Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[tonyrey]

The notion of consent is spurious to begin with. Does anyone remember being asked the ultimate question: Do you want to be created…because I certainly don’t.

How on earth can we asked if we want to be created before we exist? I seem to remember you disagreed with Schopenhauer’s view that it would be better if life had never existed on this planet…

 

[Back2Church]

The notion of consent is spurious to begin with. Does anyone remember being asked the ultimate question: Do you want to be created…because I certainly don’t.

An existentialist might say that every moment you remain alive, you are saying yes to that very question.

 

[mikekle]

We don’t conceive of children based upon a cost-benefit analysis, and neither does God.

God creates freely, purely out of love for the other, the created(you and me) based on nothing but our ontological goodness.

You’re comment is no more than a pot complaining to the potter as to why it was created.

The response will always be the same, “because you’re mine and I wanted to.”

Hell comes not because God wanted you to be His, hell comes because you, either by word or deed or sin of omission, didn’t want to be God’s.

I get what you are saying, but really, since we have free will, should it really matter whether we choose to have God in our lives or not? Seems to me (and Ive made this argument on here before), he gives us free will to use, BUT if we dont choose him at some point in our lives, we have somehow made the ‘wrong’ choice and will pay for eternity in torment for it…does this sound logical to you? IMO, if a person has TRUE free will, there is NO right or wrong choices, as long as you are good to others, dont harm anyone, etc. It should not matter if you choose to worship your creator or not.

Why does God have this desire to be worshiped anyway, all descriptions of him and his ways in the bible, he seems very humble and modest, but then he claims he is a jealous God and wants everyone to worship him…??

 

[oldcelt]

But then how can God get around this? Which the following is from my former post.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

We are talking about the Christian God with all the associated omnis right? If we are, you simply do not create people you already know will be damned. If you possess all those powers, it really isn’t a big stretch.

 

[oldcelt]

How on earth can we asked if we want to be created before we exist? I seem to remember you disagreed with Schopenhauer’s view that it would be better if life had never existed on this planet…

I do, I also don’t agree that God directly created life on earth. For me, it is a non-issue.

Since the Christian God moves freely through time and eternity, it seems quite possible that He could figure a way to ask each potential human if they wanted to undergo the process or remain in essential nothingness.

 

[oldcelt]

An existentialist might say that every moment you remain alive, you are saying yes to that very question.

I’m not so sure about that. The deed already having been done, most people tend to ride it out. I personally am an optimist and very curious. I want to see how the remaining time I have plays out.

 

[fhansen]

We are talking about the Christian God with all the associated omnis right? If we are, you simply do not create people you already know will be damned. If you possess all those powers, it really isn’t a big stretch.

If existence is inherently bad, if it’s better to not exist than to exist, so that it’s unjust for God to grant existence, and if free will is inherently bad, so that it’s unjust for God to grant free will, then it could be said that God was wrong in creating the world that He did create, this world.

 

[oldcelt]

If existence is inherently bad, if it’s better to not exist than to exist, so that it’s unjust for God to grant existence, and if free will is inherently bad, so that it’s unjust for God to grant free will, then it could be said that God was wrong in creating the world that He did create, this world.

As I said in an earlier post, I do not believe that God directly created life on earth or any of us, so these are not problems for me. We are a result of billions of years of changes in the creation that God initiated.

That is one portion of my belief system, therefore, it is based on faith, not hard facts and figures…just like everyone else who believes in a deity.

 

[Ion]

Hell is terrible but if those who ended up there didn’t care…
We know that the people who ended up there by their free will, have chosen to be separate from God. The choice was indirect, actually they chose some sins above anything else. They can’t be sorry in Hell, for their choice, because that sin is what they believe is good. If there were possible they would practice their sins in Hell. Practicing the sins leads to suffering, so anyway they would suffer in Hell from each others sins.
Why God wouldn’t create a place where doing sin is the good thing with good results and all the sinners be happy? Because sin does not depend on a system but is personally against God.
May be there souls in Hell who desire rather to be completely extinct? Probably not because there they have the understanding that the soul does not vanish like a body in this world.

 

[tonyrey]

Hell is terrible but if those who ended up there didn’t care…
We know that the people who ended up there by their free will, have chosen to be separate from God. The choice was indirect, actually they chose some sins above anything else. They can’t be sorry in Hell, for their choice, because that sin is what they believe is good. If there were possible they would practice their sins in Hell. Practicing the sins leads to suffering, so anyway they would suffer in Hell from each others sins.
Why God wouldn’t create a place where doing sin is the good thing with good results and all the sinners be happy? Because sin does not depend on a system but is personally against God.

Our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment. Sartre is often misinterpreted: hell is not other people but the result of egoism which alienates others and leads to isolation.

 

[tonyrey]

We are talking about the Christian God with all the associated omnis right? If we are, you simply do not create people you already know will be damned. If you possess all those powers, it really isn’t a big stretch.

It is impossible to know what people will do before they exist! Omniscience doesn’t entail absurdity.

 

[fred_conty]

We are talking about the Christian God with all the associated omnis right? If we are, you simply do not create people you already know will be damned. If you possess all those powers, it really isn’t a big stretch.

You are right, it is not a big stretch…it is a contradiction.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[simpleas]

Not from sinning but from going to hell. We can sin but not necessarily go to hell for it if we repent before death.

But the case is that some do not repent and go to hell. And how is it possible for God to avoid anyone from going to hell since even from evil there is sometimes some good that comes from it which would influence others to heaven which was the example in my post.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

Can’t be sure about an actual place as hell, (torture and fire) If someone has been “bad” and never repents, but helps another person become good and enter heaven, then the “bad” person would be just as worthy to be saved for the Good they did bring about. OMO. What God will do, will be awesome I’m sure.

 

[oldcelt]

It is impossible to know what people will do before they exist! Omniscience doesn’t entail absurdity.

What about Psalm 51? I mean, its the Christian’s guide isn’t it? "“I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”

And as is constantly used here, the Christian God is not restricted by time. He can see before…during and after anything…correct? That is what omniscience is all about.

 

[oldcelt]

You are right, it is not a big stretch…it is a contradiction.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

I don’t see how avoiding sending someone to hell is a contradiction for an all loving, all knowing, all powerful, all present deity.

 

[Amandil]

I get what you are saying, but really, since we have free will, should it really matter whether we choose to have God in our lives or not?

You might as well ask “Should it matter if you have air to breath or water to drink or food to eat?”

mikekle:

Seems to me (and Ive made this argument on here before), he gives us free will to use, BUT if we dont choose him at some point in our lives, we have somehow made the ‘wrong’ choice and will pay for eternity in torment for it…does this sound logical to you? IMO, if a person has TRUE free will, there is NO right or wrong choices, as long as you are good to others, dont harm anyone, etc. It should not matter if you choose to worship your creator or not.

You have a terrible misunderstanding of what freedom and free will is. Freedom is necessarily ordered towards the good. There is no freedom apart from the good.

Evil is not an act of a free will, it is the abuse of free will based upon an attachment to something which you are not purposed for. Addicts are not free people but slaves.

You were made for God, that is your end and the good purpose for which you exist, if you reject God, that is not freedom but slavery. Rejecting God is no different than rejecting reality, it’s moral and spiritual insanity.

mikekle:

Why does God have this desire to be worshiped anyway, all descriptions of him and his ways in the bible, he seems very humble and modest, but then he claims he is a jealous God and wants everyone to worship him…??

He doesn’t need us to worship Him, we need to worship Him. It’s for our good, not His.

 

[Richca]

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcelt
We are talking about the Christian God with all the associated omnis right? If we are, you simply do not create people you already know will be damned. If you possess all those powers, it really isn’t a big stretch.

You are right, it is not a big stretch…it is a contradiction.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

On the surface, it may appear to be a contradiction to create people God already knows will be damned. However, if we examine the matter more closely, there is no injustice of God for so doing. Firstly, I think we need to understand we are dealing with a mystery which is beyond our understanding but by faith we know that God possesses infinite wisdom, He is infinitely good, infinitely merciful, infinitely just, and infinitely loving.

Secondly, God does not damn any person according to His omniscience or knowledge of vision except on account of foreseen demerits and unrepentant sins. God does not choose hell for people or fallen angels, but people and fallen angels choose it themselves. So it is written:

God in the beginning created human beings
and made them subject to their own free choice.
If you choose, you can keep the commandments;
loyalty is doing the will of God.
Set before you are fire and water;
to whatever you choose, stretch out your hand.
Before everyone are life and death,
whichever they choose will be given them (Sirach 15: 15-17).

Thirdly, the angels and human beings in hell are not sorry for their sins as if they wish they had never committed them for consent in the malice of sin remains in them. As St Gregory says, if sinful and unrepentant human beings could live forever on earth, they would wish to remain in sin forever on earth. They repent of their sins indirectly, i.e., on account of the consequent punishment inflicted by God because of their sins and malice but not because of what they heretofore desired in sinning. (cf. ST Supplement, Q. 98, Art. 2).

 

[Thorns]

God wouldn’t send anyone to hell who doesn’t prefer that existence to being with Him.

Us weak and feeble humans tend to make poor decisions, especially if we lack experience in something. Once one experiences hell, they might prefer existence with God instead at that point. You know the saying, “some people have to learn the hard way.”

 

[fhansen]

Us weak and feeble humans tend to make poor decisions, especially if we lack experience in something. Once one experiences hell, they might prefer existence with God instead at that point. You know the saying, “some people have to learn the hard way.”

Yes, *and yet, *“God wouldn’t send anyone to hell who doesn’t prefer that existence to being with Him.”

 

[JapaneseKappa]

We don’t conceive of children based upon a cost-benefit analysis, and neither does God.

God creates freely, purely out of love for the other, the created(you and me) based on nothing but our ontological goodness.

You’re comment is no more than a pot complaining to the potter as to why it was created.

The response will always be the same, “because you’re mine and I wanted to.”

Hell comes not because God wanted you to be His, hell comes because you, either by word or deed or sin of omission, didn’t want to be God’s.

God loves us, therefore he wants what is best for us.

Matt 26:24

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

If God had wanted what was best for Judas, Judas would not have been born.

Judas was born.

Therefore, God did not want what was best for Judas.

Therefore, God did not love Judas.

Therefore God does not love everyone.