Why doesn't God destroy the devil now?

[ateista]

“Faith is not something to grasp, it is a state to grow into.”

-Mohandas Gandhi

Or grow “out of”… Children believe anything, due to their lack of critical skills. Adults are supposed to grow out of this childish acceptance of claims - thought some never do. Their loss… they are at the mercy of unscrupulous “teachers” who will exploit this uncritical acceptance. A horrible, but precise example would be the fate of the people in Jonestown…

 

[Foreigner]

As some of you may know, Bill Maher has a documentary called “Religulous” coming out where I’m guessing he finds the people worst at defending their faiths and basically mocks religion (atleast thats what the trailer shows). Not planning on paying to see this movie, but I may watch it in a way so I don’t contribute financially to it.

But anyways, in the trailer, he’s asking an actor dressed as Jesus something like “Why doesn’t God just obliterate the devil now and get rid of all the evil in the world?”

The guy responds “He will.”

Bill Maher then asks “What’s he waiting for?”

What are good responses to questions like these?

The devil is presently useful to put Christians through trials of testings and temptations to prove the genuineness of their faith.

 

[jhblack]

Why is physical, mortal pain the focus of this debate? The physical sensation of pain is a reminder from the body that if you fall down a flight of stairs, you might die. Physical pain is important in understanding your mortality, and the mortality of others. Once you understand the mortality of another, compared to your own, you begin to connect the dots of “treat others as you would be” and so on.

Disclaimer: I haven’t gone through my RCIA yet, so someone catch me if I’m saying something out of line. Thanks.

When a person dies, regardless of the tag you put on them (unrepented, in agony, etc) they are brought before God in some fashion to be judged, for only He has the authority to judge and know the quality of a man’s soul. Also, in keeping with an earlier statement: we choose our destination, and when chosen, He allows.

More importantly, though, I’d like to ask again why physical pain seems to be the focal point of this debate?

 

[ateista]

Why is physical, mortal pain the focus of this debate? The physical sensation of pain is a reminder from the body that if you fall down a flight of stairs, you might die. Physical pain is important in understanding your mortality, and the mortality of others. Once you understand the mortality of another, compared to your own, you begin to connect the dots of “treat others as you would be” and so on.

Yes, sometimes physical pain has its uses, but only if you keep thinking in the “box”, if you consider our current type of existence as a “given”. Considering God’s alleged omnipotence, we can hypothesize about a different type existence.

The examples you bring up are valid - in that context. Still, not all types of pain fall into that category, I hope you agree with that. When considering pain, we all know that it is not a pleasant experience, we all try to avoid it, when possible.

Also it can be part of what we call “evil”, the intentional causing of a pain, which serves no good purpose. The general problem of “evil”, both in the moral sense, and the “natural” sense concentrates on the existence of pain, as the “buzz-word” for the unpleasant experiences.

One of the strongest arguments against Christianity is the existence of “evil”. It is intuitively obvious that God’s alleged benevolence cannot be reconciled with the existence of gratuitos pain and suffering. This is the point of this thread (and innumerable others).

Also, in keeping with an earlier statement: we choose our destination, and when chosen, He allows.

This is also highly problematic. Obviously we must act of highly incomplete information. When we “choose” we base our decisions upon that incomplete information. The basic concept of justice is that there is no full responsibility if there is no full disclosure and no full power. Thus God’s supposed “just nature” comes into question.

Moreover, how can God’s benevolence allow us to make fatal mistakes? That is also nonsensical. A loving parent, who has more information about the consequences of an action will prevent the child exercising its free will, when the parent knows that it would result in a fatal outcome. If God is like a loving “parent”, why does he not intervene?

Finally, God’s supposed “respect” for our free will (which is a dubious concept as well) should not allow the “bad guys” free will to override the free will of the intended and actual victims. Why does God always (implicitly) support the strong ones? Is their free will more “respectable”?

 

[rinnie]

Ateista actually you are wrong, Many people will tell you they have never had faith, but prayed for it, and asked God for it and had received it. You just choose to not believe them. So you are wrong you do not have to have Faith in order to receive it, But if you want it bad enough and ask for it and really want it God will give it to you. You can not fool God, you can even fool yourself, but God knows every heart and soul. But you must be sincere.

You say there is no teachings of Christ only humans, again this is not true. It is humans who teach about Christ, and thats what makes us CHRISTLIKE to try to imitate him and his teachings. If we did not have his words or teachings we would not know what to do to be like him. Again you make no sense.

You say you understand our feelings of God, you just do not share them, If you understood our feelings for God you would understand why we feel as we do, and you would not have to ask these questions. You would have no questions.

Actually your terms are something special because your terms are not to assert God, to Assert God is to join him, but still want to be recognised, while still insisting on your rights. God never took away our rights he gave us free will to choose, so we have been given our rights. But its your Terms that actually do this, your terms are My way or no way at all, But they are what you have chosen. Not God. And he did not stand in your way, and will not, you did that to yourself.

And yes Christ does give you special warnings when you make a bad choice, you know when you do something intention to hurt someone its wrong. You cant tell me you dont feel it in the pit of your stomach, ITs called a conscience a soul, which you refuse to acknowledge. But you are right if you do not feel this, then there is no Christ in you at all.

And actually I do have the choice to believe in a flying spaghetti monster (ha ha you do make me laugh, where do you come up with this) but the only difference is there is not thousands of people who have believed in a FSM and preached this for thousands of years, but there are thousand of People who swear they have seen this, Saw a Man crucified, on the Cross and then walk again. There is a big difference between Jesus Christ and a FSM. There are things in peoples lives everyday, that beg Christ to help them and he does. You cant tell me you havent heard of these things. But i can say i have never heard of a FSM doing these things. But if it did, and freely gave up things for the Love of humans you may have to beam me up.

See this is a pure example of you twisting our gospel trying to make a mockery of Christ. You just can not compare him to this. I know what you are trying to do, and i understand you claim you cant help it, but it is wrong to do this, You point is you dont see it so its not there. But people did see him, not one millions, people see his work everyday, I feel him everyday, i could tell you thousands of ways he has been in my life, but you will say IM Crazy, you want proof, i told you God will not prove himself to you if you demand it. He will prove himself day in and day out, not because you demand it, but because you have the faith and belief to know he will. That no matter what, how bad, how horrible, he will make it right, Sometimes it takes years to understand but he is never wrong. Only we are because we do not understand him, or trust him enough. FAITH if you have it, you will not question, but will get answers anyway.

 

[Q_Bee]

Ateista actually you are wrong, Many people will tell you they have never had faith, but prayed for it, and asked God for it and had received it. You just choose to not believe them. So you are wrong you do not have to have Faith in order to receive it, But if you want it bad enough and ask for it and really want it God will give it to you. You can not fool God, you can even fool yourself, but God knows every heart and soul. But you must be sincere.

You say there is no teachings of Christ only humans, again this is not true. It is humans who teach about Christ, and thats what makes us CHRISTLIKE to try to imitate him and his teachings. If we did not have his words or teachings we would not know what to do to be like him. Again you make no sense.

You say you understand our feelings of God, you just do not share them, If you understood our feelings for God you would understand why we feel as we do, and you would not have to ask these questions. You would have no questions.

Actually your terms are something special because your terms are not to assert God, to Assert God is to join him, but still want to be recognised, while still insisting on your rights. God never took away our rights he gave us free will to choose, so we have been given our rights. But its your Terms that actually do this, your terms are My way or no way at all, But they are what you have chosen. Not God. And he did not stand in your way, and will not, you did that to yourself.

And yes Christ does give you special warnings when you make a bad choice, you know when you do something intention to hurt someone its wrong. You cant tell me you dont feel it in the pit of your stomach, ITs called a conscience a soul, which you refuse to acknowledge. But you are right if you do not feel this, then there is no Christ in you at all.

And actually I do have the choice to believe in a flying spaghetti monster (ha ha you do make me laugh, where do you come up with this) but the only difference is there is not thousands of people who have believed in a FSM and preached this for thousands of years, but there are thousand of People who swear they have seen this, Saw a Man crucified, on the Cross and then walk again. There is a big difference between Jesus Christ and a FSM. There are things in peoples lives everyday, that beg Christ to help them and he does. You cant tell me you havent heard of these things. But i can say i have never heard of a FSM doing these things. But if it did, and freely gave up things for the Love of humans you may have to beam me up.

See this is a pure example of you twisting our gospel trying to make a mockery of Christ. You just can not compare him to this. I know what you are trying to do, and i understand you claim you cant help it, but it is wrong to do this, You point is you dont see it so its not there. But people did see him, not one millions, people see his work everyday, I feel him everyday, i could tell you thousands of ways he has been in my life, but you will say IM Crazy, you want proof, i told you God will not prove himself to you if you demand it. He will prove himself day in and day out, not because you demand it, but because you have the faith and belief to know he will. That no matter what, how bad, how horrible, he will make it right, Sometimes it takes years to understand but he is never wrong. Only we are because we do not understand him, or trust him enough. FAITH if you have it, you will not question, but will get answers anyway.

I find it a bit offensive to react to unbelief in the above manner since all it can do is say ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’ or ‘I’ve got somethng you don’t have’.

Is there a difference between those without faith and those with faith? Maybe somethimes we see a person of faith DOING something that demonstrates a higher way of acting in a given situation and that makes us question why they would go the extra mile. Maybe that holds up an example that makes others want to be better people and some will notice and rise to a new level.

There’s the question of Bill Maher in this thread. His venue is satire, which is meant to make others think about how they act and what they decide. He’s made some very good points: the talking snake, why God doesn’t destroy evil, etc. He gets people talkng when he gets them a little miffed over his remarks and may be doing more for faith than those who oooh so condescending cajole others with ‘religious speak’.

In another vein is the book “The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs” by Solomon Schimmel. He grew up Orthodox Jewish, but questioned its veracity in his adulthood. He has many good things to say that are helpful to those who may experience disbelief or are questioning what they should belief.

I’ll pray for those who do not have the gift of faith as well as those who bludgeon others with their ‘faith’.

 

[nuntym]

Well, there are no teachings of “Christ”, however there are teachings of humans (Christians and Catholics) and that is quite a different matter. I don’t need faith to evaluate those “teachings”. And the evaluation is negative. These teachings make no sense.

Actually, in my thinking it is the teachings that make no sense, but in the end is proven to be true, no matter how nonsensical it is, that validates a Teacher to be true.

There were a bunch of fanatic people in the ancient Roman Empire who had a tale of a Creator who was stupid enough to make a hackneyed scheme to forgive His pitiful creatures called men (whose sin was first started off by their ancestors who ate the fruit of a tree placed in easy reach of them, and which made their subsequent offspring more prone to make more offenses against the said Creator) by becoming one of the said creatures so that He can be killed in the most gruesome, humiliating way known to man at the time. And, according to these people, the point of the tale is that we should recreate this Creator’s body and blood so that people can avail of the pardon made by this sacrifice by eating and drinking this crazy Creator…after going through the inane ritual of getting wet on the head AND keeping yourself good after that (as defined by the “arbitrary” rules set forth by that Creator and His followers) AND believing all of this to be true.

That’s how much nonsense the Church’s message is. And because of that message, the Church became the greatest harbinger of change, great ideas, and morality in the entire world.

snip

And God does nothing to help them - as we can observe. He does not interfere when someone makes a bad choice, for example. No special “warning” is given.

Ah, so the conscience is a warning not “special” enough?

Nonsense. I cannot “choose” to believe in what you say, just as you cannot “choose” to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster". Beliefs are not subject to volitional decisions.

Ah, in this I agree with you. All people are bound to believe only in what they think to be true.

Yes, sometimes physical pain has its uses, but only if you keep thinking in the “box”, if you consider our current type of existence as a “given”. Considering God’s alleged omnipotence, we can hypothesize about a different type existence.

Such as?

The examples you bring up are valid - in that context. Still, not all types of pain fall into that category, I hope you agree with that. When considering pain, we all know that it is not a pleasant experience, we all try to avoid it, when possible.

Also it can be part of what we call “evil”, the intentional causing of a pain, which serves no good purpose. The general problem of “evil”, both in the moral sense, and the “natural” sense concentrates on the existence of pain, as the “buzz-word” for the unpleasant experiences.

Oh, I can think of quite a few “good” uses for intentionally inflicting pain. A slap can get a person out of hysteria for example. A kick to the groin can stop an aggressor good.

One of the strongest arguments against Christianity is the existence of “evil”. It is intuitively obvious that God’s alleged benevolence cannot be reconciled with the existence of gratuitos pain and suffering. This is the point of this thread (and innumerable others).

I agree again with you. One of the strongest arguments against Christianity is the existence of evil. And yet, it is also one of the greatest arguments FOR Christianity. For if there are people who can derive exquisite pleasure from inflicting unspeakable horrors to other people, then either God does not exist (as atheists claim) or God is not with us (as Christians claim, in the doctrine of the Fall and Original Sin).

This is also highly problematic. Obviously we must act of highly incomplete information. When we “choose” we base our decisions upon that incomplete information. The basic concept of justice is that there is no full responsibility if there is no full disclosure and no full power. Thus God’s supposed “just nature” comes into question.

Hmm, true. Which is why Christians rely on Divine Providence, and why we have an idea called Invincible ignorance.

Moreover, how can God’s benevolence allow us to make fatal mistakes? That is also nonsensical. A loving parent, who has more information about the consequences of an action will prevent the child exercising its free will, when the parent knows that it would result in a fatal outcome. If God is like a loving “parent”, why does he not intervene?

Of course, that is what you would think if death is evil. Actually, it is not. Actually, pain is not either.

Like all things in this world, only certain uses of pain and death can be evil. There are no evil things, just evil uses.

And how sure are you that God does not intervene? How many close shaves to death have you had? For me, I know I had plenty.

Finally, God’s supposed “respect” for our free will (which is a dubious concept as well) should not allow the “bad guys” free will to override the free will of the intended and actual victims. Why does God always (implicitly) support the strong ones? Is their free will more “respectable”?

I have to ask, if every evil/strong act is somehow refuted, then is free will “free” at all? And if you think the action of any creature can refute the free will of a person, then I guess you don’t know much about free will.

 

[rinnie]

Actually Queen b, I was told that if you dont have faith you can not recieve it from God. That is what Atesta has said to me, at least thats what I took it to be. He more or less said that if you dont have faith and you pray for God to somehow open your eyes is like a dog chasing his tail, you keep going around and around.

And he is wrong on that im sorry, I told him that is not true, many of people have never had faith and have told me one day they said If there is a higher power up there then find a way to show me. It didnt happen over night but then they have told me more and more God started opening doors for them to enter to understand and come to the light. But they will swear to me up and down they never had faith,. He is saying without faith it is impossible to get it. And he is wrong, All is possible with God.

I have heard Atheist who turned from not believing to being a better Christian then I could ever become. Are you going to tell me an Atheist HAD faith in God, Im sorry i disagree with you also then. MY POINT IS AND STILL IS ANYONE CAN RECEIVE FAITH FROM GOD IF THEY ARE SINCERE AND TRUELY WANT IT. GOD WILL TURN DOWN NO ONE. All you have to do is want it bad enough and summit yourself to God and if you are not willing to do that you will never receive the gift of Grace, and Faith from him. And Ateista wants it to be on his terms, and its not gonna happen, zhe wont summit, he says he wants faith, but on his terms. again its not going to happen, God tells us that himself. You are either with me or you are against me. Ateista says no, he is neither. God said No. you are either WITH me or AGAINST me. there is no neither. So who am I going to listen to ateista or God. I think you know my answer.

 

[Q_Bee]

Actually Queen b, I was told that if you dont have faith you can not recieve it from God. That is what Atesta has said to me, at least thats what I took it to be. He more or less said that if you dont have faith and you pray for God to somehow open your eyes is like a dog chasing his tail, you keep going around and around.

Oy! It sounds like ‘I’ve got something you don’t, so TOO BAD FOR YOU!’ I simply don’t get it. How does this person KNOW that for a certainty? What kind of certainty can this person have? This is exactly what Bill Maher was talking about - the utter disregard of another person by some premise devised by men.

I’d say that we can’t base our expectations on what people write on lists. That aside, if we hear of someone who says that the have not received the gift of faith we ought to simply pray for them and attempt to show them that there is hope beyond that condition. Our prayers do more than banter and platitudes. By putting faith into action through prayer there is hope that the person who has not received the gift may find it eventually. If not, then we’ve done what we can legitimately do.

Q<

(that’s a flying Q-Bee)

[/QUOTE]

 

[rinnie]

I totally agree with you, but what my whole point was and still is Faith can be given to anyone even people who were not Lucky enough to either take the seed, and make it grow, or turn away from the seed, or never had it in the first place. But its still out there, and just because someone does not have this gift, it is out there for them.

Im still not sure what you and I are disagreeing on?

 

[Q_Bee]

I totally agree with you, but what my whole point was and still is Faith can be given to anyone even people who were not Lucky enough to either take the seed, and make it grow, or turn away from the seed, or never had it in the first place. But its still out there, and just because someone does not have this gift, it is out there for them.

Im still not sure what you and I are disagreeing on?

If a person says that they never received the gift of faith in the first place, I tend to take that at face value, not tell them they are wrong and have the gift but are not using it. Sometimes Christianity is more cruel than having no faith. Huge assumptions are made that devastate people we talk to, as if we have the direct voice of God and they do not.

We need to be gentle with people and allow them to grow at the pace they grow. If they never find faith, then our prayers will speak for our intention to do the good in a loving way, without bludgeoning others with our certitude.

Q<

 

[rinnie]

Okay but heres the thing, I fill the same way as you. Cat&Dogs showed me his game. Dont get me wrong I do pray for him, i even light candles for him at church.

But heres the thing he claims, he did go to Church before, I forget. But heres the thing he probally knows more about God than you and I.

Now i said anyone who wants faith and asks God for it can have it? Do you agree with that, Okay now he says no, without Faith you cannot receive Faith, I dont agree with that.

What you need to do is read from the get go of this thread and you will understand.

But here is my main point the only true reason i play his game with him is he really does not see how bad he is hurting himself. It is one thing to discuss Religion and disagree with things, thats okay GOd understands that,its in true heart you are trying to learn. he takes eveything bad in the world and says if God does exist why does he let it be. He has to know you must have faith to understand that.

So he goes out of his way to try to turn everything around to make God look like this awful person. We tell him that suffering can be a gift, he makes us a nut. We tell him the devil brings evil God is good, he says how can God be good and let the devil do what he does.

We say God gives us free choice, well he finally had to give into that one. But he didnt want to, Like i said please go back read, then tell me if you can see what im saying. Thats why when he is wrong i must show him in his owns words why he was. But the main thing is he needs to see that this is not a joke, God isnt laughing, he cant say these things, and think in the end oh well if Gods so great ill get in then. Dont get me wrong he can choose the devil, thats his choice, and to deny God that is what he has done, You cant say i choose neither. God says no. You cant turn away from God and deny him and then say well i just dont have your faith. You cant,. If you want faith, God has put it out there for all to learn, If he truely wanted faith, he would be in church everyday, listening, learning, reading the bible. And dont tell me God would not give it to him. Thats not true, Ask and you will receive. I want him to get it right, i swear i do, I want him to get back with God, i dont want him to die denying God.

I really do care for him. Or i wouldnt waste my time,

 

[Q_Bee]

Okay but heres the thing, I fill the same way as you. Cat&Dogs showed me his game. Dont get me wrong I do pray for him, i even light candles for him at church.

But heres the thing he claims, he did go to Church before, I forget. But heres the thing he probally knows more about God than you and I.

Now i said anyone who wants faith and asks God for it can have it? Do you agree with that, Okay now he says no, without Faith you cannot receive Faith, I dont agree with that.

I’d say that neither is an absolute that can be the litmus test for all people of all times. From ‘my faith’ I assume that ‘ask and you will be give’ is true. From a perspective of non-belief, I wouldn’t probably believe that to be true, so asking for faith may garner no response. However, if I say that I have no faith, but am asking for faith, then I defeat the original premise by asking… e.g., I have faith enough to ask WHO?.. a God I don’t believe in anyway? What am I doing?.. talking to myself in a vaccuum? Duh!

But here is my main point the only true reason i play his game with him is he really does not see how bad he is hurting himself. It is one thing to discuss Religion and disagree with things, thats okay GOd understands that,its in true heart you are trying to learn. he takes eveything bad in the world and says if God does exist why does he let it be. He has to know you must have faith to understand that.

This is the stance Bart Ehrman took as he tried to decipher a belief system through asking why God allows bad things or the Hebrew Testament God is represented as having done malicious things just because s/he could. This is fundamentalist thinking. It just doesn’t fly. And, even if we find that much of scripture is allegory, myth, debate, fiction, songs, parables, etc., we might fail to see the truth behind those genres. For instance, the Tortoise and the Hare is not an historical story, yet a truth is presented in that story; so, we can say that the story is ‘true’.

So he goes out of his way to try to turn everything around to make God look like this awful person. We tell him that suffering can be a gift, he makes us a nut. We tell him the devil brings evil God is good, he says how can God be good and let the devil do what he does.

If you recognize the game, then why get caught up in it?

We say God gives us free choice, well he finally had to give into that one. But he didnt want to, Like i said please go back read, then tell me if you can see what im saying. Thats why when he is wrong i must show him in his owns words why he was.

I don’t think you ‘must’; the point is ‘You feel that you must’.

But the main thing is he needs to see that this is not a joke, God isnt laughing, he cant say these things, and think in the end oh well if Gods so great ill get in then. Dont get me wrong he can choose the devil, thats his choice, and to deny God that is what he has done, You cant say i choose neither. God says no. You cant turn away from God and deny him and then say well i just dont have your faith. You cant,. If you want faith, God has put it out there for all to learn, If he truely wanted faith, he would be in church everyday, listening, learning, reading the bible. And dont tell me God would not give it to him. Thats not true, Ask and you will receive. I want him to get it right, i swear i do, I want him to get back with God, i dont want him to die denying God.

I really do care for him. Or i wouldnt waste my time,

The only viable reason to be denied by God is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. So, I’d say that your premise might be a bit distorted. Did this person say, “Damn you, God!”? I don’t think I have to read every post in the thread to decipher the probability of a distortion in what the person may have said and what constitutes the one and only thing that can cut someone out of reception of God’s all-inclusive mercy.

Q<

 

[rinnie]

I really dont see a big difference, what is the difference to deny God, or say why does he let bad things happen if indeed he does exist, would that not be blasphemy. To speak evil of, does that not account for blasphemy. Could that not be considered profane, would that not be to defile God to say those things about him.

 

[Q_Bee]

I really dont see a big difference, what is the difference to deny God, or say why does he let bad things happen if indeed he does exist, would that not be blasphemy. To speak evil of, does that not account for blasphemy. Could that not be considered profane, would that not be to defile God to say those things about him.

To me, there’s a real difference; one intends to blaspheme God in full knowledge of God’s existance, the other is speculative, from a stance of not knowing for certain. Really, I think it is hair-splitting to try to determine what another thinks or even how God thinks about these matters. If your conscience tells you that you should not do a certain thing because you have the surity of knowlege that God is listening this is not the same as another person’s questioning from a position without confident knowledge.

This basic difference is the stuff of jihad that allows wild accusations to come into play. If we are to err, it must be to the side of caution and assuming the best of intention, not the other way around. We simply cannot fall into judging, no matter how cut and dried the premises seem to be. And… in the long run, this allows the other person time to rethink based upon our sense of mercy and kindness. A too severe judgment of what one thinks that another person thinks is a sure way to set them on edge against hearing anything we are attempting to say.

God can decide based on seeing into the person’s heart as to what is ‘profane’ as well as what we have done in true Christ-like compassion.

Q<

 

[rinnie]

Exactly you just hit the nail on the head. Christ-like compassion, And all i said is you can not go through your whole life saying these things. To say that we must pay for Gods Glory is not true. It was said God works thru internedietes, he said thats laziness, I could go on and on.

What are we to do stand by and watch someone bash our Lord, and just stand back and so oh well, or should we say this is not what we believe. And hope we can bring Christ into his life. And if we dont at least try to let this person see why this is wrong, what does that make us.

All i said and I will repeat it again is that if you want faith, and you truely want it God knows the heart, and if you really want it and ask God he will give it to you. You do not have to have faith in order to receive it. Again what is so wrong about that. I stand by that statement, and I know he is wrong. Are you going to tell me if someone had no faith and really wanted it and asked God sincerely he is going to say No. Answer that for me, My last question Yes or no.

 

[ateista]

Actually, in my thinking it is the teachings that make no sense, but in the end is proven to be true, no matter how nonsensical it is, that validates a Teacher to be true.

There were a bunch of fanatic people in the ancient Roman Empire who had a tale of a Creator who was stupid enough to make a hackneyed scheme to forgive His pitiful creatures called men (whose sin was first started off by their ancestors who ate the fruit of a tree placed in easy reach of them, and which made their subsequent offspring more prone to make more offenses against the said Creator) by becoming one of the said creatures so that He can be killed in the most gruesome, humiliating way known to man at the time. And, according to these people, the point of the tale is that we should recreate this Creator’s body and blood so that people can avail of the pardon made by this sacrifice by eating and drinking this crazy Creator…after going through the inane ritual of getting wet on the head AND keeping yourself good after that (as defined by the “arbitrary” rules set forth by that Creator and His followers) AND believing all of this to be true.

That’s how much nonsense the Church’s message is.

Oh, my friend… if I had dared to say what you did, I would be screamed at… at the very least. But, yes, it is a great summary.

And because of that message, the Church became the greatest harbinger of change, great ideas, and morality in the entire world.

Well, that is not really true, though it does have elements of truth in it. Indeed there were good things the “rule” of the Church has brought about. But the price we had to pay for it was horrible. Let’s not get into this now.

Ah, so the conscience is a warning not “special” enough?

Nope. Not all people have conscience in the first place.

And many of the so-called “mortal” sins make no sense at all for the non-Christians. I refer here to the ludicrous rules the Church tries to enforce in the matter of sexual behavior.

Ah, in this I agree with you. All people are bound to believe only in what they think to be true.

Thank you! It is so refreshing to see agreement in this important question.

Such as?

Without going into too many details, our body is made up of very vulnerable materials. If our bodies would be made of metals, we would not have to worry about slipping and breaking a bone, for example. Looking at the body from the viewpoint of a constructor, it is shoddy design coupled with lousy workmanship.

Oh, I can think of quite a few “good” uses for intentionally inflicting pain. A slap can get a person out of hysteria for example. A kick to the groin can stop an aggressor good.

Maybe. But in these instances at least there is a “desire” to get something “good” out of it.

Hmm, true. Which is why Christians rely on Divine Providence, and why we have an idea called Invincible ignorance.

Yes I am aware of this concept. But, what does it mean - in practical terms? That could fill up a whole thread on its own.

I recall the story of a native Eskimo, who has never heard of God, and lived his life according to his standards. A missionary came and told him how he should behave according to the teachings of the Church. When the Eskimo asked how God would have judged him if the missionary never came, he was told that he was safe, the “invincible ingorance” protected him. So the Eskimo said: “Then why did you come and tell me?”.

Of course, that is what you would think if death is evil. Actually, it is not. Actually, pain is not either.

Like all things in this world, only certain uses of pain and death can be evil. There are no evil things, just evil uses.

Sure. That I agree with. Mercy killing (euthanasia) is quite acceptable in my book. I would even request it under certain conditions.

And how sure are you that God does not intervene? How many close shaves to death have you had? For me, I know I had plenty.

Probably a few, I wouldn’t know. But look at all the fatalities on the roads every day of the week. Or the fatalities caused by unpredictable natural disasters, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, Earthquakes… where is the protective hand of God there?

I have to ask, if every evil/strong act is somehow refuted, then is free will “free” at all?

Sure it is free. As long as there is more than one option open… it is free. To take away some of the options will not invalidate the freedom to choose among the available ones.

And if you think the action of any creature can refute the free will of a person, then I guess you don’t know much about free will.

So you say that the free will of the victim of a gang-rape is not invalidated by the attackers? That she can “freely will” not to be raped, though physically she cannot avoid it? Is that what you meant?

If the answer is affirmative, then you just painted yourself into a very tight corner. Can you figure out what I mean?

 

[Q_Bee]

Exactly you just hit the nail on the head. Christ-like compassion, And all i said is you can not go through your whole life saying these things. To say that we must pay for Gods Glory is not true. It was said God works thru internedietes, he said thats laziness, I could go on and on.

Operative words - ‘you can not’… This is a mandate presented by you to the person in question. It might be stated as, “Maybe it is worth considering that it’s not adventageous to say…”.

What are we to do stand by and watch someone bash our Lord, and just stand back and so oh well, or should we say this is not what we believe. And hope we can bring Christ into his life. And if we dont at least try to let this person see why this is wrong, what does that make us.

How about saying something like, “My friend, I can sense that you truly believe this now, and I think I know how you feel, but suppose you discover later that you might have been mistaken. Wouldn’t it be better not to regret having been so certain that you were right?” You see, most people who practice a faith-life and fall away from practice do so because of some terrible trauma that has occurred in their lives. Many of the things they say that might sound harsh to us are coming from the profound wounds they have experienced.

All i said and I will repeat it again is that if you want faith, and you truely want it God knows the heart, and if you really want it and ask God he will give it to you. You do not have to have faith in order to receive it. Again what is so wrong about that. I stand by that statement, and I know he is wrong. Are you going to tell me if someone had no faith and really wanted it and asked God sincerely he is going to say No. Answer that for me, My last question Yes or no.

You and I may believe that to be true, but for the present, the other party is telling you directly that it hasn’t occurred FOR THEM. Why not believe him and pray for him to experience the certainty you have?

Q<

 

[rinnie]

Operative words - ‘you can not’… This is a mandate presented by you to the person in question. It might be stated as, “Maybe it is worth considering that it’s not adventageous to say…”.

How about saying something like, “My friend, I can sense that you truly believe this now, and I think I know how you feel, but suppose you discover later that you might have been mistaken. Wouldn’t it be better not to regret having been so certain that you were right?” You see, most people who practice a faith-life and fall away from practice do so because of some terrible trauma that has occurred in their lives. Many of the things they say that might sound harsh to us are coming from the profound wounds they have experienced.

You and I may believe that to be true, but for the present, the other party is telling you directly that it hasn’t occurred FOR THEM. Why not believe him and pray for him to experience the certainty you have?

Q<

Please listen to what I AM SAYING, I never said to the other Party that because they dont believe they are wrong. or because it never happend for them they are wrong. I said that you do not have to have faith to receive faith that is not true. I said if that is true how can someone who never believed in God turn around and begin to believe. They are wrong, You do not have to have faith to receive it, How can saying that be judgemental. Right is right wrong is wrong. A fact is a fact, Ateista works only on facts, what he sees. He cannot deny this FACT. What can i do to be any clearer in what i have said. How can a person who does not believe in Christ and have no faith, turn around and become a Christian. This is not possible, thats what he said you need faith to get faith, I said no he is wrong it is possible, ot happens every day.

 

[Q_Bee]

Please listen to what I AM SAYING, I never said to the other Party that because they dont believe they are wrong. or because it never happend for them they are wrong. I said that you do not have to have faith to receive faith that is not true. I said if that is true how can someone who never believed in God turn around and begin to believe. They are wrong, You do not have to have faith to receive it, How can saying that be judgemental. Right is right wrong is wrong. A fact is a fact, Ateista works only on facts, what he sees. He cannot deny this FACT. What can i do to be any clearer in what i have said. How can a person who does not believe in Christ and have no faith, turn around and become a Christian. This is not possible, thats what he said you need faith to get faith, I said no he is wrong it is possible, ot happens every day.

I heard you, then asked you to hear yourself in the way you present your statements.

Q<