Why doesn't God destroy the devil now?

[rinnie]

Ateista, St Paul in his second Epistle to the corinthians, wrote.

OUR GOSPEL IS A MYSTERY YES, BUT IT IS ONLY A MYSTERY TO THOSE WHO ARE ON THE ROAD TO PERDITION: THOSE WHOSE UNBELIEVING MINDS HAVE BEEN BLINDED BY THE god OF THIS WORLD WORSHIPS SO THAT THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL OF CHRIST, GODS IMAGE CANNOT REACH THEM WTH THE RAYS OF ILLUMINATION. THE SAME GOD WHO BADE LIGHT SHINE OUT OF DARKNESS HAS KINDLED A LIGHT IN OUR HEARTS WHOSE SHINING IS TO MAKE KNOW HIS GLORY AS HE HAS REVEALED IN THE FEATURES OF JESUS CHRIST.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Well, I am relieved. Can you point me to the source and explicit declaration of this dogma? It would be helpful next time someone brings up the “free will defense”.

You said:
“Quote:
In the thread I proved mathematically that God could have created a world where everyone has free will, and no one abuses his free will. In other words, the possibility of evil exists, but no actuality of evil does.”

CCC:309-311 →
309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.​

Now, if God could have created a world where free will exists and no one ever commits a sin, that world would have fulfilled God’s desire that everyone should be with him heaven.

God’s desire is for PERSONS to be with Him in heaven, and NOT robots to be with Him in heaven.

You “de-person” a person when you “dis-permit” him from the capacity to sin. That turns him into a robot.

This desire is also asserted by Catholics. It would have been a win-win situation for both God and humanity.

Now, why did he not do that?

See above.

Don’t call it a “mystery”, please. A mystery is something that is a logical problem for which we don’t know the explanation. This is not a logical problem in the usual sense, it is a logical contradiction. In a formal fashion:

1. God desires everyone to be with him.

Replace “everyone” with “every person”, meaning “every being with free will”, and you’d be correct.

1. God wants everyone to have free will.

The “everyone”, now meaning “every person”, are things which NHERENTLY HAVE free will, so yours is just a restatement of “God created all persons with free will.”

1. God is able to create a world with free will and without actuality of moral evil.

God DID create a world with free will and without the actuality of moral evil.

1. In this world everyone is saved.

This is an incorrect conclusion.

By everyone you must mean “every person”, all of whom have free will with it’s inherent ability to choose to sin (thus creating evil).

Not everyone (every person) is saved in this world because some choose to sin such that they choose hell instead of God.

1. Yet, God does not do what he desires.

Why not?

He does not GET what He desires, but He does DO what He desires.

Just as God desires for me to act perfectly in all my decisions, He doesn’t need for that desire to be fulfilled, as it is contingent on MY decisions, which He will not contravene (change for His “pleasure”).

But what God DOES is to make it possible for all persons to be with Him in heaven.

There are things which are mutually exclusive, even for God. One of those things is wanting to have persons be with Him (in heaven) without creating persons.

“Persons” can choose to not be with God. The only way to absolutely guarantee that a thing be with God is for that thing to not be a person.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Yet another ateistaic scenario:

Someone, who is in the state of unrepented mortal sin suffers an accident which results in a painful death.

Analysis:

Since the person is in the state of unrepented mortal sin, he will go to hell. (Catholic dogma) Since his life ends then and there, he will not experience any “good” from his suffering - in this existence. (Obvious)

Conclusion:

The pain and suffering experienced by this person gets no reward either in this life or the next one.

The reward for this person IS received in hell, as he (the sufferer) will have one less thing “tormenting” him in his particular (personal) hell.

His “problem”, of course, is that this “comfort” is utterly overwhelmed by his eternal torment for his other “hung onto” sins, the most tormenting one of all being his final decision to reject God.

Even if his painful death would benefit others in some unspecified and unspecifyable way, it would still demean him to the position of a “tool” and that is not acceptable by you (or me).

To whom, before whom, is this person “demeaned”? Those in heaven pity him for his poor choices. He is not demeaned in their eyes, but rather “appreciated” for whatever good DID come of his pre-hell sufferings.

He is also not “demeaned” in his own eyes, as he chose hell of his own free will and knows that very very thoroughly.

He is also not “demeaned” in God’s eyes, as God sees no one in hell as less worthy of His love. They are only less accepting of His love and fully worthy of being allowed their choices (one of which is hell in this case).

Therefore God allowed pain and suffering which is not necessary to achieve some greater good. Therefore God is not benevolent.

The greater good was achieved, as the sufferer’s suffering brought about a greater good in humanity (if nothing other than a great example of why it’snot wise to waste your suffering by not choosing God when it counts).

The suffering suffered was not wasted, but necessary to affect that greater good, and not “unnecessary”.

God is therefore benevolent, meaning loving, because He never stopped loving those persons who benefited from the suffering (meaning both the sufferer and mankind), and He specifically never stopped loving the sufferer by taking away his personhood by violating his free will.

 

[ateista]

Only you could come up with something so unreal.

Dear rinnie, you give me too much credit.

Literally millions of people perish every year in accidents and disasters. Some of them are Christians, some are atheists and some are firm believers of other religions. God (if he exists) does not give special credits to his followers, the pain and misery he allows (or dispenses) does not favor Christians or heathens. God is truly an “equal opportunity” dispenser of good and bad.

If you think that every one of them (literally every one!) converts to Christianity in the last seconds of their lives - when they are in horrible pain - and every one of them repents their “mortal sins” - then you are very naive. Not to mention that explicit atheists do not even accept the concept of “sin”, much less the necessity to “repent” - so they will remain in the state of “mortal sin”. And sometimes the painful death comes far too quickly for them to even have a conscious thought, much less the elaborate conversion and begging for forgiveness.

And just one of such events is enough to prove that God allows gratuitous pain and suffering. Just one.

But you just hung yourself in the first line. How do you know the person did not repent and ask God for forgiveness. and how do you know if God gave it to him or not. You Dont. You are not God, thats why. and you want everyone to Play God or Be God to answer your questions so you can try to make God look bad, but it wont work.

I am not trying to make God “look bad”. Nothing I can ever say is as bad as reality.

We cant answer for God, he never gave us authority to judge,

That is fine. The opportunity is always there for you to say:

“We cannot explain these scenarios. We agree that they look very bad. We refuse to accept their validity because it would contradict our axiom that God is infinitely good. Our belief is blind faith in God’s benevolence, and no matter what reality seems to be, our faith will not be shaken.”

If you would say this, I would bow my head respectfully and leave you alone. I would respect your intellectually honest admission that your faith is an unfounded blind faith. But that is the result that no believer will ever admit. No matter how irrational their belief might be, they will always wish to support it as a “rational” assumption. Why is that so important for them I have no idea. After all “faith” always trumps reason - by their standards.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie
We cant answer for God, he never gave us authority to judge,

That is fine. The opportunity is always there for you to say:

“We cannot explain these scenarios. We agree that they look very bad. We refuse to accept their validity because it would contradict our axiom that God is infinitely good. Our belief is blind faith in God’s benevolence, and no matter what reality seems to be, our faith will not be shaken.”

And that WOULD be our position!

If you would say this, I would bow my head respectfully and leave you alone. I would respect your intellectually honest admission that your faith is an unfounded blind faith.

But this is where you would be wrong. If YOU were operating with intellectual honesty you’d admit that our explanations of how this “Omnipotent God who allows evil” mechanism works actually DOES WORK in answering the questions asked!

You won’t hear our explanations because you keep interjecting incorrect axioms (yours) into OUR explanation, which simply muddles our explanations in your ears.

But that is the result that no believer will ever admit. No matter how irrational their belief might be, they will always wish to support it as a “rational” assumption. Why is that so important for them I have no idea. After all “faith” always trumps reason - by their standards.

Your faith, which you defend by purposefully hearing only bits and pieces of our explanation of the “mechanism” because you keep muddying YOUR OWN MIND with axioms which YOU INTERJECT into OUR explanations, forbids AXIOMATICALLY that God exists and “shows you” ways to “prove” that.

Your demons are quite good at supplying “logic and content” to support YOUR NEGATION of God, while it supplies NOTHING for you to actually believe in, other than “all is random meaninglessness”.

But then, that despair IS the goal of the powers behind the promotion of the “atheistic mind”. You are it’s victim, not the power, by the way.

 

[ateista]

Originally Posted by ateista

Originally Posted by rinnie
We cant answer for God, he never gave us authority to judge,
That is fine. The opportunity is always there for you to say:
“We cannot explain these scenarios. We agree that they look very bad. We refuse to accept their validity because it would contradict our axiom that God is infinitely good. Our belief is blind faith in God’s benevolence, and no matter what reality seems to be, our faith will not be shaken.”​

And that WOULD be our position!

So what is your problem? As I promised, I do leave you alone. Since you asserted your irrationality, I do as I promised, and respect your position. I do not question you, I do not challenge you, I accept your irrational position.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

So what is your problem? As I promised, I do leave you alone. Since you asserted your irrationality, I do as I promised, and respect your position. I do not question you, I do not challenge you, I accept your irrational position.

When you answer the “interesting” parts of my post, then we’ll have something to talk about.

 

[CanMan86]

The devil was conquered with Jesus on the cross.

 

[ateista]

The devil was conquered with Jesus on the cross.

Conquered and destroyed are not the same.

According to your fellow Catholic believers the devil is fine and dandy, doing his evil work in the world today. They even argue that the devil’s work is necessary. They argue hard for the devil’s continued existence. They do not “play” the devil’s advocate, they “are” the “defending counsel” for the devil.

Who can understand them? I certainly cannot.

 

[rinnie]

Dear rinnie, you give me too much credit.

Literally millions of people perish every year in accidents and disasters. Some of them are Christians, some are atheists and some are firm believers of other religions. God (if he exists) does not give special credits to his followers, the pain and misery he allows (or dispenses) does not favor Christians or heathens. God is truly an “equal opportunity” dispenser of good and bad.

If you think that every one of them (literally every one!) converts to Christianity in the last seconds of their lives - when they are in horrible pain - and every one of them repents their “mortal sins” - then you are very naive. Not to mention that explicit atheists do not even accept the concept of “sin”, much less the necessity to “repent” - so they will remain in the state of “mortal sin”. And sometimes the painful death comes far too quickly for them to even have a conscious thought, much less the elaborate conversion and begging for forgiveness.

And just one of such events is enough to prove that God allows gratuitous pain and suffering. Just one.

I am not trying to make God “look bad”. Nothing I can ever say is as bad as reality.

That is fine. The opportunity is always there for you to say:

“We cannot explain these scenarios. We agree that they look very bad. We refuse to accept their validity because it would contradict our axiom that God is infinitely good. Our belief is blind faith in God’s benevolence, and no matter what reality seems to be, our faith will not be shaken.”

If you would say this, I would bow my head respectfully and leave you alone. I would respect your intellectually honest admission that your faith is an unfounded blind faith. But that is the result that no believer will ever admit. No matter how irrational their belief might be, they will always wish to support it as a “rational” assumption. Why is that so important for them I have no idea. After all “faith” always trumps reason - by their standards.

But first of all where did I say at the last minute God takes all who dies, or repents at the end, I did not say that. I said how do you know? And for anyone to think they can go against God all of their lives and then at the end so oops, so now that i see you, i guess you are real, well let me in. NO it does not work that way.

If you dont believe in God, and you keep denying him he will deny you. See you are missing the whole point of life. Remember the test, to not believe you failed. To sin and repent, thats different. But you are missing the Believe part. That is where the whole free will comes in, good and evil. devil and God. Yes I have free will to do good or bad, sometimes i pick the wrong thing, but then i repent, i am sorry and i try not to repeat the sin. But what you are saying, sin, go to confession, then sin again, go back to confession thats absurd. And that is what you do you deny Christ, so you have picked the devil. Because in the end there are only 2 people, 2 places we can go heaven or hell. There is no way you can go to Heaven and deny Christ. That is why I am saying you must ask God to help you before its too late. (but i must say you do kill me with these story’s you come up with).

 

[rinnie]

Ateista. also let me explain I talk simple, because when you talk simple you understand. I dont have to make it harder than what it is.

You yourself have said, Why does God not intervene. HE has many of times. If you could just take a 6 month break, and get a Bible you can understand, and let go of your TERMS you could see that I am not telling you lies.

Cant you see that the Bible is history repeating itself time after time. God giving people everything they need, but they still turn away from him and destroy themself. Why because time after time they turn to evil (the devil)

History shows God saving his people, but letting the Devil have the ones who turn away from God.

Look at Noah, Noah was the only good one, the rest were of the devil. they would not turn to God. So he let the devil have them. God will destroy evil, thats not what you are seeing. But there has got to be more Good people on this Earth, right now that are still praying and asking God to give us more time.

But trust me when the last righteous dies, or before that who knows it does not matter (God promised he will save his People) He will take up his people, and the rest will be left to Perish.

And how can you blame God he told you, he showed you time after time. Oh yes to you that makes him mean, whatever ever big word you would like to choose. there are many. In one sense you blame him for not destroying evil, then in another you will blame him when he does.

And dont say you dont blame him because go back Why does God let this, happen or that, starving children, sick people, murders, etc.

Because WHY the answer is easy. BECAUSE THIS WORLD KEEPS TURNING AWAY FROM GOD.

and WHY DOESNT GOD DESTROY THE DEVIL NOW. BECAUSE OF THE GOOD PEOPLE WHO ARE BEGGING HIM TO GIVE PEOPLE MORE TIME TO TURN AWAY FROM SIN SO THEY CAN BE SAVED ALSO. THATS WHY, PURE AND SIMPLE.

 

[ateista]

You yourself have said, Why does God not intervene. HE has many of times.

When was the last documented time he did? He most certainly did not intervene to stop the Holocaust, did he? Actually the Jews put God (Yahweh) on trial and convicted him for breaking his covenant with them. God did not stop the earthquakes and tsunamis which resulted in untold loss of life. Just read the news and study history.

If you could just take a 6 month break, and get a Bible you can understand, and let go of your TERMS you could see that I am not telling you lies.

I don’t think you tell me “lies”. A lie is intentional distortion of the truth. The unintentional distortion is not a lie - it is just ignorance or misconception.

The Bible has exactly as much evidentiary value for me as the Koran or the Book of Mormon would have for you - zilch. So, don’t waste your time bringing it up. It is useless.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanMan86
The devil was conquered with Jesus on the cross.

Conquered and destroyed are not the same.

That is correct!

God does NOT destroy, meaning “un-create” (dis-create). That is the WHOLE POINT in this thread!

God puts things where they decide they want to be, according to the Creators justice.

Those who (irrevocably) choose heaven, get heaven, and those who choose hell, get hell.

The irrevocable choice of hell OVERIDES the “benefits” garnered by a person’s suffering. Just as “infinity plus 1” makes the “1” rather “small”, when we choose hell those benefits gained by our suffering, which ARE given to us, are very “small” in proportion.

But, no suffering is wasted. It is just made “small” (for the person and not necessarily for “the personhood not in hell”) for the person who chooses hell instead of heaven. That is WHY it’s a bad idea to choose hell.

According to your fellow Catholic believers the devil is fine and dandy, doing his evil work in the world today.

The devil is not fine and dandy, but rather useful and disgusting.

The devil can’t DO nothing but tempt! Any actual evil produced is an act of man.

Why allow the tempting? Because that is the “problem” we’re working on in this classroom of life! If there were no “course material”, there would be no “course”, and to not supply us with a “course” after we’ve asked for a “course in the consequences of sin” God would not be a good Father (teacher).

God ALWAYS gives us what we ask for in the most wise way possible!

They even argue that the devil’s work is necessary. They argue hard for the devil’s continued existence. They do not “play” the devil’s advocate, they “are” the “defending counsel” for the devil.

Who can understand them? I certainly cannot.

You can’t understand them because you think you ARE God. You think you have the “perspective” and “experience” to claim what only God can claim, and then dismiss the claims of God as the claims of either an evil being or a nonexistent being.

An infant doesn’t understand “driving a car”. Why should we think it odd that you don’t understand God or His people?

 

[rinnie]

When was the last documented time he did? He most certainly did not intervene to stop the Holocaust, did he? Actually the Jews put God (Yahweh) on trial and convicted him for breaking his covenant with them. God did not stop the earthquakes and tsunamis which resulted in untold loss of life. Just read the news and study history.

I don’t think you tell me “lies”. A lie is intentional distortion of the truth. The unintentional distortion is not a lie - it is just ignorance or misconception.

The Bible has exactly as much evidentiary value for me as the Koran or the Book of Mormon would have for you - zilch. So, don’t waste your time bringing it up. It is useless.

Do you think maybe the reason you dont’t want to bring up the Bible is because you are afraid of some truth. That it can and will prove you wrong. That every question you have, the answer is in there and you are not ready for the answers. And actually there is some value to the Book of Mromon, and Koran, the Pope even said, they do have even if a small part, some of the truth. Again you are saying he should have stopped the Holocaust, so in able to say that you feel he is to blame, Again you blame him for everything that Man does that is evil. and yet you deny him. How could he possibly stop anything if he does not exist.

 

[rinnie]

Okay now i am going to give you the most suffering there was and ever will be in the world. And I am going to show you the good that came out of it.

Jesus Christ was crucified on the Cross. There is no suffering in this world any worse than that.

What good did it do. It took away Death, it took away our sins. So we could have everlasting life in Christ.

 

[ateista]

Do you think maybe the reason you dont’t want to bring up the Bible is because you are afraid of some truth.

Why should I be afraid? I read the Bible, I was a believer. The Bible gave me no useful explanation.

That it can and will prove you wrong. That every question you have, the answer is in there and you are not ready for the answers.

What answers?

And actually there is some value to the Book of Mromon, and Koran, the Pope even said, they do have even if a small part, some of the truth.

Ah, political correctness rises its ugly head again.

Again you are saying he should have stopped the Holocaust, so in able to say that you feel he is to blame, Again you blame him for everything that Man does that is evil. and yet you deny him. How could he possibly stop anything if he does not exist.

That is my point. If he existed and he were benevolent, he would have disregarded the “free will” of the evil people. The question is still the same: if God is benevolent, why does he always side with strong ones even if they are evil, and forsake the weak but good ones? Why is the “free will” of the strong ones “respected” and not the “free will” of the weak ones?

 

[ateista]

Okay now i am going to give you the most suffering there was and ever will be in the world. And I am going to show you the good that came out of it.

Jesus Christ was crucified on the Cross. There is no suffering in this world any worse than that.

If only that would be more than just a story…

What good did it do. It took away Death, it took away our sins. So we could have everlasting life in Christ.

People die today just as they did before your story took place. What happened to them before the crucifixion? Did they all go to hell? Or is that yet another “mystery”? There are far too many “mysteries”. Every time I ask a tough question, for which there is no reasonable answer… it is a “mystery”. Agatha Christie would be proud…

 

[rinnie]

If only that would be more than just a story…

People die today just as they did before your story took place. What happened to them before the crucifixion? Did they all go to hell? Or is that yet another “mystery”? There are far too many “mysteries”. Every time I ask a tough question, for which there is no reasonable answer… it is a “mystery”. Agatha Christie would be proud…

If you would read the book i told you about you would know the answer to that question. Yes Jesus took away death. Before Jesus there was only death. Yes the result from sin came death, Come on you have to know about Adam and Eve etc.

That was what the devil had on us, sin, and with sin came death. When Jesus died on the Cross he did go to hell, to free sinners. There is no more death, if you believe. That is how Jesus destroyed the devil the first time. This is no mystery, Jesus died for our sins, and by dying and comming back to life he destroyed death. You really and truely dont understand at all do you.

I really thought for a time you were searching, then I thought you were just a lost soul who really didnt care, then at first when you said you wanted to believe but couldnt i believed you again, then I though no. someone this intellegent could not just not know, they knew the faith but enjoyed trying to confuse people who did, and maybe just maybe find a weak soul and try to turn it away from God, make them believe your belief. But now. Now I really see you do not understand, not at all. You are too smart to make a statement like that. That before Christ people really were dead. That the devil brought death and that was it. But how could you possibly read the bible and not known that. Its easy you never really read the bible. Could not have, Oh yes you could have read the bible and then made a mockery out of Christs death and resurrection. But you really didnt know. This is from my heart I swear, I am so sorry that you didnt understand. Again please let us help you. or please read the bible.

I have the new Jerusalem Bible it was my Dads, he told me it is the easiest to read and understand Please get it. Just please try. That is all I ask get it and try. Give God a chance now. Let him show you the mystery, that i cant show you. I am not the teacher, im not that smart, I dont have the grace, But i can pray that when you read it, the grace can at least be offered to you. What in the world do you have to lose. One thing, one horrible thing the devil. And what do you have to gain one thing one beautiful thing God. Just try.

 

[ateista]

If you would read the book i told you about you would know the answer to that question. Yes Jesus took away death. Before Jesus there was only death. Yes the result from sin came death, Come on you have to know about Adam and Eve etc.

What you say is in dire contradiction to the Catholic teaching that God “cannot” destroy the “souls” of humans, therefore there was no “death” even before Jesus came. You yourself said that there are only two “outcomes”, even heaven or hell - so here you contradict yourself, too.

That was what the devil had on us, sin, and with sin came death. When Jesus died on the Cross he did go to hell, to free sinners. There is no more death, if you believe. That is how Jesus destroyed the devil the first time. This is no mystery, Jesus died for our sins, and by dying and comming back to life he destroyed death. You really and truely dont understand at all do you.

Death - nonexistence - is infinitely preferable to eternal pain and suffering.

I really thought for a time you were searching, then I thought you were just a lost soul who really didnt care, then at first when you said you wanted to believe but couldnt i believed you again, then I though no. someone this intellegent could not just not know, they knew the faith but enjoyed trying to confuse people who did, and maybe just maybe find a weak soul and try to turn it away from God, make them believe your belief. But now. Now I really see you do not understand, not at all. You are too smart to make a statement like that. That before Christ people really were dead.

You said it, not I. What I say is that we all die - pass into noexistence.

That the devil brought death and that was it. But how could you possibly read the bible and not known that. Its easy you never really read the bible. Could not have, Oh yes you could have read the bible and then made a mockery out of Christs death and resurrection. But you really didnt know. This is from my heart I swear, I am so sorry that you didnt understand. Again please let us help you. or please read the bible.

I have the new Jerusalem Bible it was my Dads, he told me it is the easiest to read and understand Please get it. Just please try. That is all I ask get it and try. Give God a chance now. Let him show you the mystery, that i cant show you. I am not the teacher, im not that smart, I dont have the grace, But i can pray that when you read it, the grace can at least be offered to you. What in the world do you have to lose. One thing, one horrible thing the devil. And what do you have to gain one thing one beautiful thing God. Just try.

I am touched by your obvious and genuine concern. But your concern does not make what you say - true.

Here is a short analysis. Suppose that God exists and he is just and merciful. The words “just” and “merciful” mean the same thing here as when you say that a human is “just” or “merciful”. In such a case God would ever “place” someone in hell, and most certainly not for a simple lack of “faith”. It is so outrageously unfair, unjust, tyrannical, narcisstic, that you cannot be right - no matter what the Bible says. Of course if God is unjust (that is: not “just” in the human meaning of the word) then all bets are off.

The Bible must be read as a human collection of stories - which it is. There is noting “divine” in it or about it.

 

[davidv]

What you say is in dire contradiction to the Catholic teaching that God “cannot” destroy the “souls” of humans, therefore there was no “death” even before Jesus came. You yourself said that there are only two “outcomes”, even heaven or hell - so here you contradict yourself, too.

I don’t think you know what death (spiritual) rinnie is speaking of. If you did, you would not call this a contradiction.

Death - nonexistence - is infinitely preferable to eternal pain and suffering.

I would say that we all lack the knowledge and understanding to make such a statement. Are you equating “death” to “nonexistence”?

You said it, not I. What I say is that we all die - pass into noexistence.

How do you know this? What evidence do you have?

I am touched by your obvious and genuine concern. But your concern does not make what you say - true.

Here is a short analysis. Suppose that God exists and he is just and merciful. The words “just” and “merciful” mean the same thing here as when you say that a human is “just” or “merciful”. In such a case God would ever “place” someone in hell, and most certainly not for a simple lack of “faith”.

Why do you continue to insist that God places anyone in hell? He does not do so.

Also, since faith is a gift we all receive, we cannot be damned for lack of it. Clearly the damned have willfully, and with full knowledge, failed to respond to that faith despite the evidence.

It is so outrageously unfair, unjust, tyrannical, narcisstic, that you cannot be right - no matter what the Bible says. Of course if God is unjust (that is: not “just” in the human meaning of the word) then all bets are off.

Since damnation is not God’s doing, only the damned’s doing, there can be nothing “unfair” attributed to God.

The Bible must be read as a human collection of stories - which it is. There is noting “divine” in it or about it.

Given your publicly proclaimed position relative to God’s existance, I will say that you are completely unqualified in making such a judgement. How do you know if something is divine or not?