Why Doesn't God Reveal the Truth?

[jcrichton]

So you don’t believe that the scripture is complete? You don’t believe that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17) ? God says that the scripture is enough to complete and thoroughly equip a man for every good work. What does that mean to you?

Catholics say that tradition and scripture are equal. I used to be Catholic for many years and I never found that to be true. Neither is it true for all the Catholics I’ve ever talked to. What is true for all Catholics is that Tradition is held at a much higher status than any scripture. Why wouldn’t it? After all, tradition keeps you saved right?

I pray that everyone here will go to the Sacred Scripture for the whole truth, for completeness and for wisdom, just as the Bereans did (Acts 17:11) and just as God instructed us all to do.

You may have come across some Catholics that either do not understand or are tired of the anti-Catholic themes and just simply want to boast of having Sacred Tradition…

The Truth is that Jesus Himself reveals that He did not Teach/Reveal everything to the Eleven:

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. (St. John 16:12-14)

The Acts of the Apostles demonstrate that the Early Church is a Church in transition as titles and doctrines are developed (Acts 2:36-47; 4:32-37; 5:41-42; 6:1-7; 8:1-5, 14-17; 9:15-22, 26-43; 10:34-48); the Epistles and Gospels are themselves testament of this growht in the Church as more and more Believers must be taught and more and more disciples must reach out to the world.

Even in the Early Church heresies begin to emerge… some so powerful that they must be dealt with immediatelly and repeatedly (2 Corinthians 11:3-15; Galatians 1:6-9; St. Jude 1:4-19; 2 St. Peter 1:1-22); yet, God uses both the persecution of the Church and the heresies to further the reach of the Church and to cement the Faith of the Believers.

As the need of the Epistles and the Gospels arise so to the need to define or refine the function/administration of the Church and new vocabulary is used to graph Christian Doctrine; as the Apostles and Disciples continue their journeys both the Oral and Written Traditions are kept in order to preaching is done and teaching to both Believers and non-Believers (interstingly enough, the sola Scripturea people refuse to accept the fact that the Church existed and moved in the Oral Tradition for at least two decades before the New Testament Writings emerged–not to mention Christ’s own Ministry: strictly Oral since He did not employ scribes to follow Him around and note His every word!).

If we read the Sacred Writings we find Scritpures testifying that God has chosen to use both the Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition to put forth the Gospel of Christ and to give form to Christ’s Church; we can choose to ignore Scripture or we can humbly obey God’s Design!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[The_Reginator]

That is if the teaching of Purgatory is correct.

Brent

Hey Brent, I thought I’d pick up on your mention of Purgatory since I am a convert to Catholicism – a former Anglican. (For me it was a big leap although I understand that for some protestants Anglicans are not too far from Catholics.)

Purgatory was the easiest dogma for me to understand. It was explained by a friend in this way:
In order to enter Heaven we must be pure and spotless.
Jesus died and blotted out our sins, but during our lifetime we sin daily and accumulate the ‘stains’ of our sins.
Unless we die a saint, perhaps, we need to get ‘cleaned-up’ (ie purified) before stepping through the gates.
To get cleaned up some of us might only require a quick rinse. Other people need a good scrubbing – maybe a long soak in a REALLY hot bath. (Especially if we haven’t been to sacramental confession.)
That’s what helped me understand and accept Purgatory. I hope it helps you understand where the Church is coming from.

In Christ, Reg.

 

[jcrichton]

Greetings

Why do people think that just because someone puts on a pointy hat (mitre) and fancy robe or speaks fine sounding spiritual words makes him or her holy. Our most righteous deeds are but filthy garments to Jehovah God. Some people have a religious calling but it places then no higher in the pecking order of righteousness.

Read your bible, its good for the soul

Why do people think that Yahweh is happy to see ignorance spread throughout the world, in his name?

Jesus Saves!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Again, I thank everyone for their replies.

It is really interesting getting so many replies from Catholics. In the county I live in in Alabama, there are over 70 Baptist churches, plus numerous other Protestant churches. There is only one Catholic church. You just don’t run into many Catholics here, particularly those who are devout.

I understand your argument that the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus. Obviously, Protestants respectfully disagree. There is one small Protestant denomination (The Church of Christ) in which many within that denomination are convinced they are the one true church (and all the rest of us are not even going to Heaven)!

When Paul and Barnabas split on their journeys, God continued to use them both. I suspect that is the case today. Whether Satan was behind the split (reformation), God made good come from it. I suspect some have come to know the Lord through Protestant evangelism (particularly on the charismatic end) that may have never known Him through the Catholic Church.

Let’s assume the Catholic teachings about Purgatory are right, I have to believe it is God’s will for some to be blinded to that fact for the benefit of the Gospel. Because I just have to believe that Billy Graham (a famous example of an undeniable seeker of the truth in walking in fellowship with God) would have been revealed that truth. I don’t think it is out of ignorance. But rather it is just God’s will that some remain blinded to that for the furtherance of the Kingdom. That is if the teaching of Purgatory is correct.

And our upbringing has a lot to do with it. As I said, there are few Catholics around here. Purgatory is a hard pill to swallow when Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And from a Baptist standpoint (respectfully of course), we believe Jesus paid our debt in full and God the Father did not consider Jesus’ sacrifice to be insufficient so that there was more debt to be paid for our sin. But that is another long debate. We believe that faith without works is dead because true faith will produce works. Works are a natural product of true faith. But the works do not “save” us or have anything to do with our salvation. Rather the works are an evidence of our having placed our trust in Christ and He being Lord of our lives.

Above all, I think the saddest reality is this: there are many people filling the pews of both Protestant and Catholic churches who really aren’t Christians. There lives show no fruit (works). They just go to church because that is what they do-- what is expected. They enjoy no relationship (i.e. prayer and Bible study) during the week. Just get up and go to church, and go through the motions thinking that is all they need to do. These people are convinced that they are going to Heaven, when as Jesus said, “he never knew” them. Satan is a deceiver and he has deceived many.

Loving each of you in the Lord,
Brent

Hi, Brent!

I concur with your last paragraph–Jesus warned “when the Son of man returns, will He find Faith on the earth?”

Here’s a query for you… since Scriptures demonstrate that the Holy Spirit was given through the imposition of the hands… those who separated from the Church and chose to go a seperate way, were they commanded by the Holy Spirit to split Christ’s Church?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[The_Reginator]

So you don’t believe that the ****scripture is complete? ****You don’t believe that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17) ? God says that the scripture is enough to complete and thoroughly equip a man for every good work. What does that mean to you?

Catholics say that tradition and scripture are equal. I used to be Catholic for many years and I never found that to be true. Neither is it true for all the Catholics I’ve ever talked to. What is true for all Catholics is that Tradition is held at a much higher status than any scripture. Why wouldn’t it? After all, tradition keeps you saved right?

I pray that everyone here will go to the Sacred Scripture for the whole truth, for completeness and for wisdom, just as the Bereans did (Acts 17:11) and just as God instructed us all to do.

From John 21:

25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Scripture is NOT complete. As I have said, Jesus did not leave us with a bible, only with His Church. If we only needed the Scriptures then we would all be part of the Church. It is individual bible interpretation that splits us apart.
Just think – Jesus died for us and yet we insist on using our own intellects to interpret the bible and decide for ourselves what is true and what isn’t. Do you not think His Heart aches??

And, as has been pointed out by many here,** without the Catholic Church there would be no bible. The bible itself came out of tradition. **
Reading the bible is essential and leads to truth. If we could find THE TRUTH by only reading the bible then there would be no denominations. Only the Catholic Church, who wrote the bible and has been entrusted with the deposit of faith, has been given the authority to correctly interpret Scripture.

 

[brentAL]

…
That’s what helped me understand and accept Purgatory. I hope it helps you understand where the Church is coming from.

In Christ, Reg.

Thanks, Reg. Did Jesus or the apostles ever discuss Purgatory? Are there New Testament scriptures that Catholics believe imply the existence of Purgatory?

Brent

 

[murphjos]

Jesus refers to this miracle in Matt 16. Since Jesus is reminding his disciples of how he fed 5000 with 5 loaves how can anyone preach that this is a metaphor for getting them to share what was already present?

Matthew Chapter 16

Jesus said to them, "Look out, and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
They concluded among themselves, saying, “It is because we have brought no bread.”
When Jesus became aware of this he said, “You of little faith, why do you conclude among yourselves that it is because you have no bread?
Do you not yet understand, and do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many wicker baskets you took up?
Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you took up?
How do you not comprehend that I was not speaking to you about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
Then they understood 7 that he was not telling them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees

.

 

[The_Reginator]

Thanks, Reg. Did Jesus or the apostles ever discuss Purgatory? Are there New Testament scriptures that Catholics believe imply the existence of Purgatory?

Brent

Brent,
I did a quick search and found this in New Advent:

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life “some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.” St. Augustine also argues “that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come” (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

* St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
* St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
* St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
* St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
* Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).

See also St. Thomas, “Contra Gentes,”, IV, 91. For a discussion of the exegetical problem, see Atzberger, “Die christliche Eschatologie”, p. 275.

(My underlining – now Ive gotta run or Ill miss Adoration.)

Maybe we should start a new thread about this.
Maybe later …

 

[The_Reginator]

Hey Brent!

So as not to derail this thread I did a search in CA for Purgatory.
Take a look at these results.
You`ll find some very interesting/useful threads.

Dominus vobiscum.

 

[Lola_Hoi]

So you don’t believe that the scripture is complete? You don’t believe that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17) ? God says that the scripture is enough to complete and thoroughly equip a man for every good work. What does that mean to you?

Catholics say that tradition and scripture are equal. I used to be Catholic for many years and I never found that to be true. Neither is it true for all the Catholics I’ve ever talked to. What is true for all Catholics is that Tradition is held at a much higher status than any scripture. Why wouldn’t it? After all, tradition keeps you saved right?

I pray that everyone here will go to the Sacred Scripture for the whole truth, for completeness and for wisdom, just as the Bereans did (Acts 17:11) and just as God instructed us all to do.

 

[Lola_Hoi]

Greetings

I was going to join the Catholic faith, after two years and many hours of CRIA and bible study my inner awareness said that this is not for you. Their is far too much emphasis placed on man made rites, rituals and dogma which has caused me much confusion until I decide to take a different direction in bible study.

For those who seriously practice their Catholic faith, God Bless Them.

 

[Danno2281]

Hey Brent!

So as not to derail this thread I did a search in CA for Purgatory.
Take a look at these results.
You`ll find some very interesting/useful threads.

Dominus vobiscum.

Since this link doesn’t work, I thought I’d just indicate one scriptural passage that almost certainly evidences purgatory: Rev. 7:9-14. The vast multitude which no man can number went through the time of testing and then (notice that they themselves did the washing) washed their soiled robes in the Blood of the Lamb, a great description of purgatory, a place of cleansing.

 

[jcrichton]

Greetings

I was going to join the Catholic faith, after two years and many hours of CRIA and bible study my inner awareness said that this is not for you. Their is far too much emphasis placed on man made rites, rituals and dogma which has caused me much confusion until I decide to take a different direction in bible study.

For those who seriously practice their Catholic faith, God Bless Them.

Sorry you were put off… may the Holy Spirit guide you to the Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[The_Reginator]

Hey Brent!

So as not to derail this thread I did a search in CA for Purgatory.
Take a look at these results.
You`ll find some very interesting/useful threads.

Dominus vobiscum.

As Danno pointed out this link does not work. (It did work when I “previewed” it, however…)
So here is one thread that might be of interest: Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

 

[The_Reginator]

Greetings

I was going to join the Catholic faith, after two years and many hours of CRIA and bible study my inner awareness said that this is not for you. Their is far too much emphasis placed on man made rites, rituals and dogma which has caused me much confusion until I decide to take a different direction in bible study.
…

Lola, that makes my heart ache.
I converted to the Catholicism largely because it was revealed to me that God gave us a Church – one that teaches with authority. Not man’s laws, but God’s laws/dogmas.
Jesus left us with something far more wonderful than the bible: He left His very self. He is still physically present under the species of bread and wine.

A few weeks ago I was at the Eucharistic Adoration: Jesus was present in his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity right there on the altar.

As I adored Him He made me aware of the fact that since He exists outside of time, I was adoring Him (all at the same time for me) :

1. as He was in the beginning (see John, Chapter one),
2. as he suffered on the cross, and
3. as He is enthroned in Heaven.
   As I adored Him I was worshipping along with the Heavenly Hosts. All this was happening at the same time!

Then last Friday night I was once again worshipping our Lord. After the Adoration and Benediction we celebrated Mass.
I received Jesus on my tongue and returned to my pew. As I swallowed the host something very special happened:
For a brief moment as I was so closely united with God that I suddenly felt reality. I felt really alive … I felt more real than I ever have in my entire life!! – a glimpse of Heaven perhaps.

I pray that your search for the Truth will someday lead you into this great union with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hallelujah! Praise be to God! Hallelujah!

 

[Bryan_J]

Lola_Hoi:
Catholics do not hold tradition higher than Scripture. Rather, tradition is based upon and grounded in Scripture. Scripture is not static but a living breathing message about living as God wants us to live. It is interpreted anew with every generation. In fact it is interpreted anew in, for example, every Baptist church. Every preacher has his own ‘take’ on Scripture. Catholics have one take. I like that.

 

[jcrichton]

Lola, that makes my heart ache.
I converted to the Catholicism largely because it was revealed to me that God gave us a Church – one that teaches with authority. Not man’s laws, but God’s laws/dogmas.
Jesus left us with something far more wonderful than the bible: He left His very self. He is still physically present under the species of bread and wine.

A few weeks ago I was at the Eucharistic Adoration: Jesus was present in his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity right there on the altar.

As I adored Him He made me aware of the fact that since He exists outside of time, I was adoring Him (all at the same time for me) :

1. as He was in the beginning (see John, Chapter one),
2. as he suffered on the cross, and
3. as He is enthroned in Heaven.
   As I adored Him I was worshipping along with the Heavenly Hosts. All this was happening at the same time!

Then last Friday night I was once again worshipping our Lord. After the Adoration and Benediction we celebrated Mass.
I received Jesus on my tongue and returned to my pew. As I swallowed the host something very special happened:
For a brief moment as I was so closely united with God that I suddenly felt reality. I felt really alive … I felt more real than I ever have in my entire life!! – a glimpse of Heaven perhaps.

I pray that your search for the Truth will someday lead you into this great union with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hallelujah! Praise be to God! Hallelujah!

That is the beauty of the Communion of the Saints, as St. Paul said, we Live through only One Lord: Christ!

Here are a few passages that explain why you felt such intimacy with Christ:

3 Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ. 4 Thus he chose us in Christ before the world was made to be holy and faultless before him in love, 5 marking us out for himself beforehand, to be adopted sons, through Jesus Christ. Such was his purpose and good pleasure, (Ephesians 1:3-5)

4 But God, being rich in faithful love, through the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our sins, brought us to life with Christ – it is through grace that you have been saved–6 and raised us up with him and gave us a place with him in heaven, in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-6)

8 So you are never to be ashamed of witnessing to our Lord, or ashamed of me for being his prisoner; but share in my hardships for the sake of the gospel, relying on the power of God 9 who has saved us and called us to be holy – not because of anything we ourselves had done but for his own purpose and by his own grace. This grace had already been granted to us, in Christ Jesus, before the beginning of time, 10 but it has been revealed only by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus. He has abolished death, and he has brought to light immortality and life through the gospel, (2 Timothy 1:8-10)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Catholics do not hold tradition higher than Scripture. Rather, tradition is based upon and grounded in Scripture. Scripture is not static but a living breathing message about living as God wants us to live. It is interpreted anew with every generation. In fact it is interpreted anew in, for example, every Baptist church. Every preacher has his own ‘take’ on Scripture. Catholics have one take. I like that.

I concur; part of the problem with non-Catholic Christians is that they lack the nearly 2000 years of Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition which the Cahtolic Church enjoys–since they refuse to accept the Authority delegated by Christ Jesus to His one and only founded Church, they continuously attempt to reinvent the wheel, even when Scritpures themselves tell them otherwise:

1 I, the prisoner in the Lord, urge you therefore to lead a life worthy of the vocation to which you were called. 2 With all humility and gentleness, and with patience, support each other in love. 3 Take every care to preserve the unity of the Spirit by the peace that binds you together. 4 There is one Body, one Spirit, just as one hope is the goal of your calling by God. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 and one God and Father of all, over all, through all and within all. (Ephesians 4:1-6)

Maran atha!

Angel