyers, bankers are all professionals and often (not always) upstanding members of society. They are very productive too. I wouldn’t put petty drug dealers on par with them.

In Milwaukee you’ve had Italian/Sicilian mafia members that were lawyers and medical doctors. If anything you might put them on par with bankers etc.

I never said he sold crack.

Bankers cause people to do that.

And yes, you might.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

CCC #2291

The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

The Church has always taught that we must have love for the poor. This drug abuse smoke screen has always been condemned as gravely evil. There is no justification for sellin drugs, per the Catholic Church. It can be understood, but no justified.

WHO SAID IT IS JUSTIFIED?

All i said is it is up to God’s judgment not ours. If we judge them the way we have we cause them and their families to sin MORE. Woe to the one that causes others to sin.

That statement had nothing to do with the economics of it. We know drugs cause harm. So does extreme poverty in Detroit. Your kid might get hit by a stray bullet. What would you do if you just saw your neighbors boy get hit and the only way you can get out is selling drugs? Don’t pretend to know the answer you have not lived it.

WE ARE ALL WRONG. That is the point. We cannot judge each other.

I never said it is good to sell drugs. Why did you think I implied that? I’m curious.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Who said gang memebers? Drug dealers sometimes rob. You have never known enough people in the street to understand what is actually going on. EVERY PERSONS SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.

BTW most people who rob for a living do it because they can’t properly do the math to sell drugs. Ask me how I know.

Edit: I’m not going to bother talking about the bankers. I simply don’t have enough time to name all the ways they are screwing us over and placing the burden of the poor on the factory workers (who willingly accept it). You are right about that culture being present you are wrong about all of the people stuck in it agreeing with it.

LAZY!? Did you just judge them so what if they are? Shouldn’t it concern you if they are? Or do you value earthly works over spiritual?

I can’t respond to this post it is almost all false and an attitude that you learned from other people.

Faith, I’m not going to get into a battle of “street creds” etc. At my age of 41 I’d find it stupid anyways. But more importantly it would drift the thread too far off.

Suffice it to say I know the streets pretty well from Las Vegas (lived briefly in the section known as “Naked City”) to a section of Milwaukee that produces many of the shootings, homicides, armed robberies etc. in the city.

A number of people in the Black-American side of my family were “Folks.” I was grew up being associated with Folks rather than Peoples. I also used to sell powder and crack cocaine. I’ve been involved in a manner of things involving firearms.

In Midwestern cities like Chicago and Milwaukee there is no clear demarcation line between “black middle-class neighborhoods” and “black poor neighborhoods.” Furthermore, all black middle-class people have family and friends in the ghetto.

I think your perception of the poor and crime is very much less than accurate. I have a good friend sitting in prison right now (he’s in medium and in the South but was originally placed in Federal max in Terre Haute, Indiana) for bank robbery. He knew math better than I did. But he was raised in the ghetto in a dysfunctional family and basically brought into “Folks” (Black Disciples branch) at an early age. The crew he robbed the bank with had at least one member that sold drugs, robbed banks, and both of them had a contract just signed with some label in California for rap music.

The “need” thing ceased existing a long time ago. Now it’s about having more - not about just having something.

 

[pnewton]

The poor will complain all the time. Frankly, I’m listed as poor (I was raised in a middle-class home though) in the United States with a non-service connected pension of roughly $12,000 a year. In some respects I’m much better off being poor than being a lower middle-class person.

I don’t know. I know some who are poor that are as humble and simple as can be. The poor have their temptations to be sure, even love of money. However, it is the rich that we hear today will truly have a hard time entering the Kingdom of Heaven. It kind of puts it in perspective about who is really better off. Considering, the more money one has, the more likely they are to kill themselves, and the harder it is to get into heaven, then I am grateful God has kept me where I am.

I do not complain about taxes too much. Yes, I wish we had far less government regulation, especially at the federal level. Yes, I think federal agencies are bloated to proportions that are absolutely ludicruous. But the money that actually helps those in need, I do not resent that at all.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

WOW. Once again I am not talking about gang-members.

Sets are only acceptable to protect a neighborhood has nothing to do with territory or the drug-trade. That’s why no1 wants to be down anymore.

Today being down with a set means a mob mentality get it by any means. It also means you will get snitched on eventually. It is completely off topic. Furthermore, Folks are in the suburbs what does that have to do with it.

Gang members today are in it for the money and not just to make their situation better. They want the cars clothes and girls. All hustlers do not share that sentiment.

Gang members rob and sell drugs and print money and sell girls and steal rims.

Gang members are in a whole different class.

I am talking about people who just want to make it out. I’m sure you know as I do that it is not as common nowadays but that is why we don’t make the judgments.

Not all people are doing things with good intentions.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

I don’t know. I know some who are poor that are as humble and simple as can be. The poor have their temptations to be sure, even love of money. However, it is the rich that we hear today will truly have a hard time entering the Kingdom of Heaven. It kind of puts it in perspective about who is really better off. Considering, the more money one has, the more likely they are to kill themselves, and the harder it is to get into heaven, then I am grateful God has kept me where I am.

I do not complain about taxes too much. Yes, I wish we had far less government regulation, especially at the federal level. Yes, I think federal agencies are bloated to proportions that are absolutely ludicruous. But the money that actually helps those in need, I do not resent that at all.

On a side note:When people come out to the suburbs from the city they get suicidal too. They are used to excitement and adrenaline everyday. After the glamor wears off they get depressed.
People in the city kill themselves less, in part, because they have more to live for. More lives depend on theirs.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

This I have to disagree with.

#1. Most street level drug dealers are lazy people that want fast money while sitting on their butts.

#2. They are more the victims of culture in the environments and possibly (not always) the culture in their own immediate families. In other words… they have been indoctrinated in cultural messages telling them drug dealing is cool and the way to go.

#3. Usually it is the street level dealers robbing stores, pedestrians, or shooting 14 year olds and adults. Very rarely is it a drug addict.

Hey… I was assaulted and robbed by essentially young “drug dealers.” Part of being a “thug” is the idea that a real man should rob and hustle for a living. Lots of gang members rob stores and bars - some banks as well.

I also don’t think banks are the problem per se. I’ll admit banks can have some pretty unethical and predatory practices. My own bank has jacked my account with service charges for X, Y, Z more times than I can count. But I also get my money automatically deducted to the management company of my apartment to pay my monthly rent. That’s makes my life easier. I love banks for that. And banks truly help city, state, and national economies grow.

Oh man here’s the key part. YOU LEARNED THAT ATTITUDE FROM OTHER PEOPLE. They used your situation to lead you astray. I bet when you were younger you thought the complete opposite.

How many dudes did you know that didn’t have much of a choice? Some are lazy maybe. Others see it as the only viable option. Sometimes it is the only viable option for reasons other than being stuck in the city.

Don’t feed the beast brother.

Faith in the Lord would save them from anything but we all lack faith.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Also - True Hustlers Undergoing Struggles don’t rob. Thugs rob. There is a difference.

 

[DENNYINMI]

Brazil is one of the richest nations in the world in terms of GDP. In the United States the Republicans - like a right-wing Brazilian government under U.S. backed dictatorship - could undoubtedly grow the nations GDP rather impressively. But while economic growth in terms of an increased GDP is a conditional for reducing poverty, a rising GDP in and of itself does not mean a reduction in poverty will result. Economists recognized this after just about all right-wing governments of Latin America failed to reduce poverty while their national GDP’s grew. This spawned the branch of economics called “Developmental Economics.” Being mathematically challenged I can’t do it justice with all it’s complicated algebraic and calculus formulas. But I can say that it is taught that a nation (or city) must reinvest part of its national income back into the city and its people (e.g., students and workforce). As a rule of thumb better educated populations and workforces are more productive. Of course, this also means being educated in the advanced technologies used in X, Y, Z businesses.

If simply labor is all that matters to a Catholic I invite them to glory in and boast about the Brazilian favelas (technically squatter camps). It was quite common during the 1980’s and early 1990’s for favelados to work 2 and even 3 menial jobs and for their kids to drop out of grade school to go to work just to survive. Far from a lazy poor.

Although, admittedly, many of the poor throughout Latin America make choices in how to spend their money in ways that often results in being caught up in a cycle of poverty (e.g., buying a small radio instead of buying pencils for your child for school).

The fact is that many people, perhaps the majority today, do not have the means which would enable them to take their place in an effective and humanly dignified way within a productive system in which work is truly central. They have no possibility of acquiring the basic knowledge which would enable them to express their creativity and develop their potential. They have no way of entering the network of knowledge and intercommunication which would enable them to see their qualities appreciated and utilized. Thus, if not actually exploited, they are to a great extent marginalized; economic development takes place over their heads, so to speak, when it does not actually reduce the already narrow scope of their old subsistence economies. They are unable to compete against the goods which are produced in ways which are new and which properly respond to needs, needs which they had previously been accustomed to meeting through traditional forms of organization. Allured by the dazzle of an opulence which is beyond their reach, and at the same time driven by necessity, these people crowd the cities of the Third World where they are often without cultural roots, and where they are exposed to situations of violent uncertainty, without the possibility of becoming integrated. Their dignity is not acknowledged in any real way, and sometimes there are even attempts to eliminate them from history through coercive forms of demographic control which are contrary to human dignity.

Many other people, while not completely marginalized, live in situations in which the struggle for a bare minimum is uppermost. These are situations in which the rules of the earliest period of capitalism still flourish in conditions of “ruthlessness” in no way inferior to the darkest moments of the first phase of industrialization. In other cases the land is still the central element in the economic process, but those who cultivate it are excluded from ownership and are reduced to a state of quasi-servitude.

encyclical Centesimus annus

Why not a redistribution of education?