Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

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A third vote here. Planned is not free…and it is much worse when the planner has foreknowledge of the “choices” that will be made.
You seem to be one who can not conceive of a Being “knowing” everything before it happens and yet the choices made, were and are freely being made by us.

I can’t either.

There is a difference between “planned” and “known”.

“Planned” would mean that we are “puppets on a string”, God’s string.

“Known” would mean that there is a Being that is, to put it mildly, far, far above our understanding.

Omniscience does NOT mean writing a “script” and than creating people to “follow that script”, which, as I said, would mean that we are puppets, kinda like we are no more than some characters in a book, a book of fiction, if this were the case, there is no way that anyone could possibly be responsible for anything that they did.

Sometimes one has to suspend their “belief or disbelief” to “see” someone else’s point of view, it doesn’t mean that they have to believe it but they can at least contemplate it.

You wrote, “and it is much worse when the planner has foreknowledge of the “choices” that will be made”.

I look at it as God “knows” All the choices that will be freely chosen by All and it is for this reason that I believe God came up with a “Plan”, even before creation itself and that “Plan” is unfolding before our very eyes.
 
Tony…I do not believe in the God of the bible, so, no contradiction. We have free will because He does not exist. I also do not believe that God created everything…just jump-started the process and allowed it to evolve as it did.
I mean precisely that nothing is planned. To me, it is the only scenario that allows for anything but an enemy god.
You wrote, “I also do not believe that God created everything…just jump-started the process and allowed it to evolve as it did.”

What would you say that God did not create?

As far as “just jump-started the process and allowed it to evolve as it did”, what would this “scenario” leave out that God did not create?

Do you think/believe that all of the “material stuff” was just kinda hanging around and God somehow got “life” going and let it evolve?

Or do you think that God created all of the “material stuff”?

If God created everything including the “laws of science” and the evolutionary process than everything that came out of evolution would be attributed to God so in effect, God created all of the “products” of evolution, correct?
 
You wrote, “I also do not believe that God created everything…just jump-started the process and allowed it to evolve as it did.”

What would you say that God did not create?

As far as “just jump-started the process and allowed it to evolve as it did”, what would this “scenario” leave out that God did not create?

Do you think/believe that all of the “material stuff” was just kinda hanging around and God somehow got “life” going and let it evolve?

Or do you think that God created all of the “material stuff”?

If God created everything including the “laws of science” and the evolutionary process than everything that came out of evolution would be attributed to God so in effect, God created all of the “products” of evolution, correct?
Tom…I am speaking of direct creation. For example, God did not create me as an individual. His creation allowed for humans to develop, reproduce, live and die. No direct intervention in any of that in my belief.
I also think that the laws of nature developed as the universe took form over eons of time. But, if you want to take it back far enough, then you could say that God created everything in a sense.
 
If we take "“Planned is not free” at its face value it means that we are not really free if everything is planned. Yet oldcelt claims we do have free will, thereby apparently contradicting himself. Perhaps he will enlighten us…).
No contradiction that I see.
Planned is not free. It’s one or the other. I think he claims it’s the other (free).
If it’s already planned out, then we really aren’t acting freely are we?
Don’t you believe it’s God’s plan that we have free will?
He may mean that nothing is planned - which would fit in with his belief that God created everything and takes no interest in His creatures (which I find incoherent).

You took that a bit far. Not speaking for OLDCELT, but a person might believe God created everything, gave us free will , and is NOT disinterested in what we do with it.
He seems to believe God is indifferent or unaware because He permits suffering.
 
oldcelt, here is something to ponder. And it certainly can’t be answered by a god who dosen’t give a care.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=735495
I thought I’d put an edited version of the link in the op. It starts at a Catholic Charismatic healing service:

(Praying the Rosary) I had already made up my mind that I wasn’t going to volunteer to go to the front for special prayers or anything. Then something strange happened; I felt this wonderful peace come over me. It was as if all the unhappiness of the years of suffering through this disease suddenly disappeared.

Returning home that evening, I vowed to improve my spiritual life.

By the end of that year the paralysis was in both legs and my arms. … my legs became severely deformed, and the bones began to bow. My right knee became completely displaced because of the spasticity of the leg; the knee-cap came off and slid over into the interior of the leg. Also, there was now no feeling left at all. … It was time to face up to the fact that I was handicapped — and to begin life in a wheelchair. …

Then, one night in June this year, as I lay in bed finishing my rosary, I heard a voice say, Why don’t you ask? I don’t know why, because I had never asked before to be healed. … So I asked with all my heart for her to ask her Son to heal me of whatever I needed to be healed. At that moment I felt a bubbly feeling go through me, and I don’t remember anything else as I fell asleep.

the next morning… I had a Scripture class …My husband helped me into our van which was equipped with hand controls for me, and he placed my wheelchair in the van as he always did. (Once there) there was always someone to help me and get me to class.

Suddenly, as I sat there studying with the rest of the class, I began to experience a feeling of warmth in my feet and legs and an intense itching. But there was no way this could be happening, as I had no feeling in my feet and hadn’t for several years. Then I looked down at my feet and not only were they itching, but my toes were wiggling!

I didn’t remember another thing in the class; in fact, I don’t even remember leaving the class and getting into my van.

As I arrived at my house, I remembered that there was no one home. … They did leave my crutches at the bottom of the three steps leading into our house. If I needed to get into the house, I could do it with the crutches. But it took a great deal of difficulty.

I sat there in the car for 15 minutes, waiting. Then, I had to go to the bathroom. My handicap also included bladder and bowel dysfunction, and I had been in class all morning. . . . so I had to get in and get in right away!

I stretched out of the car and got the crutches. I could not, however, lift my leg with the heavy braces on them. I stood there for a few minutes and then thought that if I could feel my feet—maybe I could also lift my leg. I tried it, and it went up the steps with no difficulty. My heart was pounding!

Once in the house, I unlocked my braces, I looked down at my legs. I thought they looked kind of funny; then it hit me that my right leg was completely straight! I had had two surgeries on it to attempt to straighten it, but neither had been successful. In fact, they had finally released the kneecap (surgically) to let it go with the rest of my knee, stating that was all they could do with it. A severe valgus deformity had resulted from the years of spasticity and muscle imbalance.

As I looked now, it was straight. The kneecap was where it was supposed to be. My legs were perfectly straight!

At that point, I completely flipped out and began screaming that my legs were straight. I kept saying, “Thank you Blessed Mother! Thank you Jesus!” But it still had not sunk in that I was healed. Shaking, I took off the braces and stood up on my legs, unassisted, for the first time in years. I looked down again; they were like anyone else’s legs! Finally it struck me that something very wonderful had happened.

I walked down the hallway. . . walked down the hallway, with my crutches under my arm. When I got to the base of the stairs, I thought: well, if I’m really healed, I can run up those stairs. So I dropped my crutches and did it — and then ran back down and up again. And I just kept shouting “Thank you!” over and over. I went a little hysterical, weeping and laughing at the same time. . . .

I called a good friend who also taught at St. Gregory’s. I remember I was standing in the middle of the living room floor, jumping up and down when she arrived; soon we were both jumping up and down as she realized what was happening.

My friend calmed me down some and said we needed to find my family so that we could tell them. (Arriving back at home after finding her family had left where they’d been) my friend ran in to get Ron who came out, white as a sheet. He thought something must have happened, because my car was still there and the braces and crutches were in the house, and that an ambulance must have come and taken me to the hospital.

continued
Fred…I’m happy that your condition improved so dramatically. I just disagree on the source. There are few, if any, spontaneous healings that cannot be explained by science. To me, it is irrelevant how the healing occurs. I’m just happy when it does.
 
MacQ;12280909:
Don’t you believe it’s God’s plan that we have free will?
No

He seems to believe God is indifferent or unaware because He permits suffering.
God permits His creation to carry on as it will. Creation is not an indifferent act and at least He doesn’t have a plan that includes suffering as a major aspect.
 
Don’t you believe it’s God’s plan that we have free will?.
Of course. That’s the whole point.
What’s being debated is whether He “plans” (as in foreordains) how you will use the free will. And if that were the case, it wouldn’t be free will.
Either you missed that or are deliberately obfuscating the point. I can’t tell which.
[He seems to believe God is indifferent or unaware because He permits suffering.
God does permit suffering. OldCelt will have to opine on the’ indifferent’ or ‘unaware’ part.
In my view, God is neither.
The fact that he permits it (and knows it will occur) doesn’t mean he wants it. Or wills it.
[/quote]
 
Of course. That’s the whole point.
What’s being debated is whether He “plans” (as in foreordains) how you will use the free will. And if that were the case, it wouldn’t be free will.
Either you missed that or are deliberately obfuscating the point. I can’t tell which.

God does permit suffering. OldCelt will have to opine on the’ indifferent’ or ‘unaware’ part.
In my view, God is neither.
The fact that he permits it (and knows it will occur) doesn’t mean he wants it. Or wills it.
I lean toward the unaware. It is even possible that He is not aware that we are here, only because we have no idea how God perceives the universe.
 
Tom…I am speaking of direct creation. For example, God did not create me as an individual. His creation allowed for humans to develop, reproduce, live and die. No direct intervention in any of that in my belief.
I also think that the laws of nature developed as the universe took form over eons of time. But, if you want to take it back far enough, then you could say that God created everything in a sense.
You wrote, “I also think that the laws of nature developed as the universe took form over eons of time.”

I am no scientist but I look at the “laws of nature” as how the “universe took form over eons of time”, not that the “laws” took form over eons of time.

Wouldn’t the way that you look at it mean that these “laws” are changeable, evolvable, more like man-made laws than something that help form what we perceive as material reality?

IOW, I look at “scientific laws” governing the universe as basically being “permanent” not temporary and subject to change.

Thinking about it, it seems as if you might think/believe that the “universe”, itself, is god in that "a changeable, thinkable intelligence of somekind gradually brought into being what is the material stuff of the universe, is this anywhere near what your “conception” of deism is?

I looked up the definition of deism and it is:
  1. belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism ).
  2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
Between this and some of what you have written, it seems to me that the god of your “conception” does not even necessarily know what he has created, is this correct?
 
I lean toward the unaware. It is even possible that He is not aware that we are here, only because we have no idea how God perceives the universe.
Well, that’s an interesting view. I reckon everyone is in for an eschatological surprise, and that would surely be one for me.
Personally, as I live life here and now, I think I’d find it easier to be an atheist than to subscribe to the view that there is a God but He is unaware or uncaring at all about what He had created (or set in motion).
So in that belief set, what happens when you die?
 
Well, that’s an interesting view. I reckon everyone is in for an eschatological surprise, and that would surely be one for me.
Personally, as I live life here and now, I think I’d find it easier to be an atheist than to subscribe to the view that there is a God but He is unaware or uncaring at all about what He had created (or set in motion).
So in that belief set, what happens when you die?
You die. We have no evidence of an afterlife, but I do hold some hope for continued consciousness. (First Law of thermodynamics involving energy)
 
You wrote, “I also think that the laws of nature developed as the universe took form over eons of time.”

I am no scientist but I look at the “laws of nature” as how the “universe took form over eons of time”, not that the “laws” took form over eons of time.

Wouldn’t the way that you look at it mean that these “laws” are changeable, evolvable, more like man-made laws than something that help form what we perceive as material reality?

IOW, I look at “scientific laws” governing the universe as basically being “permanent” not temporary and subject to change.

Thinking about it, it seems as if you might think/believe that the “universe”, itself, is god in that "a changeable, thinkable intelligence of somekind gradually brought into being what is the material stuff of the universe, is this anywhere near what your “conception” of deism is?

I looked up the definition of deism and it is:
  1. belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism ).
  2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
Between this and some of what you have written, it seems to me that the god of your “conception” does not even necessarily know what he has created, is this correct?
Natural laws first. I don’t think they existed beforehand but have developed as the universe did the same.

The definition of God: I am in the camp of Deists who think that it is possible that God is not aware of all He has created, because it is not necessary for such a powerful entity. You’ve hit it pretty dead on.

I asked once if God is conscious in the way we understand the term. It led to some interesting conversation, but no real conclusions. Since we have no dogma, that is quite common.
 
Fred…I’m happy that your condition improved so dramatically. I just disagree on the source. There are few, if any, spontaneous healings that cannot be explained by science. To me, it is irrelevant how the healing occurs. I’m just happy when it does.
Well then explain away!
 
You die. We have no evidence of an afterlife, but I do hold some hope for continued consciousness. (First Law of thermodynamics involving energy)
Not sure what the difference is between an ‘afterlife’ and ‘continued consciousness’.
Unless it’s that one has some purpose and the other doesn’t (which sounds like an empty eternity you can’t escape from…:eek:)
.
But thanks for the answer.
 
Not sure what the difference is between an ‘afterlife’ and ‘continued consciousness’.
Unless it’s that one has some purpose and the other doesn’t (which sounds like an empty eternity you can’t escape from…:eek:)
.
But thanks for the answer.
My thought is like a pleasant dream state that goes on until the continuity of our consciousness breaks down and we drift away pleasantly. It is only a hope, and I suppose there can be other possibilities. I don’t exclude much as being possible.
 
My thought is like a pleasant dream state that goes on until the continuity of our consciousness breaks down and we drift away pleasantly. It is only a hope, and I suppose there can be other possibilities. I don’t exclude much as being possible.
Well, here’s hoping it is pleasant…
I’d like to think that some re-uniting with lost loved ones is possible.
But it’ll be what it’ll be, I reckon.
 
Well, here’s hoping it is pleasant…
I’d like to think that some re-uniting with lost loved ones is possible.
But it’ll be what it’ll be, I reckon.
I’m with you on the hopes, just not very convinced that anything that wonderful will happen. But you’re right, it will be as it will be.
 
I’m with you on the hopes, just not very convinced that anything that wonderful will happen. But you’re right, it will be as it will be.
Aye…those parts are all out of our hands.
We just have to do the best we can with where we are.
Hopes need not be expectations, but rather can allow us to endure.
 
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