Why doesn't God destroy the devil now?

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As some of you may know, Bill Maher has a documentary called “Religulous” coming out where I’m guessing he finds the people worst at defending their faiths and basically mocks religion (atleast thats what the trailer shows). Not planning on paying to see this movie, but I may watch it in a way so I don’t contribute financially to it.

But anyways, in the trailer, he’s asking an actor dressed as Jesus something like “Why doesn’t God just obliterate the devil now and get rid of all the evil in the world?”

The guy responds “He will.”

Bill Maher then asks “What’s he waiting for?”

What are good responses to questions like these?
The fact is that creation is limited to “time and space.” God is eternal, which means that He is present in all places at all times. God is as complete as complete can be. Therefore, as far as God is concerned, it’s already a “done deal.”

Imagine a timeline as a road trip and we are driving from New York to California. We met God in NY and He said that He would meet us in LA. So here we are driving somewhere inbetween, but we haven’t quite arrived. God, on the other hand, is so big that He is in both places at once.

We often think of God as being present everywhere from a spatial perspective, but we forget the chronological perspective. It’s a bit mind boggling to think of, but its another indication of how big our God is.

Hope this helps.
 
The interesting part to me is that while the Catholic "rigidifying" process EXPOSES our axioms as axioms (which we tend to state upfront AS axioms), the atheistic "rigidifying" process is INTERPRETED by the atheist as showing their axioms as non-axiomatic "reasons" contingent on elsewhat.
The thing that their “reasons” are contingent on is nearly always “I don’t know but we will know eventually”.
Actually, this point presents an ancient philosophical argument, which St. Paul address as, “At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face” (1 Corinthians 13:12). This presents an ever receeding horizon that leave all but Paul (who claims to have seen God in his vision that occurred at Damascus) not seeing clearly.

The atheist HATES having what they THINK are their “reasons” for their basic understandings shown to be axioms/dogmas! They hate “dogmas” so much that their prime dogma is that dogmas don’t exist. Then they base their non-dogmas on the dogma of non-dogmas, and are SHOCKED when we laugh at them!

The ONLY reason an atheist stops playing the round-and-round game with a non-atheist is because the exposure of their axioms AS axioms, which they simply believe (theologically) without reason to do so, is very VERY annoying and painful to them.
Driving an atheist toward the logical consequences of his belief, by exposing his axioms AS axioms, is always very disconcerting to him, and either loosens his bonds with his axiomatic beliefs, or gives him greater reason to avoid thinking about his axiomatic beliefs.
The avoidance used most often is, “I believe only what I can see!”, and then go on to tell you how unreliable our (human) sight is to prove that you’re wrong, thinking that that doesn’t completely undermine every belief that they assert.
But, since you can’t literally tie them down and MAKE them admit their contradictions, they can (and will, and do) always simply flee, like the unclean spirits we’re all so fond of talking about in the bible.
Well, there certainly are a lot of assumptions built into this scenario! You seem to be saying that you know another’s motives better than they do. What happened to ‘presumed innocent’ in all of this assgning of motives of guile?
 
I think it is part of the Nicene Creed, and hence from 325 CE, right? Is there anything wrong with it? A little more generosity from Constantine et al, and we might have had a female principle in there too.
Ah, so much ‘wrong’ in such a short sound bite.

The Trinity does not date from AD 325. The Trinity has no beginning and no end. The Trinity always was, and always will be.

And “Constantine” (bless him) had nothing to do with the formulation of "the Trinity’.

And the obligatory little jab that Christianity is sexist in ‘denying the female’. It does nothing of the sort, but you’ll find people spouting revisionist jargon and outdated radical feminist propaganda because it’s ‘politically correct’ to do so.

Thank goodness we have women like the Blessed Mother (God’s greatest creation–a WOMAN) for models, and contemporary examples like Feminists for Life. . .as well as the ‘unsung’ normal, ordinary, women who live quiet godly lives. . . whether married or single, rich or poor, black or white.
 
And “Constantine” (bless him) had nothing to do with the formulation of "the Trinity’.

And the obligatory little jab that Christianity is sexist in ‘denying the female’. It does nothing of the sort, but you’ll find people spouting revisionist jargon and outdated radical feminist propaganda because it’s ‘politically correct’ to do so.
Are you proposing that the all-male trinitarian formula is not based on the Roman Triumverate?
Thank goodness we have women like the Blessed Mother (God’s greatest creation–a WOMAN) for models, and contemporary examples like Feminists for Life. . .as well as the ‘unsung’ normal, ordinary, women who live quiet godly lives. . . whether married or single, rich or poor, black or white.
That pale blue and white Roman image of pliancy, both virgin and mother, is really something to comtemplate, especially when it is held up as the model for all women to emulate! We need never consider that Almah means “young woman”, that the scenario is a Greco-Roman style dying and rising savior figure or that the imagery was promoted at a time when various groups would not accept evangelizeation without a substitute for the divine feminine in their cultures, nevermind that a ‘semi-divine’ personage fits just perfectly with the place of women who, under the Roman legal system, could not own property or be a legal witness. The Holy Spirit/Hagia Sophia/Shekinah can become a male archetype so that Jesus is conceived entirely male and all power symbols are male. Lets disregard the Book of Wisdom and all OT indications to the contrary. So what if it’s cafeteria-style theology!
 
Just a polite suggestion: instead of phychoanalyzing the mindset of believers and atheists, why don’t we get back to the topic of this thread?

We could open other threads about the side questions. 🙂
 
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SFTor:
None of the examples I used were intended to denote something “wrong” about the Christian god, only limitation and circumscription. God has a gender: nothing wrong with it, but very much in the style of antiquity-era godhood. He gets angry: OK, just like my dad. Not very all-powerful.
So if we were to “create” a god of our own, we should make it to be the most liberal (modern) and politically correct thing we could imagine?

Again, I would agree that our understanding of God is limited.

I fail to see how getting angry makes one weak.
 
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ateista:
Well, this is a bit problematic as a starting point. What you suggest “ultimate reality” is not a “being” not even an “object”, it is an abstraction.
Isn’t this hypothesis based upon a general idea/concept (abstraction) of god?
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ateista:
Furthermore, one could argue that the “reality” is our Universe, composed of STEM (space, time, energy, matter) with all its direct and emergent attributes. That is “reality” as we know it.
Sorry. I should have been a little clearer. I was referring to an ultimate reality of gods. An ultimate reality who is beyond the Christian/Islamic/Jewish/Buddhist vision of god. One who isn’t limited to these things.
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ateista:
Sure, but why is that a problem?
I suppose it depends upon how far into this hypothesis you want to go.
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ateista:
If a question cannot be answered (in principle - now or ever) then it is a meaningless question. One example: “what resides to the north from the North Pole?”. It is a grammatically correct question, the words in it are all meaningful (by themselves) but the construct is meaningless. Such questions can be discarded as irrelevant.
Then from the standpoint of an atheist, isn’t this entire discussion meaningless? In the life of the human race, no one will ever prove or disprove the existence of God. So then why bother asking it? Following that logic, it is an irrelevant question now, because it is meaningless.
 
Then from the standpoint of an atheist, isn’t this entire discussion meaningless? In the life of the human race, no one will ever prove or disprove the existence of God. So then why bother asking it? Following that logic, it is an irrelevant question now, because it is meaningless.
Pseudo-philosophers engage in “mental masturbation” such as ‘How many angels can dance on the head of a pin’. 😉
 
Isn’t this hypothesis based upon a general idea/concept (abstraction) of god?
We need a bit of clarification. What is a “god”?
Sorry. I should have been a little clearer. I was referring to an ultimate reality of gods. An ultimate reality who is beyond the Christian/Islamic/Jewish/Buddhist vision of god. One who isn’t limited to these things.
Same question as above. What is a “god”? Especially if the Christian God is a “subset” of the generic “god”?
Then from the standpoint of an atheist, isn’t this entire discussion meaningless? In the life of the human race, no one will ever prove or disprove the existence of God. So then why bother asking it? Following that logic, it is an irrelevant question now, because it is meaningless.
Not necessarily. I do not believe in gods (where the word “god” denotes something “supernatural”), but I may be mistaken. Even in the absence of a rigorous proof, a reasonable substantiation would be sufficient to start me pondering to revise my opinion.
 
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ateista:
We need a bit of clarification. What is a “god”?
An eternal being. The uncreated creator. The source of all that is good and true. I don’t know. For the sake of the previously mentioned hypothesis this god is a being of some sort. However, this being is still an abstract idea (for the sake of this hypothesis), which is the point that I was trying to get to.
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ateista:
Especially if the Christian God is a “subset” of the generic “god”?
Only for the sake of this hypothesis.
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ateista:
Even in the absence of a rigorous proof, a reasonable substantiation would be sufficient to start me pondering to revise my opinion.
What better proof is there than if God has revealed Himself to humans already?

Respectfully, Schnitz
 
Ah, so much ‘wrong’ in such a short sound bite.

The Trinity does not date from AD 325. The Trinity has no beginning and no end. The Trinity always was, and always will be.

And “Constantine” (bless him) had nothing to do with the formulation of "the Trinity’.

And the obligatory little jab that Christianity is sexist in ‘denying the female’. It does nothing of the sort, but you’ll find people spouting revisionist jargon and outdated radical feminist propaganda because it’s ‘politically correct’ to do so.

Thank goodness we have women like the Blessed Mother (God’s greatest creation–a WOMAN) for models, and contemporary examples like Feminists for Life. . .as well as the ‘unsung’ normal, ordinary, women who live quiet godly lives. . . whether married or single, rich or poor, black or white.
Hello Tantum:

Your assertion that “the Trinity " always was” is contradicted by the facts. And Constantine had plenty to do with its introduction to Western Christianity. (It has no place in Orthodox or Coptic Christianity.)

And this would be because the only direct references to the Holy Trinity is only found in Latin translations in the NT, and are nowhere to be found in Greek, and thereby earlier, versions of the NT?

So women are fully appreciated and valued in the Catholic Church? Really? Can they teach? Can they be priests? Bishops? Cardinals? Pope?

And lastly, is it important that they live not only godly lives, but “quiet” godly lives?

Best,

Tor
 
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SFTor:
Your assertion that “the Trinity " always was” is contradicted by the facts. And Constantine had plenty to do with its introduction to Western Christianity.
The Trinity has always been in existence. There is also plenty of evidence out there supporting this. This link quotes Church Fathers, Popes, Saints, etc. almost all of whom wrote about the doctrine of the Trinity before the year A.D. 325.
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SFTor:
So women are fully appreciated and valued in the Catholic Church? Really? Can they teach? Can they be priests? Bishops? Cardinals? Pope?
Yes, they are. They can teach. In fact, many catechists are females. Simply because they cannot receive Holy Orders doesn’t mean that they aren’t treated equally. Men can’t become nuns, can they? No, of course not. Why? Because men fulfill certain roles that are for men, just as women fulfill certain roles that are for women. To say that they are the same is a slap to both sexes.
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SFTor:
And lastly, is it important that they live not only godly lives, but “quiet” godly lives?
You are most certainly reading into this one. It is taken completely out of context. Tantum ergo is simply describing those holy women who we never hear about (hence the word “quiet”) who lead simple, ordinary lives. The same could be said about men.
 
Hello Tantum:

Your assertion that “the Trinity " always was” is contradicted by the facts. And Constantine had plenty to do with its introduction to Western Christianity. (It has no place in Orthodox or Coptic Christianity.)

And this would be because the only direct references to the Holy Trinity is only found in Latin translations in the NT, and are nowhere to be found in Greek, and thereby earlier, versions of the NT?

So women are fully appreciated and valued in the Catholic Church? Really? Can they teach? Can they be priests? Bishops? Cardinals? Pope?

And lastly, is it important that they live not only godly lives, but “quiet” godly lives?

Best,

Tor
It might be worth noting that 82+% of the work all of the ministry that is carried out by the church is performed by women. The other 17+% of the work of ministry, which is performed by men, includes the entire clergy and the lay men. Given that only clergy actually have a voice in the church, it is a pretty nice system for the men.

When we speak of ‘quiet, godly lives’, we might want to note that there are monastic men under the vow of silence. Let us hope they they are not also making policy that promotes the silent pliancy of women as well.
 
I hope my answers is not TOO …

27 Pages , actually , 25 pages to read , is bit too much (sorry) !!
Here is the best response: “For the very same reason that the good guys never kill the bad ones in the comic books… if they did, the show would stop. And there is no business like show business!”
On thisone I fully agree !!

The Evil That Men Do !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), september 17, 2008
 
Q Bee:
When we speak of ‘quiet, godly lives’, we might want to note that there are monastic men under the vow of silence. Let us hope they they are not also making policy that promotes the silent pliancy of women as well.
What is this supposed to mean?:confused:
 
What is this supposed to mean?:confused:
Dear Schnitz,

Please don’t panic; there’s no ultra-evil in the statement. I’m simply referring to mysogeny and the misuse of such material as the Pauline letters by the confusion of those genuine Pauline thoughts with deutero-Pauline letters in order to insert a precedent in scripture.

Scholars are convinced that 1 Corinthians is a genuine epistle of Paul; however, 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 is known to be an insertion into the text. This can be noted by recognizing that those verses interrupt the text and spoil the train of thought, which by their removal, vs 37 links back beautifully with 33a. In addition, the vocabulary of 34-36 is noteably non-Pauline. The inserted verses are also in contradiction with 11:2. So, speaking of the topic of this thread, some demonic influence has crept into otherwise sacred text.

The other citation that is often used against women is 1 Timothy 2:8-15. This epistle, written about 100 CE, is called a deutero-Pauline epistle because it was penned by a later generation or a disciple of Paul, but attributed to Paul.

Paul, writes, “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners; they are prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me” (Romans 16:7). This “Junia” is obviously a woman apostle, though the church tried without success to change the text to make it appear to be a man by changing the name to read “Junias” in many of its translations. But, a thorough search of Greco-Roman names turns up no name “Junias”, but shows Junia to be a common name.

At any rate, epistles are not Gospels. They were written to specific people under specific circumstances in the early church. Certainly, we cannot take instructions from that time period and use them whole-cloth under varying conditions at a much later time. And even if one were to think that their entire message should apply, let us consider the declination of the various types of scripture; we do not stand for a reading from the Hebrew Testament nor for the Epistle reading, but only for the Gospel. Certainly, this shows the weight of importance we place upon the Gospels over other biblical literary genres.

If there is to be a demand for silence, let it be upon those who misuse power and rhetoric in an attempt to subjugate half of the human race. Jesus was not a “maculinist”. He broke with tradition to talk with women openly in public, his mission was funded by women, he had them come along on missionary journeys, and he chose a woman to be first witness to the resurrection. Thus the first apostles were Photini, the Samaritan Woman at the Well who converted her whole town, and Mary Magdalene, who accompanied him throughout the mission, stood at the foot of the cross, and witnessed to the others.

So, to say that Jesus only chose men is ridiculous.

OK, getting down off my soapbox… all’s well with the world (except where mysogeny blunders into foot-in-mouth), and of course, as far as I can tell, that not about you).
 
Yes, they are. They can teach. In fact, many catechists are females. Simply because they cannot receive Holy Orders doesn’t mean that they aren’t treated equally.
Hogwash!
Men can’t become nuns, can they? No, of course not. Why? Because men fulfill certain roles that are for men, just as women fulfill certain roles that are for women. To say that they are the same is a slap to both sexes.
You response is a nonsequitor. There’s no comparison between Holy Orders and vowed religious of other stripes since one is a sacrament and the other is not. What we can honestly say is that there are seven sacrament available to men, but only six available to women. What has ‘role-playing’ got to do with anything? Assigning roles is the prerogative of men only because they are physically stronger and can force their wills upon those who are physically weaker. Do you suppose that holy chrism would slough off a woman’s hands like detritus? Don’t you think Jesus’ mother was just as much a priest as any mortal could be? The only sex that feels they would be slapped is the good-ole-boys-club that doesn’t want skirts in their boardroom.

And, by the way, both genders can be parents, so please don’t go into the tripe about body functions. There’s nothing more insulting or ridiculous than the absurd notion that reproductive issues enter into the equation. The only reason for that sort of argument is if Jewish ritual purity laws have something to do with Christianity.
 
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