Why Doesn't God Reveal the Truth?

[Truthseeker77]

Happy B

I understand what you are saying.
Regarding…
"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. ” John 3:3 and 3:5
…
What makes you think that born of water means baptism? Especially after you read verses like, "And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5 (See also Acts 11:16, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8)
In this verse Christ is pointing out the contrast of physical birth and spiritual birth. The flesh produces flesh while the Spirit produces that which is spiritual. We are born of water, physically. We must be born once to be born again. Born of flesh first and then born of spirit second. (See John 3:3)

Baptism is not salvation it is works…
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9… and… “he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” Titus 3:5

In biblical times baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe. So, in the minds of the apostles and early disciples, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith. This is how we are to look at it today.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17)? Granted, in this passage Paul is arguing against the divisions that plagued the Corinthian church. However, how could Paul possibly say, “I am thankful that I did not baptize…” or “For Christ did not send me to baptize…” if baptism were necessary for salvation? If baptism is necessary for salvation, Paul would literally be saying, “I am thankful that you were not saved…” and “For Christ did not send me to save…” That would be a ridiculous statement for Paul to make.

Remember this verse next time you see a baby being baptized…
"Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 8:36-37 Does that baby believe anything with all of his heart?

In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship / adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

 

[I_Fortuna]

I am a Southern Baptist, but I have a lot of respect for the Catholic faith. One of my favorite podcasts is Catholic Answers Live. Here is one thing I have wondered about and would like a Catholic perspective:

I think most Protestants are like me and don’t question that the Pope is a man after God’s heart. I would think that most Catholics would agree that Billy Graham is a godly man. Here are two godly men but both have different views on the Eucharist and purgatory. If one view is right and the other is wrong, why doesn’t God reveal the truth to the person with the incorrect view?

Brent

There are some who believe that two ideals, ideas, or posits may be true simultaneously. I believe that is true only in a worldly context. For instance, if a man and a woman have an argument both of them can have valid points simultaneously yet never completely agree 100% with the other’s views. I have come to believe after studying religion for about 50 years that this is not the case when it comes to spiritual religious beliefs.

After nearly 30 years of active Buddhist practice and studying other religions, Judaism, Hinduism, Ancient Egyptian religion, and Christianty it has come to my attention that The Roman Catholic Church, although not infallible is the One True Church and has the most truth of any church or religion in the world today. The RCC is growing as a living breathing entity and it is important to note that is growing slowly and carefully in order to make certain that it is properly nourished and grows strong and straight according to God’s will. With this in mind, we must be patient and mindful of our role in this growth making efforts outside our normal comfort zone. And, this is not to say certain individuals are not receiving the Living Word. Some are but only can go just so far in their understanding.

I agree after having been a Protestant first that the Protestant teachings are fractured and partial. I believe that the Catholic Church is most wholly and holy correct at this moment in time and space.

It is, afterall, the Holy Catholic Church that first produced the bible that all Protestants read today. Please understand that the bible did start with the Catholic Church and the Church was built upon the Rock where Jesus had said Peter would build His church.

God reveals His truth to all who are ready to receive it. If one is not ready then the teachings seem wasted upon the individual even though the seed is planted.

It took many years for me to come to the Catholic Church not that the call had not come, but I was not ready. Some years ago when I was first baptised with the Holy Spirit by a priest in Santa Barbara, before I was baptised in water and before I converted, I was being prepared by the Holy Spirit for my recent conversion to Catholicism (2 years Catholic and 1 year as a Protestant).

It is not that other religions or people are wrong because they all seek truth, it is that their journey is either successful (in my case converting to Catholicism) or it is not. Some people are only able to, for one reason or another, to go only so far in their journey on earth and then the rest must be left up to those who will help us in purgatory to purify ourselves in order to be assimilated within God’s Heavenly Realm.

I cannot speak for the journey of other people although I would encourage conversion to the Catholic faith as soon as possible. After having viewed dvds by Jeff Cavins, I have been able to be corrected, enlightned and partake in the living Word and learn how the Old Testament and New Testament are intertwined as the living Word in context and in completeness. This is a constant journey in flux, it never ends and does not come to a crescendo for most people on the earthly plane.

There is no one that I have known, Protestant or Catholic, who has not benefited in some way from this man’s knowledge and presentation of the study of the bible. Study with a good teacher is key in order to grow in the Holy Spirit in ways that cannot be experienced or understood by anyone outside of the Catholic Church or rarely so.

All of the above is only based on my experience and opinion. You may take it as you will.

 

[The_Reginator]

In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship / adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

Yes. There lays the problem the OP refers to.
How can we possibly hope to know the truth if we expect to find it in the New Testament alone?
Divine revelation did not end when the Catholic Church assembled the bible. All denominations contain part of the truth, but many things are missing. God entrusted His Truth to the Church He Himself established. That is why there are truths that cannot be found in the bible.
Sacred Scripture + Sacred Tradition = Truth. (Well that may be rather over-simplified but it illustrates my point using only few words.)

 

[sulkow82]

Baptism is not salvation it is works…
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9… and… “he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” Titus 3:5

There are two (2) types of works. There is the works of man and the works of the Holy Spirit. When Paul denounces works, he means the works of man or the law. If someone follows the law technically, their heart can still be dead inside, there is no love. This is what Paul is refuting.
On the other hand when James talks about works (see Chap 2) he is talking about something different. James is talking about a love/ faith so deep that “I had to do something. I couldn’t just stand around and let that happen.” He was saying that a person’s faith is dead if they could look upon something good or bad and say “whatever” and walk away.

When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith. This is how we are to look at it today.

True. However, baptism is how we enter the Body of Christ.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)?

Interesting how you cited this passage. The very next verse holds information to answer your question. Look at v. 15 which says "lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. " The Corinthian Church was breaking up into “clicks” based on who conducted the baptism ceremony. This is also stated in v. 12 of the same chapter. St. Paul was celebrating the fact that he did not contribute to this infighting.

Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize,

Note that Paul says that Christ “did not send me to baptize.” Paul is saying that baptism is not a part (or a major part) of his personal ministry.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, Paul would literally be saying, “I am thankful that you were not saved…” and “For Christ did not send me to save…” That would be a ridiculous statement for Paul to make.

You are correct it would be strange comment for Paul to make because there were other people to be authorized to baptize. While he was saying baptism was not part of his ministry, he was not undercutting its importance.

Remember this verse next time you see a baby being baptized… [Acts 8:36-37] Does that baby believe anything with all of his heart?

Paul also wrote: ** I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.** (Gal 9: 5). Could you show me a passage which says that infants are required to understand the Law before being circumcised? Yet, Paul was well aware that the Scriptures say And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. (Lev. 12: 3.) Paul compares circumcision to baptism because both is how people enter the respective covenants with God.

sulkow82 SFO

 

[Bryan_J]

I believe God does, 100% of the time to 100% of those alive. We choose to see ‘the truth’ or not. Our biggest blinders are self manufactured. Our tendency is to see only what we want to see. This is why only individual belief, in the Bible for example, is not enough. We cannot read it without interpreting it for ourselves. Believing only one’s self is a sneaky but powerful sin. “If I can’t prove it the way I see it then it’s either not there or not true.” We must submit to a commuity of believers in order to approach understanding God’s truth. This is the Catholic Church for one.
Bryan

 

[Happy_B]

There are some who believe that two ideals, ideas, or posits may be true simultaneously. I believe that is true only in a worldly context. For instance, if a man and a woman have an argument both of them can have valid points simultaneously yet never completely agree 100% with the other’s views. I have come to believe after studying religion for about 50 years that this is not the case when it comes to spiritual religious beliefs.

After nearly 30 years of active Buddhist practice and studying other religions, Judaism, Hinduism, Ancient Egyptian religion, and Christianty it has come to my attention that The Roman Catholic Church, although not infallible is the One True Church and has the most truth of any church or religion in the world today. The RCC is growing as a living breathing entity and it is important to note that is growing slowly and carefully in order to make certain that it is properly nourished and grows strong and straight according to God’s will. With this in mind, we must be patient and mindful of our role in this growth making efforts outside our normal comfort zone. And, this is not to say certain individuals are not receiving the Living Word. Some are but only can go just so far in their understanding.

I agree after having been a Protestant first that the Protestant teachings are fractured and partial. I believe that the Catholic Church is most wholly and holy correct at this moment in time and space.

It is, afterall, the Holy Catholic Church that first produced the bible that all Protestants read today. Please understand that the bible did start with the Catholic Church and the Church was built upon the Rock where Jesus had said Peter would build His church.

God reveals His truth to all who are ready to receive it. If one is not ready then the teachings seem wasted upon the individual even though the seed is planted.

It took many years for me to come to the Catholic Church not that the call had not come, but I was not ready. Some years ago when I was first baptised with the Holy Spirit by a priest in Santa Barbara, before I was baptised in water and before I converted, I was being prepared by the Holy Spirit for my recent conversion to Catholicism (2 years Catholic and 1 year as a Protestant).

It is not that other religions or people are wrong because they all seek truth, it is that their journey is either successful (in my case converting to Catholicism) or it is not. Some people are only able to, for one reason or another, to go only so far in their journey on earth and then the rest must be left up to those who will help us in purgatory to purify ourselves in order to be assimilated within God’s Heavenly Realm.

I cannot speak for the journey of other people although I would encourage conversion to the Catholic faith as soon as possible. After having viewed dvds by Jeff Cavins, I have been able to be corrected, enlightned and partake in the living Word and learn how the Old Testament and New Testament are intertwined as the living Word in context and in completeness. This is a constant journey in flux, it never ends and does not come to a crescendo for most people on the earthly plane.

There is no one that I have known, Protestant or Catholic, who has not benefited in some way from this man’s knowledge and presentation of the study of the bible. Study with a good teacher is key in order to grow in the Holy Spirit in ways that cannot be experienced or understood by anyone outside of the Catholic Church or rarely so.

All of the above is only based on my experience and opinion. You may take it as you will.

:thumbsup:It was very nice!!! Well done for sharing this. Sometimes it’s very hard to seek the truth! But sometimes it isn’t. For me it has been easy, simple and clear ever since I was born, no questioning of God as I’ve always somehow knew He knew what He was doing. After all, we have the promise of the Holy Spirit He will stay with us forever, why have fear then? We are lucky and blessed and assured The Catholic church will be here forever! We just need to pray a lot - all of us, sacrifice a lot, fast a lot and pray that all people find the Truth!

 

[Truthseeker77]

Yes. There lays the problem the OP refers to.
How can we possibly hope to know the truth if we expect to find it in the New Testament alone?
Divine revelation did not end when the Catholic Church assembled the bible. All denominations contain part of the truth, but many things are missing. God entrusted His Truth to the Church He Himself established. That is why there are truths that cannot be found in the bible.
Sacred Scripture + Sacred Tradition = Truth. (Well that may be rather over-simplified but it illustrates my point using only few words.)

So you don’t believe that the scripture is complete? You don’t believe that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17) ? God says that the scripture is enough to complete and thoroughly equip a man for every good work. What does that mean to you?

Catholics say that tradition and scripture are equal. I used to be Catholic for many years and I never found that to be true. Neither is it true for all the Catholics I’ve ever talked to. What is true for all Catholics is that Tradition is held at a much higher status than any scripture. Why wouldn’t it? After all, tradition keeps you saved right?

I pray that everyone here will go to the Sacred Scripture for the whole truth, for completeness and for wisdom, just as the Bereans did (Acts 17:11) and just as God instructed us all to do.

 

[Lola_Hoi]

Greetings

Why do people think that just because someone puts on a pointy hat (mitre) and fancy robe or speaks fine sounding spiritual words makes him or her holy. Our most righteous deeds are but filthy garments to Jehovah God. Some people have a religious calling but it places then no higher in the pecking order of righteousness.

Read your bible, its good for the soul

 

[jcrichton]

Isn’t it revealed in the Bible that Jesus shared His last supper with Peter and 11 others who were not Peter, but you cannot share communion with a Catholic ?

Isn’t it revealed that Mary went home with John and was not put on the cross to die for our sins ?

Isn’t it revealed that God says ’ Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh." (Genesis 2:21-24) and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? (Matthew 19:5)

God intended men to grow up and move away from their dependency on their mothers. Maturing in relationships is moving on, acquiring the wisdom to deal with life events, growing with God, experiencing the world from the inside, living lives as an example of families raised in God’s love, raising children to serve God in His image and to see the grandchildren raised to perfection through the process, even to learn from errors made if this is the case.

The purpose of creation, to create to God’s greater glory, purpose and joy. Anything less denies His love for the world and the giving of His only one true Son to save us from condemnation. This is why and how we have reached this point 2,000+ years later, as imperfect as we are there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

A beautiful diamond on a vast pebbled beach is dross if it can’t be found. And this is the problem with religious practices and ideals, men have to be careful otherwise the acts of religiosity become like the many pebbles on the vast beach, hiding the beautiful Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless

So you are saying that Catholics teach that the Virgin Mary was Crucified?

I think that you should reread your post and find the errors in your argument… Catholic Teaching is based on both Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition (which is the Biblical method employed by Christ and the Thirteen original Apostles).

When man decides that he knows better he begins a “true” church of Christ and employes as many contortionist tricks as he is able to muster, always seeking to establish doctrines that departs from the original doctrine of the Church–many who seek their own “freedom” from the Church Founded by Christ eagerly follow (a “choice” which is not new to the 16th and the era that followed–see St. Jude 1:8-13; 2 St. Peter 2:1-22) because they reason that Scriptures should change according to the times; instead of seeking Truth they seek to conform to secular society… Christ Himself warned about their coming:

23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time. 26"So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. (Matthew 24:23-26)

Consider too that every single Christian community claims that the Holy Spirit is guiding them… why do you suppose that the Holy Spirit would seek to dismantle Christ’s Church?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Truthseeker77]

There are two (2) types of works. There is the works of man and the works of the Holy Spirit. When Paul denounces works, he means the works of man or the law. If someone follows the law technically, their heart can still be dead inside, there is no love. This is what Paul is refuting.
On the other hand when James talks about works (see Chap 2) he is talking about something different. James is talking about a love/ faith so deep that “I had to do something. I couldn’t just stand around and let that happen.” He was saying that a person’s faith is dead if they could look upon something good or bad and say “whatever” and walk away.

True. However, baptism is how we enter the Body of Christ.

Interesting how you cited this passage. The very next verse holds information to answer your question. Look at v. 15 which says "lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. " The Corinthian Church was breaking up into “clicks” based on who conducted the baptism ceremony. This is also stated in v. 12 of the same chapter. St. Paul was celebrating the fact that he did not contribute to this infighting.

Note that Paul says that Christ “did not send me to baptize.” Paul is saying that baptism is not a part (or a major part) of his personal ministry.

You are correct it would be strange comment for Paul to make because there were other people to be authorized to baptize. While he was saying baptism was not part of his ministry, he was not undercutting its importance.

Paul also wrote: ** I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.** (Gal 9: 5). Could you show me a passage which says that infants are required to understand the Law before being circumcised? Yet, Paul was well aware that the Scriptures say And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. (Lev. 12: 3.) Paul compares circumcision to baptism because both is how people enter the respective covenants with God.

sulkow82 SFO

There are two (2) types of works. There is the works of man and the works of the Holy Spirit. When Paul denounces works, he means the works of man or the law. If someone follows the law technically, their heart can still be dead inside, there is no love. This is what Paul is refuting.
On the other hand when James talks about works (see Chap 2) he is talking about something different. James is talking about a love/ faith so deep that “I had to do something. I couldn’t just stand around and let that happen.” He was saying that a person’s faith is dead if they could look upon something good or bad and say “whatever” and walk away.
**
AGREED!**

True. However, baptism is how we enter the Body of Christ.

**No, I’m sorry that is not how we enter the Body of Christ. Believing in Jesus Christ is how. Who is He? He is the Way, Truth and Life. If we believe in Him, in all of Him and who He is, then we will be saved (See John 3:16)
**
Interesting how you cited this passage. The very next verse holds information to answer your question. Look at v. 15 which says "lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. " The Corinthian Church was breaking up into “clicks” based on who conducted the baptism ceremony. This is also stated in v. 12 of the same chapter. St. Paul was celebrating the fact that he did not contribute to this infighting.

True that Paul didn’t want to be caught up with that mess of division. However, the whole section of those scriptures points out that baptism is not necessary to salvation, else the apostle would have been giving thanks to God that he saved so few.

Note that Paul says that Christ “did not send me to baptize.” Paul is saying that baptism is not a part (or a major part) of his personal ministry.

You are correct it would be strange comment for Paul to make because there were other people to be authorized to baptize. While he was saying baptism was not part of his ministry, he was not undercutting its importance.

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect." Preaching the Gospel is what saves someone, not baptizing. Paul knows that preaching the Gospel is key.

Paul also wrote: I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. (Gal 9: 5). Could you show me a passage which says that infants are required to understand the Law before being circumcised? Yet, Paul was well aware that the Scriptures say And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. (Lev. 12: 3.) Paul compares circumcision to baptism because both is how people enter the respective covenants with God.
**
First of all, there is no Galatians 9:5
“Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.” Galatians 5:2-8 If you believe that baptism replaces circumcision then you are still under the law. You are obligating yourself to keep the whole law, because circumcision(or your baptism) is a pledge to live by the law. If that is the case, you have fallen from grace.

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.” Galatians 5:1**

 

[Truthseeker77]

Greetings

Why do people think that just because someone puts on a pointy hat (mitre) and fancy robe or speaks fine sounding spiritual words makes him or her holy. Our most righteous deeds are but filthy garments to Jehovah God. Some people have a religious calling but it places then no higher in the pecking order of righteousness.

Read your bible, its good for the soul

Well said! That is right!

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you and others who have responded. I agree with you that “the fullness of his relevation is the Person of Jesus Christ.” And it is the love of Christ (believing in Him) that is the cornerstone of worshiping in spirit and in truth.

I don’t know why God does what He does, but I do know it is right. Certainly millions have come to know Christ through the teaching of the Catholic Church. Likewise, many have come to know Christ through Graham and other Protestant ministries. Perhaps God sees no need to “convert” one method over to the other, because they both are spreading the Gospel and that is the ultimate command of Christ to all of us.

Brent

Hi, Brent!

…actually here’s His ultimate Command:

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (St. John 13:34-35)

…and this ultimate Command is to facilitate Jesus’ Ultimate Goal:

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (St. John 10:20-23)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No, they were at the very ‘same’ table as Peter, a table that is now denied to others in Christ’s name ! Jesus fed them without discrimination.

You seem to forget that those who are denied is because they chose to leave the table and reingeneer Jesus as they saw fit.

The separation is there because some “Christians” refuse to accept Christ’s Word that His Body is indeed the Bread and that His Blood is indeed the Drink that gives Eternal Life!

…still other “Christians” have adopted any teaching that secular society embraces (abortion, divorce, homosexuality, sterilization, etc.) and have even corrupted the Priesthood by initiating women and open homosexuals into the Priesthood.

Yes, Peter was given a specific job to do, he was singled out by both Satan and Jesus for his weakness of faith and therefore Jesus felt he was in need of special prayer because he didn’t know himself. Is Peter now considered infallible, if so why? Is this what Jesus taught him to say of himself ?

You are the perfect example of why sola Scriptura just doesn’t work!

Your exegesis establishes a Christ who is so short-sighted that He chooses to establish His Church on the weakest link… and Satan fairs no better since he is too stupid to realize that attacking the weakest link will gain him nothing but someone who runs at the slightest sign of danger–Scriptures contradict both premises!

Please re-read the Gospel; you will find Jesus and the Ten placing Peter (Cephas) at a different position than what your mind has created for him.

As for your infalible query, here is a perfect example, in Scripture, about it:

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 St. Peter 3:14-16)

St. Peter is not only demonstrating that the Oral Teachings are alligned with the preexisting Sacred Writings but that the New Testament revelations are Holy Spirit Inspired and thus Sacred Writings!

How far off is Jesus from a man that there must be continual prayers to His mother? There is but one Lord and Saviour.

So was Jesus being facetious when He said:

“The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.” ? (St. Mattew 9:37b-38)

The Communion of the Saints was instituted by Jesus when He Taught us to pray!

Absolutely, we should all be like beautiful ornaments around our parent’s necks. But He also wants us ALL to mature in their light into loving parents who produce children walking in the same light who will be like beautiful ornaments around our own necks. Thus embracing His teachings for all our generations. His only one true Son has already been sacrificed, so that no other man needs to bring an end to generations yet to come.

Sorry… you’ve lost me on this one!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The Holy Spirit guides us in all truth (“However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.” John 16:13) .

Where does the Holy Spirit dwell now? In born again believers. The scriptures tell us:

“God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.” Acts 17:24

“the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” John 14:17

“Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.” 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. ” John 3:3 and 3:5

So we see that the body is the dwelling place for the Holy Spirit for those that are born again, who believe in Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, repenting of sin and loving Him more than anything or anyone. Anyone not born again, receiving His Spirit, will not go to heaven. Jesus is not religiosity, He is simple and life giving Truth. Go to Him to get truth, not a church, not a minister not anyone. Go to Him. Who is He? He is the Life, Truth and Way and He is the Word that was in the beginning. Pray to Him alone, want Him alone and ask for Him alone and Truth will set you free.

Truth cannot be yours until you are born again and have the Holy Spirit. Truth will be confusing and foolish to you if you do not have Him in you.

Don’t forget…

"who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.” Acts 8:14-23

In Christ

Hi!

Your premise seems very logical and spiritually based… the problem I see with it is that it calls Jesus a liar since He instituted a Church which would stand till the end of times (His terms not mine); so did Jesus get it wrong or is sola Scriptura failing us when it suggests that we can ignore Jesus’ own Word?

Here’s a little tidbit:

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.

46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:1, 46-47)

You see, centralized worship is not an invention made by men; The Holy Spirit added to the Believers those that humbly submitted themselves to God’s Calling! (Acts 2:41)

You do make an excellent point with the passage that indicates that the Holy Spirit did not abound with the newly Baptized until the Imposition of the Hands–this passage clearly demonstrates that there is a Fullness of Truth that has to be held in order to abide in Christ; conversely, we also have the documented reversal of Acts 8:16:

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days. (Acts 10:44-48)

This passage in particular demonstrates that there is indeed a need for the Fullness of Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)?..

Actually, it is:

Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him. (St. Matthew 21:31-32–see also Acts 10:46-28)

Your exegesis of 1 Corinthians 1:14 is wrong because you seem to believe that St. Paul is minimizing the Sacrament of Baptism; St. Paul is actually correcting a schism that is developing in the Early Church:

10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought… 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?.. (1 Corinthians 1:10-15)

St. Paul is not suggesting that Baptism is not necessary; rather, he is demonstrating that there should be no division and that he did not bringing forth many into the Faith through the intimacy of Baptism!

Remember this verse next time you see a baby being baptized…
Does that baby believe anything with all of his heart?

You seem to interprete Schipture with a denominational skew:

14…Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home… (Acts 16:14-15)

You truly believe that there were no children in Lydia’s household or that they would be kept from Baptism till your denominational “just right age?”

Consider Joel 2:16:

16 Gather the people, consecrate the assembly; bring together the elders, gather the children, those nursing at the breast…

…and consider too that if the old Covenat included children at the ripe age of 8 days of age, why would the new Covenant be hostage to the whim of human interpretation of age “X”?

In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy… petitioning saints in Heaven… apostolic succession… sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest… as reorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

Wow… you do have a little problem with Authority!

Slow down… breathe… once again… better?

Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?

That term is not found in Scriptures–the Catholic Church gave it to you!

Do you believe in the Holy Bible?

The Catholic Church gave it to you!

Do you believe in Christ?

Here’s what He said about the Church:

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Mattew 16:18-19)

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (St. Mattew 18:15-18)

Christ gave you His Church and placed her as the Authority on earth (clearly understood by the Apostles: 1 Timothy 3:15) since she would be guided by the Holy Spirit (St. John 14:15-17, 25-26; 16:7-15).

As far as extra-Biblical revelation… when did Christ call the disciples His Apostles or Christians? For that matter, when did He reveal that He is the Second Person of the Triune God?

Here’s a little flavor:

And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. (1 Corintians 12:28)

…so is St. Paul just making thins up as he goes? Rather, it is the Holy Spirit that directs and refines the Church’s Doctrine as the need arises. The Early Church is a Church in transition fighting the schisms and power plays that give rise to doctrinal teachings in the form of Epistles. The Gospels too arise as a printed form ot doctrinal teachings; yet, since the heresies did not arise in one single epic moment the Church has been forced to be in a constant combat mode in order to extinguish that which threatenes the Faith. Guided by the Holy Spirit new heroes have risen to defend the Faith and, as with most living organisms, the struggles have produced new and varied doctrinal teachings and vocabulary.

Since you are looking in, most of the struggle and definitions escape you; I do not fault you since Satan disguises himself as an angel of light in order to disuade man’s heart and mind from the Truth. If you are truly seeking to know Christ’s Church I suggest that you present your queries one topic at a time… moving to the next topic only once the previous one has been truly studied.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

God reveals His truth to all who are ready to receive it. If one is not ready then the teachings seem wasted upon the individual even though the seed is planted.

It is not that other religions or people are wrong because they all seek truth, it is that their journey is either successful (in my case converting to Catholicism) or it is not. Some people are only able to, for one reason or another, to go only so far in their journey on earth and then the rest must be left up to those who will help us in purgatory to purify ourselves in order to be assimilated within God’s Heavenly Realm.

I have been able to be corrected, enlightned and partake in the living Word and learn how the Old Testament and New Testament are intertwined as the living Word in context and in completeness. This is a constant journey in flux, it never ends and does not come to a crescendo for most people on the earthly plane.

Study with a good teacher is key in order to grow in the Holy Spirit in ways that cannot be experienced or understood by anyone outside of the Catholic Church or rarely so.

Hi!

I selected the points which I found most enlighting from your post–your trek, as that of most Believers, has been a constant growth, though as you stated not always understood as such; a growth towards Christ, the ultimate Truth. You seem to have understood your part (responding to God’s Call) and have not allowed the perceived failures to affect your spiritual quest.

I am pleased to have learned about some of your experience. God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I believe God does, 100% of the time to 100% of those alive. We choose to see ‘the truth’ or not. Our biggest blinders are self manufactured. Our tendency is to see only what we want to see. This is why only individual belief, in the Bible for example, is not enough. We cannot read it without interpreting it for ourselves. Believing only one’s self is a sneaky but powerful sin. “If I can’t prove it the way I see it then it’s either not there or not true.” We must submit to a commuity of believers in order to approach understanding God’s truth. This is the Catholic Church for one.
Bryan

I fully concur!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

:thumbsup:It was very nice!!! Well done for sharing this. Sometimes it’s very hard to seek the truth! But sometimes it isn’t. For me it has been easy, simple and clear ever since I was born, no questioning of God as I’ve always somehow knew He knew what He was doing. After all, we have the promise of the Holy Spirit He will stay with us forever, why have fear then? We are lucky and blessed and assured The Catholic church will be here forever! We just need to pray a lot - all of us, sacrifice a lot, fast a lot and pray that all people find the Truth!

Fantastic testimony to the Holy Spirit’s influence in the Believers’ Life!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brentAL]

Again, I thank everyone for their replies.

It is really interesting getting so many replies from Catholics. In the county I live in in Alabama, there are over 70 Baptist churches, plus numerous other Protestant churches. There is only one Catholic church. You just don’t run into many Catholics here, particularly those who are devout.

I understand your argument that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus. Obviously, Protestants respectfully disagree. There is one small Protestant denomination (The Church of Christ) in which many within that denomination are convinced they are the one true church (and all the rest of us are not even going to Heaven)!

When Paul and Barnabas split on their journeys, God continued to use them both. I suspect that is the case today. Whether Satan was behind the split (reformation), God made good come from it. I suspect some have come to know the Lord through Protestant evangelism (particularly on the charismatic end) that may have never known Him through the Catholic Church.

Let’s assume the Catholic teachings about Purgatory are right, I have to believe it is God’s will for some to be blinded to that fact for the benefit of the Gospel. Because I just have to believe that Billy Graham (a famous example of an undeniable seeker of the truth in walking in fellowship with God) would have been revealed that truth. I don’t think it is out of ignorance. But rather it is just God’s will that some remain blinded to that for the furtherance of the Kingdom. That is if the teaching of Purgatory is correct.

And our upbringing has a lot to do with it. As I said, there are few Catholics around here. Purgatory is a hard pill to swallow when Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And from a Baptist standpoint (respectfully of course), we believe Jesus paid our debt in full and God the Father did not consider Jesus’ sacrifice to be insufficient so that there was more debt to be paid for our sin. But that is another long debate. We believe that faith without works is dead because true faith will produce works. Works are a natural product of true faith. But the works do not “save” us or have anything to do with our salvation. Rather the works are an evidence of our having placed our trust in Christ and He being Lord of our lives.

Above all, I think the saddest reality is this: there are many people filling the pews of both Protestant and Catholic churches who really aren’t Christians. There lives show no fruit (works). They just go to church because that is what they do-- what is expected. They enjoy no relationship (i.e. prayer and Bible study) during the week. Just get up and go to church, and go through the motions thinking that is all they need to do. These people are convinced that they are going to Heaven, when as Jesus said, “he never knew” them. Satan is a deceiver and he has deceived many.

Loving each of you in the Lord,
Brent

 

[sulkow82]

If you believe that baptism replaces circumcision then you are still under the law. You are obligating yourself to keep the whole law, because circumcision(or your baptism) is a pledge to live by the law. If that is the case, you have fallen from grace.

For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (Matt 5: 18)

This passage also can involve infant baptism. For, in Lev. 12: 3, Our Lord writes And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Now let’s take a look at if baptism replaces circumcision. St. Paul writes.

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. (Col 2: 11-12)

So, this shows that baptism is how we enter into the Covenant with God. It does replace circumcision. With Christ as our sin offering, we are actually in a more complete union with God then what the Old Covenant could achieve. This was done through baptism. As Christ told us, ** Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.(John 3: 5)**

sulkow82 SFO