Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[fhansen]

But some say if God is all good and all knowing, then he could figure a way around sending people to hell. We know that people are going to hell…7 billion people on earth…they can’t all be going to heaven.

So the very hard question is, in spite of free will and grace and all the other good things, why can’t God figure a way around all of this so all go to heaven?

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

While it doesn’t resolve the matter entirely, I’ve always liked the way the following experience of a 13th century British visionary, Julian of Norwich, who’s quoted in the catechism, asks us to place our trust in God. As there were so many people dying around her during the Black Plague, she had a huge burden for their eternal fate, and she prayed earnestly to gain understanding. Among other experiences that she was given, or “shewn”, using her parlance, she received a locution. God told her, in simple, matter of fact terms, this simple truth: **“All shall be well and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.” **

Without knowing the specifics, she was profoundly assured by this that He’ll work it out in such a way that none will doubt or be dissatisfied that the the right thing has been done- that His goodness and justice and love have prevailed.

 

[fred_conty]

I think God is more generous than we give Him credit for. People only go to Hell if they want to reject totally any Graces from God. You have to be a person who grows into such a state of hatred to be in a Hell. Your question is not what God could have done but it needs to be more what we could have done. It is to my understanding that God has given us incredible powers. I am talking about the Church here. We have the power says Jesus to trample over scorpions and demons. The problem today is we do not use that power in the way the Lord wants us to. Yes God can do it but it must be channeled through us. God has given us this responsibility. If the people in the Church were utilizing that power everyday this world will be converted overnight. The problem is we as Christians at least the majority of us are not understanding what we are called to do. This is what limits God. It is really us who limits Him. If we only would learn and study from the saints for it is in these people that God’s love and power is unleashed into the world. We need to act more the saint who can unleash this God into the world. God has made Himself vulnerable. He wants us to empower Him and by doing this He makes us into saints. There would have been no saints if God became the nurse maid to everyone. We would have been worse of.

That is very true. However a person who doesn’t share your trust in God would say to you, “your God is powerless since he can’t find a way to save everyone.”

Now the answer that we should trust in God would not satisfy this question since, even after trust, why dosen’t God show his power and MAKE everyone go to heaven in a way that would not violate any laws. What is the answer to that? Or why isn’t there a satisfactory answer?

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[fred_conty]

While it doesn’t resolve the matter entirely, I’ve always liked the way the following experience of a 13th century British visionary, Julian of Norwich, who’s quoted in the catechism, asks us to place our trust in God. As there were so many people dying around her during the Black Plague, she had a huge burden for their eternal fate, and she prayed earnestly to gain understanding. Among other experiences that she was given, or “shewn”, using her parlance, she received a locution. God told her, in simple, matter of fact terms, this simple truth: **“All shall be well and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.” **

Without knowing the specifics, she was profoundly assured by this that He’ll work it out in such a way that none will doubt or be dissatisfied that the the right thing has been done- that His goodness and justice and love have prevailed.

That is a good insight. And from looking at how much Jesus sacrificed himself for the love of us, I think everything will be worked out as best as it can.

But then it is one thing to believe this and quite another how to explain it to the doubters.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Tom_Baum]

May be God cannot do the impossible. Perhaps he needs our yes. You can’t force someone to say yes. You need their consent just like the one the Holy Mother had given, the Holy Angels and from us as well.

Of course, than again when Jesus and the Apostles were talking, the Apostles asked something to the effect, “Who can be saved?” and Jesus responded, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE”.

Maybe God-Incarnate was trying to get something thru to us there!

 

[Tom_Baum]

The church teaches that God can use evil to bring about an even greater good. But I’m not sure that we can second-guess or predict how that might work itself out, if we can say that some people must go to hell in order for others to attain heaven, for example. A similar question might be, “Why did God create at all-or create beings with free will, at least-if evil would result?” Either way we do have to consider the importance of free will in this. God simply doesn’t create anyone who is destined by Him for hell.

You wrote, “God simply doesn’t create anyone who is destined by Him for hell”

If one believes that hell is forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever… and that God is Omniscient and that anyone at all goes to the “forever hell” than wouldn’t you say that God KNEW that about that person before God created that person?

How else would you phrase it?

Something to think about:

Jesus is reportedly to have taken ALL of the SINS of ALL upon Himself on the cross.

Some say that when one of the creeds say that “Jesus decended into hell”, or words to that effect, that it doesn’t mean “hell” but it means the “abode of the good dead”.

I disagree.

There was more than the physical going on at the cross.

 

[fhansen]

You wrote, “God simply doesn’t create anyone who is destined by Him for hell”

If one believes that hell is forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever… and that God is Omniscient and that anyone at all goes to the “forever hell” than wouldn’t you say that God KNEW that about that person before God created that person?

How else would you phrase it?

Something to think about:

Jesus is reportedly to have taken ALL of the SINS of ALL upon Himself on the cross.

Some say that when one of the creeds say that “Jesus decended into hell”, or words to that effect, that it doesn’t mean “hell” but it means the “abode of the good dead”.

I disagree.

There was more than the physical going on at the cross.

The Church simply teaches that God knew evil would result from the the abuse of free will, but that He doesn’t will or cause that evil. I don’t think we can have it both ways. He either creates and grants free will, with the possibility of evil resulting, or He doesn’t create at all-or at least doesn’t grant free will at all. Without just that degree of freedom from the constraints of His will, then human free will doesn’t really exist. So then we need to stand back and look at the bigger picture IMO. God apparently thinks its all worth it, creation as it is. Do we agree or not? Would we prefer to keep our free will or not keep it- or do we prefer to exist, even in this messed up world, or would we opt to cease existing at this moment if given the opportunity? I’d choose the former. I believe God will make it right-that every tear shall be wiped away. But its not an easy question, I admit. These are from the Catechism:

**385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”. The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.**

 

[simpleas]

The Church simply teaches that God knew evil would result from the the abuse of free will, but that He doesn’t will or cause that evil. I don’t think we can have it both ways. He either creates and grants free will, with the possibility of evil resulting, or He doesn’t create at all-or at least doesn’t grant free will at all. Without just that degree of freedom from the constraints of His will, then human free will doesn’t really exist. So then we need to stand back and look at the bigger picture IMO. God apparently thinks its all worth it, creation as it is. Do we agree or not? Would we prefer to keep our free will or not keep it- or do we prefer to exist, even in this messed up world, or would we opt to cease existing at this moment if given the opportunity? I’d choose the former. I believe God will make it right-that every tear shall be wiped away. But its not an easy question, I admit. These are from the Catechism:

**385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”. The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.**

At this moment in time I would prefer no freewill, rather that my will did only what I’m told is Gods will.

And count us among those you have chosen? Why does God only choose certain humans, why not all?

 

[chimo]

That is very true. However a person who doesn’t share your trust in God would say to you, “your God is powerless since he can’t find a way to save everyone.”

Now the answer that we should trust in God would not satisfy this question since, even after trust, why dosen’t God show his power and MAKE everyone go to heaven in a way that would not violate any laws. What is the answer to that? Or why isn’t there a satisfactory answer?

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

You are talking about pride here. If anything that is so perverted it is the sin of pride. If the devil with all of his knowledge of God is still prevented him to be a saint I really do not think people with their limited knowledge can be saints just because God showed up. The Pharisees can be considered the most prideful people in the history of our earth and they were supposed to be religious people! Now how can God make these people into saints when they wanted to crucify His Son and He showed up plenty of times to try to convince them. It is the same with any prideful person. Showing up is not as convincing as God has pointed up. Even the devil tried to convince Jesus of showing up His power like some kind of magician and Jesus rebuked him. The Lord Jesus has only one way to convince us and it was the Way of the Cross. It is by the Cross everyone can be saved. If prideful people are not convinced by the Cross it is then to their loss. You have to ask why people are prideful to answer your question.

 

[fhansen]

At this moment in time I would prefer no freewill, rather that my will did only what I’m told is Gods will.

We’re here to learn -that God’s will is worthy of being freely followed. He’s God, He can’t help but being right. We may not agree with Him at first hand, but to say that God might be wrong- to allow for the possibility of His being disagreed with, is a lot like saying that nature is “wrong”. Adam went against nature, his own nature and the natural order of the universe, by denying God’s authority. It just means that there’s something, bigger than ourselves, that we’re obligated to obey, while yet having the freedom to deny that obligation.

And count us among those you have chosen? Why does God only choose certain humans, why not all?

To further explain the matter of being “chosen”, the Catholic understanding is that God does not determine our destiny:
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

 

[chimo]

Of course, than again when Jesus and the Apostles were talking, the Apostles asked something to the effect, “Who can be saved?” and Jesus responded, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE”.

Maybe God-Incarnate was trying to get something thru to us there!

It is possible for God to save anyone however do you pray for sinners who may be in a state of hell? Does anyone pray for sinners? The Holy Mother at Fatima said sinners enter Hell because no one makes enough reparation or prayers for them. It seems to me she is telling us we as the Church can help sinners. All things are possible for God but you do not receive what you do not ask for. When St. Maria Faustina was asked by the Lord Jesus to pray for a certain dying soul He asked her to help Him save this person. She did some praying which I believe were the Chaplets of the Divine Mercy and the Lord did save the soul. When St. Therese was praying for a certain convict who was probably in a state of Hell at the time, she helped released the Grace of God into this convict to change him forever. It is possible for God to do anything but we need to ask Him for this to be possible. I sense many people who grew into a more sinful life could have been prevented if the right amount of people were interceding before God at the time. God is not going to act unless we act. He has the power to do so and we have the power to ask Him. As a Church there are very few people willing to pray for sinners. Therefore there is this lack of Graces to be sent out.

 

[Thorns]

May be God cannot do the impossible. Perhaps he needs our yes. You can’t force someone to say yes. You need their consent just like the one the Holy Mother had given, the Holy Angels and from us as well.

If God can let people use their consent to send them to hell, He should also be able to allow them to use their consent to exit hell too. Especially if they find that the suffering there is too much for them to handle.

 

[oldcelt]

As one who has proposed this notion to Christians, the solution is really rather simple. God does not create us individually or have any sort of “plan.” He set forth creation, but does not intervene in it. Intervention isn’t necessary since the universe is self-perpetuating for an indeterminate period of time.
Life on our little planet has changed and evolved for millions of years. Science tells us that the earth is about 4 billion years old, yet homosapiens have only been around for what, 25,000 years. It looks like the world is on automatic pilot to me, and mankind as we know it developed when they were ready.
To create sentient beings with the foreknowledge that they will burn for eternity is not the act of a loving god, but a narcissist. Believe in me, though you can’t see me, love me, though you can’t know that anything is by my hand, worship me, or I will consign you to the ovens of eternity.

I’m sure we have all read of humans who do such things, but I cannot accept that the creator would.

 

[oldcelt]

If God can let people use their consent to send them to hell, He should also be able to allow them to use their consent to exit hell too. Especially if they find that the suffering there is too much for them to handle.

The notion of consent is spurious to begin with. Does anyone remember being asked the ultimate question: Do you want to be created…because I certainly don’t.

 

[chimo]

If God can let people use their consent to send them to hell, He should also be able to allow them to use their consent to exit hell too. Especially if they find that the suffering there is too much for them to handle.

I do not believe God sends anybody into Hell. They had chosen this. You are right about God been able to allow them to use their consent to exit Hell. However the person who is in such a state tends not to ask God. It seems to fall unto the Church to do the asking for. God has this Grace and yes I am surprised He doesn’t use it without for the asking. You would think God will do this if it will help that person. It is the biggest mystery why God will not act unless we do it for Him. He has chosen this so we can only speculate why. I perhaps think it is because He wants saints from us. I wish many Catholics and Orthodox would only discover what they are called to be. Whenever the Grace of God does penetrate a person it does effect the person. However the Grace does not operate on everyone the same way. I really do not believe God is interested in punishing anyone when He wants to heal. Jesus said to St. Maria Faustina that the greater the sinner the more right that sinner has to His Mercy. Yet even with this statement Jesus is telling His Faithful to pray more for sinners so that He will do the rest to heal them. It is just that great sinners normally will not call on God.

 

[fhansen]

If God can let people use their consent to send them to hell, He should also be able to allow them to use their consent to exit hell too. Especially if they find that the suffering there is too much for them to handle.

God wouldn’t send anyone to hell who doesn’t prefer that existence to being with Him.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The Church simply teaches that God knew evil would result from the the abuse of free will, but that He doesn’t will or cause that evil. I don’t think we can have it both ways. He either creates and grants free will, with the possibility of evil resulting, or He doesn’t create at all-or at least doesn’t grant free will at all. Without just that degree of freedom from the constraints of His will, then human free will doesn’t really exist. So then we need to stand back and look at the bigger picture IMO. God apparently thinks its all worth it, creation as it is. Do we agree or not? Would we prefer to keep our free will or not keep it- or do we prefer to exist, even in this messed up world, or would we opt to cease existing at this moment if given the opportunity? I’d choose the former. I believe God will make it right-that every tear shall be wiped away. But its not an easy question, I admit. These are from the Catechism:

**385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”. The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.**

You did not answer my simple question which was “How else would you phrase it?”, could you answer it even if the answer is that you don’t have an answer?

As far as your little prayer with the phrase “save us from final damnation”, who is the “us”?

Ever thought or hoped for the “us” being “all of us” as in “all of humanity” as in who Jesus supposedly took “all of the sins of”?

If anyone is in hell forever and ever…, I hope, pray, beg and beseech God to completely and utterly destroy me and unexist me since I have experienced hell and I do not wish to be with a God Who has not come up with a Plan that is worthy of a God Who supposedly is INFINITELY MERCIFUL.

By the way, the fact that I have experienced hell is WHY I believe that Jesus did go to hell and not just to the abode of the “good dead”.

I do NOT for one instant believe that I have experienced worse than Jesus and actually, it only makes sense that if Jesus did indeed take all of our sins upon Himself than He would have experienced hell and death or He would NOT have PAID THE PRICE of sin, any thoughts concerning this from you or anyone else?

 

[Tom_Baum]

It is possible for God to save anyone however do you pray for sinners who may be in a state of hell? Does anyone pray for sinners? The Holy Mother at Fatima said sinners enter Hell because no one makes enough reparation or prayers for them. It seems to me she is telling us we as the Church can help sinners. All things are possible for God but you do not receive what you do not ask for. When St. Maria Faustina was asked by the Lord Jesus to pray for a certain dying soul He asked her to help Him save this person. She did some praying which I believe were the Chaplets of the Divine Mercy and the Lord did save the soul. When St. Therese was praying for a certain convict who was probably in a state of Hell at the time, she helped released the Grace of God into this convict to change him forever. It is possible for God to do anything but we need to ask Him for this to be possible. I sense many people who grew into a more sinful life could have been prevented if the right amount of people were interceding before God at the time. God is not going to act unless we act. He has the power to do so and we have the power to ask Him. As a Church there are very few people willing to pray for sinners. Therefore there is this lack of Graces to be sent out.

Actually, I pray for every man, woman and child who ever was, is or will be.

I have been told that I can not pray this, I pray it anyway.

The little O my Jesus prayer:

O my Jesus
forgive us our sins
save us from the fires of hell
lead all souls to heaven
help especially all those most in need of Thy Mercy.

It says “save us from the fires of hell”, it doesn’t just say keep us, does it?

It does say “lead ALL souls to heaven”, not just some, many pray this, sometimes I wonder how many believe this or even want this or for that matter even think about the words.

And as far as “forgive us our sins”, us as in ALL OF US.,

 

[fhansen]

You did not answer my simple question which was “How else would you phrase it?”, could you answer it even if the answer is that you don’t have an answer?

I did answer it, saying that God knew people would reject Him without willing that to happen.

As far as your little prayer with the phrase “save us from final damnation”, who is the “us”?

My “little prayer” was only included because its part of the paragraph I cited to show the Church teaching that God predestines no one to hell. In a later post I cited paragraph 600, which further explains that God’s “choices” are actually based on* our*, free, choices.

Ever thought or hoped for the “us” being “all of us” as in “all of humanity” as in who Jesus supposedly took “all of the sins of”?

Of course

If anyone is in hell forever and ever…, I hope, pray, beg and beseech God to completely and utterly destroy me and unexist me since I have experienced hell and I do not wish to be with a God Who has not come up with a Plan that is worthy of a God Who supposedly is INFINITELY MERCIFUL.

When you visited hell did you ask anyone there if they’d prefer not to exist, rather than continue to exist without God, which is taught to be the chief aspect of hells torments? Either way, if you know God then you should be able to trust that He’s “come up with a Plan that is worthy of a God Who supposedly is INFINITELY MERCIFUL.”

I do NOT for one instant believe that I have experienced worse than Jesus and actually, it only makes sense that if Jesus did indeed take all of our sins upon Himself than He would have experienced hell and death or He would NOT have PAID THE PRICE of sin, any thoughts concerning this from you or anyone else?

God will not violate our free will-He do so didn’t for Adam, He won’t do so now, while He does give us all the grace we need to help make the right choices. How He works out the details from there I don’t know except that however He does it, the plan will be consistent with love.

 

[chimo]

Actually, I pray for every man, woman and child who ever was, is or will be.

I have been told that I can not pray this, I pray it anyway.

The little O my Jesus prayer:

O my Jesus
forgive us our sins
save us from the fires of hell
lead all souls to heaven
help especially all those most in need of Thy Mercy.

It says “save us from the fires of hell”, it doesn’t just say keep us, does it?

It does say “lead ALL souls to heaven”, not just some, many pray this, sometimes I wonder how many believe this or even want this or for that matter even think about the words.

And as far as “forgive us our sins”, us as in ALL OF US.,

Who would tell you that you cannot pray this? I say this prayer every day as well. It is a beautiful prayer.

 

[fred_conty]

Originally posted by oldcelt
To create sentient beings with the foreknowledge that they will burn for eternity is not the act of a loving god, …

But then how can God get around this? Which the following is from my former post.

What I’m trying to show is that although God is all powerful and all knowing, he can’t arrange a contradiction which this is.

An example, two brothers living evil lives, and one brother reforms his life because of what he didn’t like in his brother. So one went to hell because he was evil, but his evil was the influence that changed his brother’s life into something good, and he went to heaven.

Now if God had not created the evil brother, then the other brother would have gone to hell. So for God in this case, he either has to make 2 brothers, one going to hell and the other going to heaven, or create only one person who will go to hell because he didn’t have a brother to influence him to reform his life so he could go to heaven.

So in either case, someone is going to hell. And if God hadn’t created them both, would that be fair to the other brother who would go to heaven because of his evil brother?

And the same with not creating an evil parent, because all those relatives down the line who would have been created and gone to heaven now will be denied heaven because their evil parent was not created.

These examples could go on and on. And so we have situations where if the evil person is not allowed existence, then other good people wouldn’t be created either. And then God could be called unfair. And this is the contradiction.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.