Why doesn't God annihilate the damned?

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Well…it’s the biggest gamble of hope and faith we all make…we all hope we are good enough to escape Hell…and good enough to make it into Heaven…or hope there there IS a heaven and NOT a Hell…but no one knows one way or t’other with any certainty–only that we ALL will find out someday…

My take on Hell is that IF it exists…it reflects that which you have chosen in life…that being to have rejected and removed yourself from God by operationof your own free will. I’m not talking about the mere failure to profess a creed, make prayerful incantations to saints, know the definions of sins–venial or mortal–and avoid them, or die with an unconfessed act of (deliberate) Friday meat-eating upon your soul…etc., but to have lived life in a way that rejects charity, love, compassion, forgiveness. If those are the seeds you have sewn, what you reap is an eternity spent separated from God. That would be a torture because the prevailing power is then evil. You do not need to be hoisted onto a spit and grilled until medium rare to suffer–the spiritual despair of being spearated from goodness would be far more painful than any consuming flames.
C’mon IO, you KNOW better than that. Disciplines and rules such as Friday meat-eating are there for good reasons.

One is to teach us that a bit of self-denial is, contrary to popular opinion, not a dirty word and never hurts anyone. In fact getting into the whole Lenten fast/Friday penance routine has helped me enormously since my reversion at the beginning of the year. How can you hope to master any kind of serious inclination to other sins if you can’t even handle the minimal restriction of going a day without meat?

The second is to get us into the habit of doing things that we believe will please God simply because they please him and for no other reason. Hence the rule about going to Mass on Sundays. Reminds us that we’re here for his purposes and convenience and not just our own.

We often are too weak and silly to develop such necessary and helpful habits on our own without it becoming a serious matter if we don’t. God and the Church in their respective wisdoms know this, hence the compulsion.
 
Perhaps in this discussion it is worth considering how one incurs condemnation. It is not earned by any particular crime or sin. Not even murder. It is earned by the practice of condemnation. Jesus states over and over, in parables and in specific terms, those who condemn others are the ones who risk condemnation. Those who practice forgiveness are the ones who will recieve forgiveness.

To me the idea of hell takes on a certain amount of fairness when we realize that the only way to get there is to send someone there yourself.

Jim
 
As long as we don’t murder somone or something like that, I personally believe that like 95% of us believers are headed to purgatory, with different amounts of time for each of us in there. Some a few seconds, some maybe years… I just find it hard to die in “purest” form and I believe 5% of us are able to achieve this and get the free ticket to heaven.

Please don’t flame me, this is just a personal opinion and I’m trying to get anyone to believe this.
You are entitled to your opinion but if what you say is ture there is no purpose to life other than to kill time until we reach heaven. If that was the case God should just deposit us all in heaven in the first place.
 
Perhaps more for aesthetic reasons than for really any theological basis…I believe it will pretty much be exactly 50-50. Some theologians believed 1/3 would go to hell, another group believed it would be 2/3, a third group believed it would be almost everyone into hell, another group only a tiny amount. I believe it will be pretty much half…though again…this is ALL speculation, and for me, it is really more of an aesthetic choice.

Because then your mother might get to heaven, but your father might not. Three of your brothers might, three might not. Two of you children might get there, two might not. One twin might, the other might not. One* conjoined* twin might, one might not!

Don’t you see a certain poetic poignancy there? A certain wonderful beauty and glory for God? I do.

Remember the story of Lazarus and Dives:

It’s a beautifully poignant story about choice.
I say these theologians ideas of how many people go to hell is beyond absurd and entirely ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing poetic about people going to hell. Nothing. Zilch. It is the constant teaching of the Church that God desires all people to attain everlasting life.
 
For those who think that hell is either fictional or that none or few will go to hell I would suggest that such an opinion is not formed out of any knowledge of Scripture. Christ Himself mentions Hell and the consequence of it more than all the other times it is is mentioned in the Bible combined. Further it lacks an understanding of basic Catholic Doctrine and it also lacks any substance in reason but is rather an emotionally formed opinion from silence that has no weight as a credible opinion.
Well said and I would add that the touchstone for morality is not a murderer. If we think we do not deserve hell simply because we have not murdered or robbed a bank that contradicts the faith and reason. The measure is not a hitman or a dictator. The measure is Christ.
 
Well said and I would add that the touchstone for morality is not a murderer. If we think we do not deserve hell simply because we have not murdered or robbed a bank that contradicts the faith and reason. The measure is not a hitman or a dictator. The measure is Christ.
Agreed-the measue is whether we have rejected Christ or not. As C S Lewis said the “Gates to hell are locked form the inside”. No one accidently ends up in Hell.
 
Well said and I would add that the touchstone for morality is not a murderer. If we think we do not deserve hell simply because we have not murdered or robbed a bank that contradicts the faith and reason. The measure is not a hitman or a dictator. The measure is Christ.
For this very reason St. Thomas argues that the use of Capital Punishment is just for heretics since the public teaching and preaching of heresy has a graver effect on a person than just murder or rape.
 
Not minding that the concept of a conscious eternity spent suffering in hell contradicts the advertized “eternal life” in heaven that supposedly accompanies salvation, but…

Presuming there is a hell, and people who don’t make the cut are tossed in there to “suffer” (whatever, exactly, that means, but let’s presume it sucks) eternally. My question is,

Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people? In hell, they’re obviously doing no good to (a) themselves, (b) the people in purgatory, (c) the people in heaven, and (d) God himself. What, then, precisely, is gained by torturing people?
I do not see that anything would be gained by torturing them. There would certainly be no redemptive effect: they would not become any better. Nor would anyone else be improved by their suffering. As far as I can see, no good would result.

It is not surprising, then, that the text is less than clear in its support for the idea that such torture does occur.

A lot of the support for the idea is based on Mark 9:44/46/48, which refer to the place where ‘their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched’. It is worth noting that in all of these it is the fire which is eternal, and that shows up also in Matthew 3:12, 25:41 and Luke 3:17. The fire is eternal, but there is no mention of the souls being so.

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus says that one should not fear those who can kill the body, but rather the One who can ‘destroy both body and soul in Hell.’

In Matthew 13:30, 40, 42, the wicked who are judged are compared to weeds thrown into a furnace. Weeds are not known for surviving such treatment.

John 3:16 juxtaposes eternal life with ‘perishing’, not eternal suffering.

2 Pe 3:7 refers to the ‘destruction of ungodly men’.

Revelation 20:10 says that the devil and his servants will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, and then says that the human wicked end up in the same lake of fire, which it describes as ‘the second death’. The perpetual torment is not described as their fate, and death is a state of cessation, not continuation.

The idea that the soul survives in eternal torment contradicts God’s oft-stated belief in mercy, and all of the references, in cluding Jesus’ own words, to Hell as a place of destruction.
 
those are interesting points made above. has the church said whether the unsaved will definitely survive eternally or not? any official documents on this?
 
mmmm… i see. a catholic who now believes she’s an atheist. Mystophilus has given you an answer Helga. It is only right to reply.
 
Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people?
Because for as long as God loves us, we cannot stop existing.

Psalm 139 reminds us that even if we descend to the lowest pits of Hell (the worst kind of eternal damnation) we will still be in God’s love.
 
those are interesting points made above. has the church said whether the unsaved will definitely survive eternally or not? any official documents on this?
The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity. (De Fide)

declared at:
Fourth Lateran Council (1215)
Synod of Constant(name removed by moderator)ole (543)

derived from:
Daniel 12, 2
Wisdom 4, 19
Judith 16, 21 and 7ff
Matthew 18, 8 and 25, 41 and 25,46 and 3,12
2 Thessalonians 1, 9
Mark 9, 43 and 9, 45
Revelations 14, 19; 3 and 20, 10

Also nearly every Early Church Father comments on this truth.
 
I do not see that anything would be gained by torturing them. There would certainly be no redemptive effect: they would not become any better. Nor would anyone else be improved by their suffering. As far as I can see, no good would result.
Mystophilus,

There are actually four ends to punishment:
  • Rehabilitation
  • Defense
  • Deterrence
  • Retribution
It is true that after one dies, assuming one is in Hell, then there is no possibility of rehabilitation.

But, there are the other 3 ends to consider. “Defense” is defense from the perpetrator, but in this case, after someone has died he or she poses no more threat to others.

“Deterrence” means deterring others from committing the bad acts. The fact that the perpetrator goes to Hell, and is there eternally, definitely CAN act as a deterrent (although it often doesn’t).

“Retribution” is punishment that is due by justice. The question is, then, does God’s justice demand punishment? And if so, what kind?

I bring this point up because although it is often pointed out that those in Hell have truly chosen their destiny, we must also safeguard the principle that Hell is not just “not making it into Heaven” but also actual punishment imposed by God due to our personal sins.

I think the Church safeguards both truths in the Catechism:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves. . .To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
but also
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
I wonder, in fact, if the punishments of hell are not LESS then we would deserve, since sin is an offense of near-infinite magnitude because the one offended is Infinite.

For your consideration.
God Bless,
VC
 
The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity. (De Fide)

declared at:
Fourth Lateran Council (1215)
Synod of Constant(name removed by moderator)ole (543)

derived from:
Daniel 12, 2
Wisdom 4, 19
Judith 16, 21 and 7ff
Matthew 18, 8 and 25, 41 and 25,46 and 3,12
2 Thessalonians 1, 9
Mark 9, 43 and 9, 45
Revelations 14, 19; 3 and 20, 10

Also nearly every Early Church Father comments on this truth.
but annihilation can also be considered “eternal punishment”
I wonder, in fact, if the punishments of hell are not LESS then we would deserve, since sin is an offense of near-infinite magnitude because the one offended is Infinite.
but most sins are not intentionally meant to snub their nose at god directly. most sins in fact are when people think they are doing something good for themselves or for others. the original meaning of sin from the hebrew meant “to miss the mark”
 
but most sins are not intentionally meant to snub their nose at god directly. most sins in fact are when people think they are doing something good for themselves or for others. the original meaning of sin from the hebrew meant “to miss the mark”
I don’t know how you know what most sins are. Anyway, that is why we acknowledge the difference between mortan and venial sins.
 
I don’t know how you know what most sins are.
i never claimed to know what most sins are. if most people commited a higher degree of mortal than venial sins i think the world would be a lot more messed up than it is. and im simply basing this off of my own self and life experience. ive never lived in someone elses life so i can never be 100% certain of anyone else. im simply just doing educated guesses based on what i know of other people.
 
Haha. Battedy is a crazy but I sure did like his first post.

Totally reminds me of Quentin Terrentino(no idea how to spell his name).
 

Eternal life in Hell is eternal death - it is to be self-poisoned, whereas eternal life is health beyond our best imaginings.​

It’s not that people don’t make the cut, so much as that they refuse the Friendship of God. By our nature, which in its state without Him is sick & dying, & without Christ, this is something we all tend to do - we are alienated from Him. And this alienation is a pathological state for us to be in. We can go to Him, only according as He first comes to us. ##
Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people? In hell, they’re obviously doing no good to (a) themselves, (b) the people in purgatory, (c) the people in heaven, and (d) God himself. What, then, precisely, is gained by torturing people?

ISTM that the question relies on eternity’s being a sort of time. It’s not. Unlike time, it is without duration - there is no succession of moments in eternity, to allow us to say “that was then, this is now, that will be in the future”. Eternity involves total instantaneousness - a bit as though all time had been crushed into an infinitesimally small dot, only more so. The Big Bang can act as a metaphor for, or a picture of, eternity. God is His Eternity - it is God Who is the “heavenliness” of Heaven.​

At any rate, it’s non-temporal, & non-successive. 🙂 So the life of the Blessed “now” is all the life they have, & all they “will” have. As it is non-temporal, so is hell - damnation is not happening “now” - it is not in fact possible to talk about it, because there is in a sense nothing to talk about. And it is a state of being which is totally meaningless - God alone gives creatures meaning, and these creatures have refused Him. So they lack everything they are meant to have - meaning, purpose, integrity, joy, love, fellowship, communion, fulfilment in Christ, everything. As we are not in that state, we lack the means to describe it - it is beyond words, because words are too sane for anything so utterly mad as hell - we give it too much reality by trying to put it into words. Heaven is too real for us to describe it - it is beyond language. We are between the two, using earthly language to describe unearthly things

Damnation is not life - it’s death, or “would be” if death were a possibility. It’s not. The state of the damned is like a snapshot; or rather, a snapshot is a bit like the state of the damned. Snapshots catch one instant out of a life - they freeze one instant in a life, and there is no way, in the snapshot, of going to the past of the person whose photograph is taken, nor into the future of that person. I think damnation is like that - it is the sterile lifelessness of one single instant, which has no past to look back too, and no future. So there is no hope, and so, no hope of pardon - merely the sterile fixity of the state of sin, seen in its true colours, as the hideous thing it is. And this something that was freely chosen - people preferred the state of sin to the
friendship of Christ - so they have it. For eternity. It’s the life they wanted, or insisted on - so that is what they have.

So the comparisons one sometimes comes across, of a world-wide mountain of sand visited by a bird which every billion years removes a single grain, and of how, even after the bird had removed all the grains one would have as long an eternity to eexpect as when the bird started, are misleading, because they bring time into the issue. In fact, all comparisons fall short of the thing discussed, because hell is far worse than we can imagine - because nothing could be worse, than to lose God eternally. Conversely, to gain God for eternity is so great a blessing that nothing could begin to be compared with it - it is that blessedness which is the measure of the unblessedness of hell.

Hell is several times spoken of as Gehenna in the NT; & Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom, the old site in Jerusalem which was first used for human sacrifices, & then became the rubbish-heap for the city, where the trash was burned. Jesus compares the “place” of those who will be rejected to this valley & its smoking rubbish-heap. Which suggests that the damned are not men, but the trashy remnants of men, things that used to be human but which, having lost God, have ceased to be human, & are just “remains”, the disintegrated left-overs of being which were once human, but have fallen to pieces, & are in that state for eternity. They are no more human beings than the ashes of a burned newspaper are a newspaper - they are wreckage.

If this suggestion (which is taken from C. S. Lewis’ “The Problem of Pain”) is on the right lines, it would explain why the damned can’t repent: they are in too ruinous a state to do so; & they have no time (in a very grim sense) to do so. Damnation is the end.

If we want people, they can be found in Heaven - that is where to look for really human beings. Not in the trash-heap of Gehenna. ##
 
one guest on cathlolic answers once gave a very similar explaination like you did above about the person no longer even being a person but in a sense a thing which isnt even recognizably human
 
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