Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[salvemater]

Second, I do not believe that God directly created us. We evolved from His creation and He controls nothing on earth.

The idea is based upon the false notion that the universe, by its own nature, is self-perpetuating; it is not. The universe continues to exist because God wills it to. That is why God says, “I AM.” God’s essence is His existence, His very nature is to exist, and all existence is from Him. It is He alone that wills the existence of something; if the universe could exist independently from God, that would make the universe a god itself, which is immediately a contradictory idea.

And the universe only “evolves” because it is material. Material objects, in contrast to metaphysical beings, are, by their very nature, defined by the ability to change. Change is how we measure time, and that’s why we say God and the angels are not bound by time. The existence of change doesn’t somehow indicate that God turns a blind eye to His Creation; it merely points out that the world is physical rather than metaphysical.

If we are to believe in a God that satisfies the “Principle of Causation,” then that God must be metaphysical, and thus of a different nature than the universe and able to manipulate it. Because if God was of the same nature as the universe, He would be bound by time, and thus He too would have had to have a beginning, and thus a Creator.

Your belief is simply not logically sound.

You imply that the universe must have been created by God, but then you state that it exists on its own accord apart from God. You also state that evolution of the universe is the cause for creation within the universe itself, which makes the universe a creator and a god, since it becomes its own essence of existence. If the universe is a creator and is thus of the same nature as God, then God is of the same nature as the universe, and this makes God the essence of existence by the nature of His ability to change (since the universe creates in this manner), which means He is bound by time, and thus had a beginning. And if God had a beginning, He had a cause, and you have an infinite chain of created creators.

 

[tonyrey]

What about Psalm 51? I mean, its the Christian’s guide isn’t it? "“I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”

And as is constantly used here, the Christian God is not restricted by time. He can see before…during and after anything…correct? That is what omniscience is all about.

“sinful at birth” doesn’t mean we are evil or guilty:

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. .

God is not restricted by time but our free will transcends time.** Decisions that don’t exist are unknowable. **The mind is not subject to the laws of nature like the body. We are independent beings who derive our power from God and are capable of rejecting Him for all eternity, not sinless cogs in a machine whose activity is amoral and predictable.

 

[tonyrey]

The concept of deism falls apart very easily.

First, if we are to understand God as a Being with a personality, making Him something other than “the energy of the universe” or “the fundamental structure of science” or something of a similar ridiculous nature, then it is quite obvious that He would want to be involved with His Creation.

Second, how can God not have control over the very system He created? Why would He design such a system that is so great that He cannot manipulate it? In fact, how is it even possible?

Third, how can we declare the personality of a God that is completely indifferent His Creation somehow less cruel and more loving that a God who is entirely invested in loving His Creation and saving them?

What is your mind compared to the mind of God? On what basis can you declare such judgment?

Let’s put it this way. “In your mind,” if you were a loving God who wanted others to willingly love you in return, what would you do? And if you encountered evil, how would you put an end to it without either using sentient beings or simply destroying them?

You’re essentially making the argument that the Christian God can’t exist because He doesn’t do what you would do.

The deists’ God is the apotheosis of egoism!

 

[tonyrey]

The idea is based upon the false notion that the universe, by its own nature, is self-perpetuating; it is not. The universe continues to exist because God wills it to. That is why God says, “I AM.” God’s essence is His existence, His very nature is to exist, and all existence is from Him. It is He alone that wills the existence of something; if the universe could exist independently from God, that would make the universe a god itself, which is immediately a contradictory idea.

And the universe only “evolves” because it is material. Material objects, in contrast to metaphysical beings, are, by their very nature, defined by the ability to change. Change is how we measure time, and that’s why we say God and the angels are not bound by time. The existence of change doesn’t somehow indicate that God turns a blind eye to His Creation; it merely points out that the world is physical rather than metaphysical.

If we are to believe in a God that satisfies the “Principle of Causation,” then that God must be metaphysical, and thus of a different nature than the universe and able to manipulate it. Because if God was of the same nature as the universe, He would be bound by time, and thus He too would have had to have a beginning, and thus a Creator.

Your belief is simply not logically sound.

St Paul was far close to the mark:

“For **in him **we live and move and have our being.” Acts 17:28

 

[oldcelt]

“sinful at birth” doesn’t mean we are evil or guilty:

God is not restricted by time but our free will transcends time.** Decisions that don’t exist are unknowable. **The mind is not subject to the laws of nature like the body. We are independent beings who derive our power from God and are capable of rejecting Him for all eternity, not sinless cogs in a machine whose activity is amoral and predictable.

See omniscience

 

[JapaneseKappa]

No. God’s plan is based upon what He already knew we would do with our free will.
In other words, He doesn’t purposely cause something evil to happen. He just responds in the best possible way to what He knows we are already going to do.

That would be like me writing a computer program I knew was going to crash, then claiming its not my fault the program crashed and blaming the computer.

That would be like me making my dog eat something I knew would make it vomit, then claiming the vomit all over the house is not my fault and blaming the dog.

Call it what you will, but that is the teaching of the Church. That is, again, why we are called the Church Militant. Comic books and fairy tales are based upon a Christian understanding of the world. The modern notion of “it’s really God’s fault that there is evil at all” is a secular perspective that is quite frankly stupid, to be straightforward and honest. It’s easy to shift blame and state that it would be better for everyone if there were no evil, but that’s simply not our reality. Evil exists, not because of God, but because of man, and because of that we are obligated to be heroes. Is their collateral damage? Yes. But it’s better than doing nothing. Recall that Ex 15:3 states, “The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is His name.” The weapon of His choice is the Cross.

I’m always somewhat amused by the fact that those who blame God for not wiping evil from the face of the Earth are almost always those who would be wiped away, if they got what they wanted. Who hasn’t committed a sin? To what degree should God “withhold his mercy?”

Suppose you found yourself lying on the ground in a line with your family, friends, and neighbors. A man is walking along killing two people, then saving the next one, killing two more, then saving the next one. You ask him: “how can you do this?” and he responds, “this is the way by which God will make a better world.”

Would you believe that his God was merciful, loving, and good? Would you beg his God for forgiveness? Would you want to live in a world ruled by that man’s God?
2 Samuel 8:2

And he defeated Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the earth: and he measured with two lines, one to put to death, and one to save alive: and Moab was made to serve David under tribute.

Its easy to claim the world is fine and dandy when you imagine yourself to be the heroes of the comic book story. When you are the chosen ones. But those people who are collateral damage are people too, with immortal souls and all. God created the mothers of Egypt, but why? So that he could use them in a display of his power? The mothers of Egypt did not refuse to let the Israelites go, Pharaoh did; but they all lost their firstborn children just the same.

The problem is that history isn’t the only thing written by the victors, they get to write the theology too; you don’t count the dead when God’s on your side.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

So you’re essentially saying you’d rather not exist?

I’m sorry, but when people imply that their hearts are screaming to God, “How dare you have created me? I have the capability of committing evil! Destroy me at once!” I just can’t help but call that stupid. There is obviously a lack of understanding about love and mercy involved.

Let me state very clearly: If God knew prior to creating me that I would go to hell, I would prefer that he not create me at all.

There is no mercy in entering a paralyzed child into a footrace he can’t win. There is no love in creating something to fail, then blaming it for the failure.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

God is not restricted by time but our free will transcends time.** Decisions that don’t exist are unknowable. **The mind is not subject to the laws of nature like the body. We are independent beings who derive our power from God and are capable of rejecting Him for all eternity, not sinless cogs in a machine whose activity is amoral and predictable.

Question: were all the predictions of the prophets simply statements made in ignorance?

 

[tonyrey]

Question: were all the predictions of the prophets simply statements made in ignorance?

The prophets were inspired by God.

 

[tonyrey]

Let me state very clearly: If God knew prior to creating me that I would go to hell, I would prefer that he not create me at all.

There is no mercy in entering a paralyzed child into a footrace he can’t win. There is no love in creating something to fail, then blaming it for the failure.

We are not mentally paralyzed but created with **the power to choose **whether to live for ourselves or for others. If we fail **we **alone are responsible and have only ourselves to blame.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

The prophets were inspired by God.

So did God inspire them with statements God made in ignorance?

 

[oldcelt]

Tony…this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia on omniscience:

God signifies that He possesses infinitely perfect science or certain knowledge of Himself. He also knows perfectly all that **has existed, exists, or will exist in both the physical and moral order. **This divine science extends to every free act, but this foreknowledge implies no necessity. The Catholic Church defined at the First Vatican Council that God is infinite in all His perfections and possessed of intellect and will (H. Denzinger, Enchiridion symbolorum, 3001). The council also stated that this knowledge whereby “all things are naked and open to his eyes” (Heb 4.13) is the foundation of the providential governance of all things, “even the future free actions of creatures” (Enchiridion symbolorum 3003; see free will and providence).

encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3407708248/omniscience.html

So you see, you are quite wrong that the acts of a yet to be created human cannot be known according to the Catholic Faith.

 

[Amandil]

Let me state very clearly: If God knew prior to creating me that I would go to hell, I would prefer that he not create me at all.

That says more about you and your views about existence than about God.

God at least loves you enough to give you the choice where you would deny yourself even that possibility.

There is no mercy in entering a paralyzed child into a footrace he can’t win. There is no love in creating something to fail, then blaming it for the failure.

Salvation is not a “footrace” nor are we “paralyzed”.

God did not create you to fail, you choose that by denying yourself His help.

IOW, grace gives the “paralyzed child” the ability to run.

He won’t force you to run, and He can’t give you His help unless you want it.

 

[Amandil]

“sinful at birth” doesn’t mean we are evil or guilty:

I’m sorry, Tony, but “sinful at birth” does at least mean that we are guilty of Original Sin, but you are right in that it means that we are not evil.

 

[salvemater]

That would be like me writing a computer program I knew was going to crash, then claiming its not my fault the program crashed and blaming the computer.

It’s not the same at all. In your example, the computer is a non-sentient machine without free will that is simply carrying out the actions it is commanded until it crashes. The computer you described was programmed to crash. It was designed that way, and therefore that has become its purpose.
In the example of humanity, humans use their sentience and free will to “hijack their coding” to use it to rebel against their purpose: being with God in heaven.

Also, the example with the dog is flawed because it has only one end: what the dog eats MUST make it vomit. Free will isn’t designed to make people sin. It can be used, against the purpose of its design, to do so.
It’s more comparable to giving a dog an unlimited supply of food, knowing that if the dog overeats, it will vomit, but if it eats responsibly, it will not. You could argue that the owner could simply reduce the amount of food to a more “responsible level,” but then the dog can refuse to eat.

All good created things can be corrupted. If you wish to prevent all evil, you must never create anything good.

Suppose you found yourself lying on the ground in a line with your family, friends, and neighbors. A man is walking along killing two people, then saving the next one, killing two more, then saving the next one. You ask him: “how can you do this?” and he responds, “this is the way by which God will make a better world.”

Would you believe that his God was merciful, loving, and good? Would you beg his God for forgiveness? Would you want to live in a world ruled by that man’s God?
2 Samuel 8:2

First, not everything that happened in the Bible was specifically endorsed by God. Chosen men of God took actions that were not in line with what God desired. They were recorded simply because they were of great historical importance.

Second, God is also just. He is just because He is loving. A God who never punishes those who commit evil is a God that passively permits and consequently endorses it.
He will never punish the innocent, as is evident by His response to Abraham before the destruction of Soddom and Gemorrah. But He is completely entitled to punish the wicked, and He would be right in doing so. It is up to Him to dispense His mercy as He pleases.

A great illustration of this is the parable about the workers in the vineyard.

Its easy to claim the world is fine and dandy when you imagine yourself to be the heroes of the comic book story. When you are the chosen ones. But those people who are collateral damage are people too, with immortal souls and all. God created the mothers of Egypt, but why? So that he could use them in a display of his power? The mothers of Egypt did not refuse to let the Israelites go, Pharaoh did; but they all lost their firstborn children just the same.

And yet they permitted for this slavery to go on, and said nothing in protest of it?

 

[salvemater]

Let me state very clearly: If God knew prior to creating me that I would go to hell, I would prefer that he not create me at all.

There is no mercy in entering a paralyzed child into a footrace he can’t win. There is no love in creating something to fail, then blaming it for the failure.

That is a selfish perspective and a flawed analogy.
What about all of the descendants you may have produced who could have been saved? Perhaps they could have been saints.

God doesn’t create you to fail. He may know what choices you will make, but they are still your choices. If you are damned, you have only yourself to blame.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

It’s not the same at all. In your example, the computer is a non-sentient machine without free will that is simply carrying out the actions it is commanded until it crashes. The computer you described was programmed to crash. It was designed that way, and therefore that has become its purpose.
In the example of humanity, humans use their sentience and free will to “hijack their coding” to use it to rebel against their purpose: being with God in heaven.

As another user has pointed out, Catholic teaching states that God knows ahead of time what we will choose. Regardless of how I choose it (via free will or hijacking) God has foreknowledge.

First, not everything that happened in the Bible was specifically endorsed by God. Chosen men of God took actions that were not in line with what God desired. They were recorded simply because they were of great historical importance.

Quite right. For example Saul disobeyed when he slaughtered the people of Amalec:

And he [Saul] took Agag the king of Amalec alive: but all the common people he slew with the edge of the sword. And Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the flocks of sheep and of the herds, and the garments and the rams, and all that was beautiful, and would not destroy them: but every thing that was vile and good for nothing, that they destroyed.

But his disobedience was for not slaughtering the region thoroughly enough:

And Samuel said: When thou [Saul] wast a little one in thy own eyes, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel? And the Lord anointed thee to be king over Israel. And the Lord sent thee on the way, and said: Go, and kill the sinners of Amalec, and thou shalt fight against them until thou hast utterly destroyed them. Why then didst thou not hearken to the voice of the Lord: but hast turned to the prey, and hast done evil in the eyes of the Lord.

And so, to repent:

And Samuel said: Bring hitherto me Agag the king of Amalec. And Agag was presented to him very fat, and trembling. And Agag said: Doth bitter death separate in this manner? And Samuel said: As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed him in pieces before the Lord in Galgal.

Second, God is also just. He is just because He is loving. A God who never punishes those who commit evil is a God that passively permits and consequently endorses it.
He will never punish the innocent, as is evident by His response to Abraham before the destruction of Soddom and Gemorrah. But He is completely entitled to punish the wicked, and He would be right in doing so. It is up to Him to dispense His mercy as He pleases.

Tell that to David’s son:
2 Samuel 12:13-18

And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die. And Nathan returned to his house. The Lord also struck the child which the wife of Urias had borne to David, and his life was despaired of. And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground. And the ancients of his house came, to make him rise from the ground: but he would not, neither did he eat meat with them. And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died

 

[JapaneseKappa]

That is a selfish perspective and a flawed analogy.
What about all of the descendants you may have produced who could have been saved? Perhaps they could have been saints.

God doesn’t create you to fail. He may know what choices you will make, but they are still your choices. If you are damned, you have only yourself to blame.

Selfish? You are saying that I should think of other people before I decide to avoid hell?
We are not talking about some sort of grin-and-bear-it inconvenience here, we are talking about eternal damnation. If there is any situation where it would be permissible to be selfish it would be one involving the eternal status of your immortal soul. I’m not condemning other people to hell by choosing not to exist, I am condemning them to non-existence.

If Judas came to you and expressed doubts about whether he should betray Jesus, would you advise him to think of all the souls he will save by handing Jesus over?

 

[fhansen]

I have met God and KNOW that God Is a Being of Love and that is about the extent of my"knowledge" of God, I do, however, have many beliefs concerning God and since I know that God Is a Being of Love as opposed to love being merely an attribute of God, this is what I base many of my beliefs on.

Yes, I believe you. Anyway, it’s difficult to reconcile the existence of evil in this world, let alone eternal torment in hell, with the God who is love. And yet somewhere along the line He allows us the freedom to choose whether or not we’ll embrace love as the highest good-or not-whether we’ll choose cold, selfish pride instead, I guess. But He’s patient and kind in bringing us into His fold- we just don’t know the beginning from the end as He does.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The deists’ God is the apotheosis of egoism!

Just as many believers in the God of Judaism and Christianity have different “conceptions” of God, I would venture to say that not all deists would have the exact same “conception” of God.

It might not be to the “deists’ God” that one need to look for the “egoism” that you mention.