Why doesn't God just not create the bad people to keep them from going to hell

[Tom_Baum]

Let me state very clearly: If God knew prior to creating me that I would go to hell, I would prefer that he not create me at all.

There is no mercy in entering a paralyzed child into a footrace he can’t win. There is no love in creating something to fail, then blaming it for the failure.

As far as “Let me state very clearly: If God knew prior to creating me that I would go to hell, I would prefer that he not create me at all.”

I totally agree with you on this except that I take it farther in that I include anyone and everyone that “would go to hell” if that hell lasts for ever and ever and ever and ever and…, as so many think/believe it to last and much sadder to say, so many seem to want it to last.

 

[Tom_Baum]

That says more about you and your views about existence than about God.

God at least loves you enough to give you the choice where you would deny yourself even that possibility.

Salvation is not a “footrace” nor are we “paralyzed”.

God did not create you to fail, you choose that by denying yourself His help.

IOW, grace gives the “paralyzed child” the ability to run.

He won’t force you to run, and He can’t give you His help unless you want it.

You wrote, “That says more about you and your views about existence than about God.”

In reply to, “Let me state very clearly: If God knew prior to creating me that I would go to hell, I would prefer that he not create me at all.”

He/She is speaking about the “Catholic definition” of God concerning God’s Omniscience in that God “knows” before anyone is created whether or not they will end up in hell and he/she is giving their opinion and they are entitled to their opinion.

Maybe God’s Omniscience concerning this is why God became One of us and took our sins upon Himself on the cross and why Jesus told us the “mission” of His Church is that “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”.

Actually, I totally agree with them and I can’t see how anyone with even a drop of decency running thru their veins could be so cold toward anyone being in an agony beyond agony for ever and ever and ever and… and then speak of this God as being INFINITELY MERCIFUL.

I understand that you haven’t experienced hell but haven’t you given any thought at all about how “horrible beyond horrible” this “condition” would be for anyone?

 

[Tom_Baum]

That is a selfish perspective and a flawed analogy.
What about all of the descendants you may have produced who could have been saved? Perhaps they could have been saints.

God doesn’t create you to fail. He may know what choices you will make, but they are still your choices. If you are damned, you have only yourself to blame.

That doesn’t change the “Catholic fact” that God knows before creating anyone that that anyone will be in hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, at least according to some Catholics.

 

[Amandil]

Tom Baum:

You wrote…

You really don’t need to repeat what you’ve already encapsulated in the quote function.

If you’re addressing a specific sentence, wrap that sentence around quotes.

The way you’re doing it makes following your posts rather difficult.
Tom Baum:

Actually, I totally agree with them…

Then that says more about you than about God as well.
Tom Baum:

… and I can’t see how anyone with even a drop of decency running thru their veins could be so cold toward anyone being in an agony beyond agony for ever…

Because God is totally free. Your statement assumes that God can be blackmailed into feeling sorry for those who utterly refused him because He gave them precisely what they wanted: eternity without Him.

It has less to do with “decency” and more to do with truth, love, and reality.

Your version would have God deny all three, to claim that sin is not sin at all at that he owes people salvation, regardless of if they’re even capable of repentance much less willing to repent, because it’s contrary to your version of “love” if He doesn’t.
Tom Baum:

…and then speak of this God as being INFINITELY MERCIFUL.

Because He is ** for those who want his mercy.**
Tom Baum:

I understand that you haven’t experienced hell but haven’t you given any thought at all about how “horrible beyond horrible” this “condition” would be for anyone?

Nobody has experienced hell on this side of existence and yes I have.

I gave thought to non-existence before I even became Catholic and was kept up at night in fear of that.

Hell is obviously worse.

I don’t want anyone to go there. But like Christ I’m a realist. People are going to refuse God’s love and grace irrevocably because they love some thing more than they’re willing to love Him.

And he’s going to let them have it, even to their own destruction.

 

[chimo]

I was speaking about praying “for every man, woman and child who ever was, is or will be”.

I was told that I had to be more specific and even tho I am not mentioning every man, woman and child that ever was, is or will be by name since that is an impossibility, at least for me although not for God, I consider that I am being very specific in wanting God’s Mercy for ALL.

I, personally, like the Mass in the vernacular since I understand the vernacular and during the Mass in one of the Eucharistic prayers, the priest prays for “MERCY FOR ALL” and I think that if one may happen to hear this, that one may happen to “ponder” this.

Well perhaps you mentioning for all will give God more room to choose whom He believes will need it the most.

 

[chimo]

Jesus himself said that it would have been better for Judas not to have been born. Are you telling me that you know more about what is good for people than Jesus? Maybe “betrayal of Jesus” is an unforgivable sin like in Mark 3:29

What Judas did to Jesus is very questionable because we need to know why Judas did what he did. I always wondered why would anyone who betrays someone would ever kill themselves? What exactly is this betrayal that the Scriptures say is motivated from. I have this notion that Judas wanted Jesus to reveal Himself to the authorities by forcing the issue on Jesus hopefully to get out of it. Since Judas knew who Jesus was perhaps by forcing this issue on Jesus, the Lord would try miraculous to get out of it. However the Lord would not play into the bluff of His apostle and when Judas saw that the Lord would not try to get out of this Judas became scared. This would help explain why Judas would eventually go and hang himself. Judas was not trying to kill Jesus but he wanted to force the issue on Jesus to reveal Himself. If Judas wanted the death of Jesus it does not explain why Judas would go and kill himself. Jesus knowing what Judas would do alleges to this fact that the apostle would do something against himself. Whether Judas is in hell or not I really do not know. If the Lord can give grace to someone before they die while attempting suicide and this grace can save them we must be open to the fact that this grace was offered to Judas if it would helped. The words that it would be better if this person was not born does not signify eternal condemnation. Even His Holiness Pope John Paul II has said this. Perhaps the words are alluding to the fact that the apostle would sadly take his own life.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . “If you knew when your child was born that a few years hence she would be tortured continuously, not for an hour or two or even a day or two or even a year or so, but for eternity, what would you do?” . . .

Is this rational? I can’t conceive of the possibility.
God creates from eternity in time. A person is created, eternally existing in God’s mind. There is no before or after for God with respect to that person’s existence, that the life can be taken back before it is created.
Solely “loving” people cannot be created, since love and obedience are something we give - it is our choice.

 

[Bradski]

I gave thought to non-existence before I even became Catholic and was kept up at night in fear of that.

This is one hell of a hypothetical (no pun intended) but would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife? I know, it sounds almost too ridiculous a question to answer because the two are irrevocably entwined (but do you know of any religions that don’t have a happy-ever-after?).

I know, with absolute certainty, that you don’t think there’s any chance of you going to hell whatsoever. Here’s why…

Let’s say that there is a one in a hundred chance that you will be selected for an experiment. The experiment is to see how much torture people can survive. If you are selected, you will have to endure unspeakable agony every second of every day for a year.

You would pleading to anyone who would listen to get off that list. You would do anything to get off. Whatever was asked. You would sell everything you had, you would beg for any opportunity to avoid even the chance of being selected. You would spend every day in terror, scared of what might happen. I doubt if you’d be able to function at all.

Now you say that there’s a chance you will be in agony for ever. Are you really doing everything you possibly can to avoid that?

And hey, you didn’t exist 30 years ago and that wasn’t so bad, was it? Nothing to it at all. It’ll be the same when you’re gone.

 

[Amandil]

This is one hell of a hypothetical (no pun intended) but would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife? I know, it sounds almost too ridiculous a question to answer because the two are irrevocably entwined (but do you know of any religions that don’t have a happy-ever-after?).

Deism, Platonism, Paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism, for a few.

I examined many religions and philosophies before I came back to Christianity(evangelical Protestantism was a major factor which led to my atheism).

The problem is that your system, materialism, is a closed system: a self-sufficient series of material causes and effects.

As you have demonstrated there is no room in your system for any rational argument.

So who is it that is really glued to irrational dogma?

Bradski:

I know, with absolute certainty, that you don’t think there’s any chance of you going to hell whatsoever. Here’s why…

Oh I can’t wait…

Bradski:

Let’s say that there is a one in a hundred chance that you will be selected for an experiment. The experiment is to see how much torture people can survive. If you are selected, you will have to endure unspeakable agony every second of every day for a year.

You would pleading to anyone who would listen to get off that list. You would do anything to get off. Whatever was asked. You would sell everything you had, you would beg for any opportunity to avoid even the chance of being selected. You would spend every day in terror, scared of what might happen. I doubt if you’d be able to function at all.

Wow. You totally got me pegged.

I suggest that you educate yourself, there are thousands of men and women who suffered trials and martyrdom as this man, Phileas of Egypt, did.

Bradski:

Now you say that there’s a chance you will be in agony for ever. Are you really doing everything you possibly can to avoid that?

Yes. My faith does not rest on my sinfulness but on Christ’s mercy.

Bradski:

And hey, you didn’t exist 30 years ago and that wasn’t so bad, was it? Nothing to it at all. It’ll be the same when you’re gone.

I did exist 30 years ago.

Regardless, this world will be the same for however long until Christ comes again.

But my existence afterwards will be a much fuller reality than anything that you will ever experience here, God willing.

 

[Bradski]

Deism, Platonism, Paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism, for a few.

Pagans have Summerland, Valhalla etc plus reincarnation. Hindus have Samsara which is pretty much the same as reincarnation and Buddhists keep on keeping on as well. Platonism is a philosophy and Deism? Well, I guess OldCelt would be the guy to ask there.

My faith does not rest on my sinfulness but on Christ’s mercy.

Was ‘faith’ a typo for ‘fate’? Because it seems that you can be a really naughty boy, but if you ask forgiveness before you shuffle off you get the thumbs up anyway. Let’s be honest - you are probably as much a sinner as the rest of us posting here, so what do you really think your chances are of burning?

And what do you think you are doing that’s going to keep you out of the flames?

 

[Bradski]

And a follow up to that…

If I knew someone, even slightly, and I knew that they were in line for that torture experiment, I don’t think that I’d be able to sleep at night worrying about them. If it was someone I loved, then I would be beside myself with worry.

There seems to some to be a consensus that, as bad as the death of a loved one can be, there is comfort in knowing they have ‘gone on to something better’. What if there is a chance that they will go to hell? Even a slight chance? How it possible to live anything approaching a normal life with the knowledge that your children or your wife or your parents may end up being tortured for ever?

I suggest that it isn’t possible. You would quite probably go mad.

 

[Amandil]

Pagans have Summerland, Valhalla etc plus reincarnation. Hindus have Samsara which is pretty much the same as reincarnation and Buddhists keep on keeping on as well.

Paganism varies from what you say to nothing at all.

Reincarnation. Hmmm. Another go-round on this earth as what exactly? Sign me up.

Bradski:

Platonism is a philosophy…

With a belief in the afterlife. Look it up.

Bradski:

… and Deism? Well, I guess OldCelt would be the guy to ask there.

Not necessary. According to him its a “bonus”, although what that “bonus” is coming from an utterly disinterested god is anyone’s guess.

Bradski:

Was ‘faith’ a typo for ‘fate’? Because it seems that you can be a really naughty boy, but if you ask forgiveness before you shuffle off you get the thumbs up anyway.

I’ve come to expect next to nothing in terms of accuracy from you. No surprise here.

Bradski:

Let’s be honest - you are probably as much a sinner as the rest of us posting here,

Guilty as charged, but as usual you miss the point. That’s the difference between you and I though. Habitual sinners think that they’re all saints; “sin obscures sight.”

That’s why atheists such as yourself like to tout your “goodness”.

True saints know that they are sinners.

Bradski:

…so what do you really think your chances are of burning?

As good as anybody’s. But the difference between you and I is that I don’t place my faith in my goodness, but in His.

Bradski:

And what do you think you are doing that’s going to keep you out of the flames?

Again, you miss the point. I can’t do anything. He already did it.

 

[Bradski]

As good as anybody’s. But the difference between you and I is that I don’t place my faith in my goodness, but in His.

But seriously, you don’t seem to be the least bit concerned about it at all. Not in the slightest. The only thing that seems to have kept you awake at nights is the thought of not existing.

It doesn’t look like being tortured for eternity is on your radar. I don’t think you worry about it at all. Because I think that you don’t think it’s going to happen to you. Nobody does.

 

[Amandil]

But seriously, you don’t seem to be the least bit concerned about it at all. Not in the slightest. The only thing that seems to have kept you awake at nights is the thought of not existing.

It doesn’t look like being tortured for eternity is on your radar. I don’t think you worry about it at all. Because I think that you don’t think it’s going to happen to you. Nobody does.

Whatever you say.

 

[oldcelt]

With a belief in the afterlife. Look it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradski
… and Deism? Well, I guess OldCelt would be the guy to ask there.

Amandil: Not necessary. According to him its a “bonus”, although what that “bonus” is coming from an utterly disinterested god is anyone’s guess.

So disinterested that He saw to it that an entire universe was created. I think that your run-in with protestantism has left you with that “personal relationship” notion of God. That is not in the Catholicism I was taught, and is really a bit presumptive IMO. In the final analysis, Deists leave possibilities open, but don’t claim to know intimate details related to a vastly superior force. We do, however, believe that He is logical. All through observation of the world around us.
If there is some sort of afterlife, it would be a bonus in my eyes.

 

[fred_conty]

So disinterested that He saw to it that an entire universe was created. I think that your run-in with protestantism has left you with that “personal relationship” notion of God. That is not in the Catholicism I was taught, and is really a bit presumptive IMO. In the final analysis, Deists leave possibilities open, but don’t claim to know intimate details related to a vastly superior force. We do, however, believe that He is logical. All through observation of the world around us.
If there is some sort of afterlife, it would be a bonus in my eyes.

Here is a catholic with a personal relationship.

“Jesus in my heart, I believe in your tender love for me, I love you.”

Mother Teresa

 

[Aloysium]

. . . “personal relationship” notion of God. That is not in the Catholicism I was taught, . . .

It was sort of obvious. As obvious as your preference to criticize your projected notions rather than to learn the truth. Should you ever care, you should read anything by Ratzinger.

Pope Benedict XVI:
If we let Christ into our lives, we lose nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing of what makes life free, beautiful and great. . . Only in this friendship do we experience beauty and liberation…When we give ourselves to Him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ – and you will find true life.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You really don’t need to repeat what you’ve already encapsulated in the quote function.

If you’re addressing a specific sentence, wrap that sentence around quotes.

The way you’re doing it makes following your posts rather difficult.

Then that says more about you than about God as well.

Because God is totally free. Your statement assumes that God can be blackmailed into feeling sorry for those who utterly refused him because He gave them precisely what they wanted: eternity without Him.

It has less to do with “decency” and more to do with truth, love, and reality.

Your version would have God deny all three, to claim that sin is not sin at all at that he owes people salvation, regardless of if they’re even capable of repentance much less willing to repent, because it’s contrary to your version of “love” if He doesn’t.

Because He is ** for those who want his mercy.**

Nobody has experienced hell on this side of existence and yes I have.

I gave thought to non-existence before I even became Catholic and was kept up at night in fear of that.

Hell is obviously worse.

I don’t want anyone to go there. But like Christ I’m a realist. People are going to refuse God’s love and grace irrevocably because they love some thing more than they’re willing to love Him.

And he’s going to let them have it, even to their own destruction.

As far as “Nobody has experienced hell on this side of existence and yes I have.”

Are you Omniscient?

How could you possibly know this unless you are God and not telling anyone?

Merely, your opinion and God can and does do things that many think that God is incapable of doing.

 

[Amandil]

As far as “Nobody has experienced hell on this side of existence and yes I have.”

No you haven’t. 1)You may “think” that you have, but there’s no way that you can assert it without begging the question.

1. People who may have actually experienced hell have never returned from the dead to talk about it. That’s the thing about hell, once you’re there, you don’t leave.

Tom Baum:

Are you Omniscient?

How could you possibly know this unless you are God and not telling anyone?

Asking more pointless rhetorical questions does not prove your case.
Tom Baum:

Merely, your opinion and God can and does do things that many think that God is incapable of doing.

So can God deny Himself? Can God unmake Himself?

You really ought to reconsider saying such nonsensical things about God.

 

[chimo]

Sure a lot of people have been to Hell and back!