Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[MacQ]

You have ignored every one of my statements - and resorted to yet more unsubstantiated allegations instead of addressing the issue:

Is suffering such a major aspect of life that it undermines belief in the Christian God?

I didn’t ignore your statements.
Now you are asking a question which you say is “the issue”. Ok. that’s debatable, but I’ll do my best to answer it.

Seems pretty clear that many people cannot reconcile human suffering and injustice with a loving God. Or ANY God at all for that matter. Hence, atheists.

(I’m not sure what you mean by “a Christian God”, but the idea of God allowing suffering is something that most people struggle with, including Christians. The most popular book on the subject was written by a Jewish Rabbi. I reckon Buddhists and Hindu’s and Muslims have to confront the idea too.)

Is suffering a major aspect of life? Sure it is. If you haven’t found that out yet, you will. I don’t know of anyone who is exempt. And Jesus Himself never said this life was going to be without it. I think He said the opposite, in fact.

IN the midst of suffering, it is given to each of us to decide how to deal with it…to reject God or to turn to Him.

I don’t think that was the central question tho. I think it was whether God planned your specific sufferings.

 

[MacQ]

I’ll answer. Yes…Christianity is too based on suffering, shame, sin and a host of other negatives that do not point to a loving god. There has to be another answer than the monster seen in the old testament where it all supposedly started for Christians.

That answer…suffering is an unfortunate consequence of life on this planet created by God, but a God without an agenda. Some we cause ourselves…some just happens naturally. If I wasn’t so curious I would have ended mine some time ago.

OldCelt:
Christianity (at least in the Catholic sense) is supposed to be based in love (of God and each other). As you say, there are indeed Christians (including Catholics) who focus on suffering, shame and sin…but that’s not what Jesus told us to do.

It’s possible that God’s ‘agenda’ is like that of a father or teacher, who knows that unless we come to something on our own with free will, it has little value. If He exists at all, it seems that He didn’t want to create people he forced to love him…but rather people who arrived at it themselves. He didn’t want robots.
One might think of us as “in formation”…I guess He could have just made us loving and wise in the first place. But perhaps in His view, it’s better for us to struggle and master that ourselves
What mankind did with that free will given…well it’s created a lot of suffering. And a lot happens just as a force of nature. perhaps it’s more about how we handle it than anything.
That’s how I look at it anyway.

Stay curious.

 

[fred_conty]

You conveniently forget the creation performed by the Christian god. If he was directly involved, there should have been no need for redemption. Unless of course…

I’ll finish the phrase, “Unless of course…man sinned.”

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[tonyrey]

Is suffering such a major aspect of life that it undermines belief in the Christian God?

Deism is a carte blanche for those who wish to live without moral obligations and conveniently exclude shame, sin and guilt from their scheme of things.

There has to be another answer than the monster seen in the old testament where it all supposedly started for Christians.

Your obsession with Yahweh explains your obtuse view of the Christian God which ignores the prophecies made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus. One prophet alone predicted the following events:

The Messiah: Jesus of Nazareth: Will be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14) Was born of a virgin named Mary (Luke 1:26-31)
Will have a Galilean ministry (Isaiah 9:1,2) Ministry began in Galilee of the Gentiles (Matthew 4:13-16)
Will be an heir to the throne of David (Isaiah 9:7; 11:1, 10) Was given the throne of His father David (Luke 1:32, 33)
Will have His way prepared (Isaiah 40:3-5) Was announced by John the Baptist (John 1:19-28)
Will be spat on and struck (Isaiah 50:6) Was spat on and beaten (Matthew 26:67)
Will be exalted (Isaiah 52:13) Was highly exalted by God and the People (Philippians 2:9, 10)
Will be disfigured by suffering (Isaiah 52:14; 53:2) Was scourged by Roman soldiers who gave Him a crown of thorns (Mark 15L15-19)
Will make a blood atonement (Isaiah 53:5 Shed His blood to atone for our sins (1Peter 1:2)
Will be widely rejected (Isaiah 53:1,3) Was not accepted by many (John 12:37, 38)
Will bear our sins and sorrows (Isaiah 53:4, 5) Died because of our sins (Romans 4L25; 1Peter 2:24, 25)
Will be our substitute (Isaiah 53:6,8) Died in our place (Romans 5:6, 8; 2 Corinthians 5:21)
Will voluntarily accept our guilt and punishment for sin (Isaiah 53:7,8) Jesus took on our sins (John 1:29; Romans 6:10; 2 Corinthians 5:21)
Gentiles will seek Him (Isaiah 11:10) Gentiles came to speak to Jesus (John 12:20,21) Will be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7) Was silent before Herod and his court (Luke 23:9)
Will save us who believe in Him (Isaiah 53:12) Provided salvation for all who believe (John 3:16; Acts 16:31)
Will die with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12) Was numbered with the transgressors (Mark 15:27, 28; Luke 22:37)
Will heal the brokenhearted (Isaiah 61:1,2) Healed the brokenhearted (Luke 4:18, 19) God’s Spirit will rest on Him (Isaiah 11:2) The Spirit of God descended on Jesus (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; 4:1)
Will be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9 Was buried in the tomb of Joseph, a rich man from Arimathea (Matthew 27:57-60; John 19:38-42)
He will judge the earth with righteousness (Isaiah 11:4,5) Jesus was given authority to judge (John 5:27; Luke 19:22; 2 Timothy 4:1,8)

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Isaiah%27s%20Messianic%20Prophecies.htm

That answer…suffering is an unfortunate consequence of life on this planet created by God, but a God without an agenda. Some we cause ourselves…some just happens naturally.

It is absurd to believe God created this planet without an agenda. It implies that the immensely powerful Creator didn’t know or care what He was doing and that He is inferior to His creatures.

If I wasn’t so curious I would have ended mine some time ago.

Which explains why you reject the moral principles of Christ who taught us that life is a precious gift from God because we are made in His image - with our power of reason, free will and capacity for love (which are otherwise inexplicable). Suicide is an act of selfishness which ignores the effect it has on others - as I know from personal experience.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Suicide is an act of selfishness which ignores the effect it has on others - as I know from personal experience.

I find it very difficult to imagine suicide as being a reasoned action. I am convinced that it occurs in persons who would be suffering from some form of mental illness or substance intoxication. In the case of euthanasia, the person asks that someone else carry out the act and it always involves heavy sedation. That’s what I think anyways.

 

[tonyrey]

I didn’t ignore your statements.
Now you are asking a question which you say is “the issue”. Ok. that’s debatable, but I’ll do my best to answer it.

Seems pretty clear that many people cannot reconcile human suffering and injustice with a loving God. Or ANY God at all for that matter. Hence, atheists.

(I’m not sure what you mean by “a Christian God”, but the idea of God allowing suffering is something that most people struggle with, including Christians. The most popular book on the subject was written by a Jewish Rabbi. I reckon Buddhists and Hindu’s and Muslims have to confront the idea too.)

Is suffering a major aspect of life? Sure it is. If you haven’t found that out yet, you will. I don’t know of anyone who is exempt. And Jesus Himself never said this life was going to be without it. I think He said the opposite, in fact.

IN the midst of suffering, it is given to each of us to decide how to deal with it…to reject God or to turn to Him.

I don’t think that was the central question tho. I think it was whether God planned your specific sufferings.

“specific” has never been the issue. The OP is:

“Why doesn’t God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell?”

This is the central question but it has led to the more fundamental problem of why God allows people to suffer when He could have prevented it. The very fact that He permits suffering demonstrates that it is not a major issue - although deists and atheists believe it is. It is a lesser evil than not creating anyone who is going to suffer because suffering is the result of our power to choose how to live. We all suffer in some way as the result of our own sins and the sins of others. We also suffer because of our physical limitations:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.

The logical alternative is to believe with Schopenhauer that it would be better if life had never existed on this planet rather than adopt a nonsensical view of God as an amoral, unloving Creator who either doesn’t know or doesn’t care what He is doing…

 

[oldcelt]

Deism is a carte blanche for those who wish to live without moral obligations and conveniently exclude shame, sin and guilt from their scheme of things.

Your obsession with Yahweh explains your obtuse view of the Christian God which ignores the prophecies made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus. One prophet alone predicted the following events:

The Messiah: Jesus of Nazareth: Will be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14) Was born of a virgin named Mary (Luke 1:26-31)
Will have a Galilean ministry (Isaiah 9:1,2) Ministry began in Galilee of the Gentiles (Matthew 4:13-16)
Will be an heir to the throne of David (Isaiah 9:7; 11:1, 10) Was given the throne of His father David (Luke 1:32, 33)
Will have His way prepared (Isaiah 40:3-5) Was announced by John the Baptist (John 1:19-28)
Will be spat on and struck (Isaiah 50:6) Was spat on and beaten (Matthew 26:67)
Will be exalted (Isaiah 52:13) Was highly exalted by God and the People (Philippians 2:9, 10)
Will be disfigured by suffering (Isaiah 52:14; 53:2) Was scourged by Roman soldiers who gave Him a crown of thorns (Mark 15L15-19)
Will make a blood atonement (Isaiah 53:5 Shed His blood to atone for our sins (1Peter 1:2)
Will be widely rejected (Isaiah 53:1,3) Was not accepted by many (John 12:37, 38)
Will bear our sins and sorrows (Isaiah 53:4, 5) Died because of our sins (Romans 4L25; 1Peter 2:24, 25)
Will be our substitute (Isaiah 53:6,8) Died in our place (Romans 5:6, 8; 2 Corinthians 5:21)
Will voluntarily accept our guilt and punishment for sin (Isaiah 53:7,8) Jesus took on our sins (John 1:29; Romans 6:10; 2 Corinthians 5:21)
Gentiles will seek Him (Isaiah 11:10) Gentiles came to speak to Jesus (John 12:20,21) Will be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7) Was silent before Herod and his court (Luke 23:9)
Will save us who believe in Him (Isaiah 53:12) Provided salvation for all who believe (John 3:16; Acts 16:31)
Will die with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12) Was numbered with the transgressors (Mark 15:27, 28; Luke 22:37)
Will heal the brokenhearted (Isaiah 61:1,2) Healed the brokenhearted (Luke 4:18, 19) God’s Spirit will rest on Him (Isaiah 11:2) The Spirit of God descended on Jesus (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; 4:1)
Will be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9 Was buried in the tomb of Joseph, a rich man from Arimathea (Matthew 27:57-60; John 19:38-42)
He will judge the earth with righteousness (Isaiah 11:4,5) Jesus was given authority to judge (John 5:27; Luke 19:22; 2 Timothy 4:1,8)

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Isaiah%27s%20Messianic%20Prophecies.htm

It is absurd to believe God created this planet without an agenda. It implies that the immensely powerful Creator didn’t know or care what He was doing and that He is inferior to His creatures.

Which explains why you reject the moral principles of Christ who taught us that life is a precious gift from God because we are made in His image - with our power of reason, free will and capacity for love (which are otherwise inexplicable). Suicide is an act of selfishness which ignores the effect it has on others - as I know from personal experience.

My obsession with Yahweh? God is God in Catholicism and to imply else-wise is heresy, as I have pointed out to you several times. Plus, a series of passages from a highly flawed collection of books chosen my men does nothing to move the issue.

BTW, it would seem that the creator created a great deal of the universe without much of an agenda except maybe to keep the whole from collapsing on itself… Our presence here proves nothing. There may be countless species out there who make us look like amoebas.
I do not reject the moral principles of Christ anymore than I do another teacher. I just don’t accept that we are a direct part of the creation, but a result of it.

I will say this…if I believed for a moment that the enemy god had cursed me with my various afflictions, I would do all I could to foil his plan…up to and including suicide. But, since I don’t believe in that god, I’ll hang in there.

 

[MacQ]

Suicide is an act of selfishness which ignores the effect it has on others - as I know from personal experience.

You do not know that because you haven’t done it.
You are merely sitting in arrogant (and selfish) judgment of anyone who has.

 

[MacQ]

Deism is a carte blanche for those who wish to live without moral obligations and conveniently exclude shame, sin and guilt from their scheme of things.

Your obsession with Yahweh explains your obtuse view …

It is absurd to believe …

Which explains why you reject moral principles …

.

Frankly Tony, your pious pronouncements about other people and their beliefs, and your vacuous but nasty assumptions about other people’s motives are utterly offensive.

It might behoove you to take time out from examining other people and turn your focus to that LOG in your eye.

 

[Shike]

At this moment in time I would prefer no freewill, rather that my will did only what I’m told is Gods will.

And count us among those you have chosen? Why does God only choose certain humans, why not all?

Not to butt in, but I just wanted to say…

Wouldn’t you say that you actually prefer to lose the “ability” to choose evil rather than lose the ability to choose altogether? So you do not want to lose free-will, you just want to be in heaven and a saint; you want to choose God.

…whoa… I had no idea this thread has gone on so long. Kind of long-winded for a rehash of the problem of evil, don’t you think?

 

[MacQ]

At this moment in time I would prefer no freewill, rather that my will did only what I’m told is Gods will.

And count us among those you have chosen? Why does God only choose certain humans, why not all?

In other words, you’d prefer He had just created robots.
And that you would be one, and not have to do anything.

As for your second question, you have it backwards.
God doesn’t choose some and not others.
He hopes everyone will chose Him…

 

[JapaneseKappa]

In other words, you’d prefer He had just created robots.
And that you would be one, and not have to do anything.

As for your second question, you have it backwards.
God doesn’t choose some and not others.
He hopes everyone will chose Him…

God made Mary special and sinless. Was Mary a robot?

 

[MacQ]

God made Mary special and sinless. Was Mary a robot?

No…because I assume she had free will and could have opted to do other than she did.
And I don’t think she had it easy, which is what the poster I replied to was whining for.

 

[tonyrey]

Deism is a carte blanche for those who wish to live without moral obligations and conveniently exclude shame, sin and guilt from their scheme of things.

The above statements are further argumenta ad hominem - illustrated by such terms as “pious”, nasty" and “offensive”, not to mention “It might behoove you to take time out from examining other people and turn your focus to that LOG in your eye.”

NB:

***Argumentum ad Hominem *(abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character **or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.

           [philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html](http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html)

Please note that “Deism is a carte blanche for those who wish to live without moral obligations and conveniently exclude shame, sin and guilt from their scheme of things” is **an objective statement of fact **which applies only to “those who wish to live without moral obligations”. If one rejects the Christian God in favour of deism there is no obvious **reason **for believing in moral obligations because a disinterested Creator is hardly likely to care about how His creatures behave - in stark contrast to those of us who believe we are all children of a loving Father who provides a rational basis for the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. It does not follow that **all **deists wish to live without moral obligations (even though they have no reason for doing so).

Please also note that in your posts you have infringed the first conduct rule of this forum:

Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and crude or sexually-explicit language.

An apology is necessary…

 

[tonyrey]

Suicide is an act of selfishness which ignores the effect it has on others - as I know from personal experience.

Non sequitur. I have witnessed the effects on a boy of his mother committing suicide.

You are merely sitting in arrogant (and selfish) judgment of anyone who has.

Yet another argumentum ad hominem - for which a further apology is required…

NB an act of selfishness which ignores the effect it has on others need not be culpable. Very often it is due to a state of deep depression as it was in the case to which I referred.

 

[tonyrey]

No…because I assume she had free will and could have opted to do other than she did.
And I don’t think she had it easy, which is what the poster I replied to was whining for.

“whining” is another breach of the courtesy rule…

 

[MacQ]

The above statements are further argumenta ad hominem - illustrated by such terms as “pious”, nasty" and “offensive”, not to mention “It might behoove you to take time out from examining other people and turn your focus to that LOG in your eye.”

NB: philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

Please note that “Deism is a carte blanche for those who wish to live without moral obligations and conveniently exclude shame, sin and guilt from their scheme of things” is **an objective statement of fact **which applies only to “those who wish to live without moral obligations”. If one rejects the Christian God in favour of deism there is no obvious **reason **for believing in moral obligations because a disinterested Creator is hardly likely to care about how His creatures behave - in stark contrast to those of us who believe we are all children of a loving Father who provides a rational basis for the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. It does not follow that **all **deists wish to live without moral obligations (even though they have no reason for doing so).

Please also note that in your posts you have infringed the first conduct rule of this forum:

An apology is necessary…

Well, you won’t get one, Tony.
I find that when I say your comments are offensive, that’s an ‘ad hominem’.
But when YOU say it about someone else’s comments (or about their person), it’s an “objective statement of fact”.

Your comments are offensive. They are also nasty and insufferably pious. You accuse a deist of being morally bankrupt, and that’s not ad hominem? You accuse someone else of “having an obsession”…being “obtuse”…and “absurd”…you pass judgement on people you don’t know and brand them as “selfish”…and then have the gall to accuse someone else of ad hominem because they say they find your comments arrogant and offensive?

We R Done.

 

[tonyrey]

My obsession with Yahweh? God is God in Catholicism and to imply else-wise is heresy, as I have pointed out to you several times. Plus, a series of passages from a highly flawed collection of books chosen my men does nothing to move the issue.

You constantly refer to the concept of God in some Old Testament texts and ignore those which are are consistent with the teaching of Jesus - and you condemn the entire collection as “highly flawed” without even justifying your opinion.

BTW, it would seem that the creator created a great deal of the universe without much of an agenda except maybe to keep the whole from collapsing on itself… Our presence here proves nothing. There may be countless species out there who make us look like amoebas.

It is an elementary mistake to equate significance with size or quantity. The existence of rational beings with free will is overwhelming evidence that persons are not produced by fortuitous permutations of atomic particles and random genetic mutations but by Design. It is absurd to attribute the immense value of life to a series of accidents.

I do not reject the moral principles of Christ anymore than I do another teacher. I just don’t accept that we are a direct part of the creation, but a result of it.

You reject the moral teaching of Christ that our lives are sacred because we are created in His image and likeness and we are all children of the same Father in heaven…

I will say this…if I believed for a moment that the enemy god had cursed me with my various afflictions, I would do all I could to foil his plan…up to and including suicide. But, since I don’t believe in that god, I’ll hang in there.

It is a gross error to attribute afflictions to God’s malevolence rather than natural causes - as if we can have everything for nothing and nothing should ever go wrong in a paradise on earth…

 

[tonyrey]

Well, you won’t get one, Tony.
I find that when I say your comments are offensive, that’s an ‘ad hominem’.
But when YOU say it about someone else’s comments (or about their person), it’s an “objective statement of fact”.

Your comments are offensive. They are also nasty and insufferably pious. You accuse a deist of being morally bankrupt, and that’s not ad hominem? You accuse someone else of “having an obsession”…being “obtuse”…and “absurd”…you pass judgement on people you don’t know and brand them as “selfish”…and then have the gall to accuse someone else of ad hominem because they say they find your comments arrogant and offensive?

We R Done.

I shall leave the moderators to decide whether you are infringing the courtesy rule and making unfounded allegations.

 

[tonyrey]

I find it very difficult to imagine suicide as being a reasoned action. I am convinced that it occurs in persons who would be suffering from some form of mental illness or substance intoxication. In the case of euthanasia, the person asks that someone else carry out the act and it always involves heavy sedation. That’s what I think anyways.

I have pointed out that very often an act of selfishness is not culpable because a person is very depressed or mentally disturbed in some other way.