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Credo111
Guest
I eagerly await your response. And please be sure to cite instances in which he CONDEMNS orthodox Catholics–not simply criticizes them for good cause. “Condemns” is a much more serious charge.
Christine
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Christine
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Havard
Guest
I have shown you goodwill thus far, but before I go any further, I ask for your assurances of the same. I appreciate the need for clarity, however, as you can imagine, I do not wish to engage in a debate with someone who is simply looking for flaws in my words…
I grant that “condemn” was my word, so I take responsibility for any lack of clarity in my usage. I hope you’ll grant me the courtesy of being able doing so. The first entry in dictionary.com defines the word as follows: “to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.” Okay, this definition reflects my intent suitably. To elaborate then, I have perceived a willingness on the part of Mr Voris to express strong disapproval, or adverse judgment, upon of those whose views disagree with his own.
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lynnvinc
Guest
I consider Voris’s programs to violate the spirit of Catholicism (if not in all cases the letter), full of vicious and often false slurs, and outright lies, especially what he has to say about global warming.
However, since EWTN isn’t too much better on that score, just a bit milder (and has mild-mannered Exxon-funded spokespersons on to gently dissuade people from mitigating AGW), sure, why not EWTN have Voris on. Birds of a feather…
Both these media outlets are demoralizing to me – tho I loved EWTN’s Catholicism series and also Women of Grace and a few other programs – so it is very good that we have excellent popes in JPII and BXVI to look for for real Catholic guidance.
I would suggest in one’s fervor for Voris and EWTN not to forget the Church’s magisterium and the writings of the Holy Fathers and, of course, the Gospels. If something seems to go against these (which Voris usually does and EWTN sometimes does), bewarethe wolf in Catholic clothing…
One of my young Carmelite sisters is really into Voris, and I’ve tried to no avail to caution her that he violates our spirituality, even if some of the things he says ring true or make sense from a Catholic perspective.
However, since EWTN isn’t too much better on that score, just a bit milder (and has mild-mannered Exxon-funded spokespersons on to gently dissuade people from mitigating AGW), sure, why not EWTN have Voris on. Birds of a feather…
Both these media outlets are demoralizing to me – tho I loved EWTN’s Catholicism series and also Women of Grace and a few other programs – so it is very good that we have excellent popes in JPII and BXVI to look for for real Catholic guidance.
I would suggest in one’s fervor for Voris and EWTN not to forget the Church’s magisterium and the writings of the Holy Fathers and, of course, the Gospels. If something seems to go against these (which Voris usually does and EWTN sometimes does), bewarethe wolf in Catholic clothing…
One of my young Carmelite sisters is really into Voris, and I’ve tried to no avail to caution her that he violates our spirituality, even if some of the things he says ring true or make sense from a Catholic perspective.
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lizaanne
Guest
I would assume that if this rule applies in one forum, it is applied across all forums on the site:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9093797&postcount=15
(click to enlarge - or go to the link)
View attachment 13630
~Liza
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9093797&postcount=15
(click to enlarge - or go to the link)
View attachment 13630
~Liza
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Havard
Guest
If it’s not in the overall rules section, it’s also fair to assume it to be a section-specific rule.
That said, your call for charity is certainly appropriate. I harbor no ill will toward Mr. Voris, and I hope everyone shares that sentiment. On the other hand, I do think it’s appropriate for people to be able to charitably voice their concerns about any popular figure who is in the business of spreading ideological messages.
I’m sure Mr. Voris would agree, he certainly does a lot of “concern-voicing” in his own programming.
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
What amazes me about this and other threads on this site is how many people try to sneak in arguments for the global warming thing and claim that if we don’t believe in it we are sinning.
Wake up! This global warming thing has become close to being a religion for some people. It is the very thing that many of our Bishops have been warning us about.
I also realize that there is no arguing with fanatics.
Just my humble opinion…which includes that the whole global warming thing in one of the greatest hoaxes of the 20th century ranking with the nonsense of the Van Allen belt fiasco of the early 1960’s.
Wake up! This global warming thing has become close to being a religion for some people. It is the very thing that many of our Bishops have been warning us about.
I also realize that there is no arguing with fanatics.
Just my humble opinion…which includes that the whole global warming thing in one of the greatest hoaxes of the 20th century ranking with the nonsense of the Van Allen belt fiasco of the early 1960’s.
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lynnvinc
Guest
Sorry if I offended.
I also feel saddened when people on CAF attack and slander climate scientists (who have not been found guilty of any wrong-doing, except purveying an inconvenient truth) and environmentalists (like me) by calling us neopagan-pantheist-atheist-communist-totalitarian-baby-killers out to ruin the economy and take over the world (like who would like to take over a world in which the economy is ruined?
).It hurts and it’s demoralizing in the context of what our holy fathers and bishops have called us to do re reducing our environmental harms. (What is it they have to do to get their messages across?) Those attacks on CAF are similar to the attacks Voris makes against climate scientists and environmentalists concerned about global warming.
I’m just sorry to say that in my view his message only appears to be pro-life but is fundamentally pro-death. Everyone here is free to disagree with me; that’s just how I see it – dangerous.
So I would caution people to be selective – take the good Voris has to say and avoid the bad, including his harsh mode of delivering his messages. Same with EWTN, which is mostly good, only a bit bad now and then.
We are always safer with the Church’s magisterium, the writings of the Holy Fathers, and the Gospels.
And it might also be better to look into ways we can draw the misguided and unchurched into our fold and faith and hearts, rather than excoriate them and push them away as Voris does.
Gandhi suggested listening to one’s enemy and seeing what good there was to be used in what he/she said. Jesus told us to take the plank out of our eye so we could see more clearly the tiny speck in the other’s eye.
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Havard
Guest
Wise words, and well-spoken. Or rather, written. If Mr. Voris’ show helps inform people of important truths, I am indeed glad it exists. But we should be careful and circumspect with regard to any source of information. Specifically, how do we let it influence our thoughts and actions? Is it bringing us closer to the Lord in all ways, or is it driving us away in some?Sorry if I offended.
I also feel saddened when people on CAF attack and slander climate scientists (who have not been found guilty of any wrong-doing, except purveying an inconvenient truth) and environmentalists (like me) by calling us neopagan-pantheist-atheist-communist-totalitarian-baby-killers out to ruin the economy and take over the world (like who would like to take over a world in which the economy is ruined?
It hurts and it’s demoralizing in the context of what our holy fathers and bishops have called us to do re reducing our environmental harms. (What is it they have to do to get their messages across?) Those attacks on CAF are similar to the attacks Voris makes against climate scientists and environmentalists concerned about global warming.
I’m just sorry to say that in my view his message only appears to be pro-life but is fundamentally pro-death. Everyone here is free to disagree with me; that’s just how I see it – dangerous.
So I would caution people to be selective – take the good Voris has to say and avoid the bad, including his harsh mode of delivering his messages. Same with EWTN, which is mostly good, only a bit bad now and then.
We are always safer with the Church’s magisterium, the writings of the Holy Fathers, and the Gospels.
And it might also be better to look into ways we can draw the misguided and unchurched into our fold and faith and hearts, rather than excoriate them and push them away as Voris does.
Gandhi suggested listening to one’s enemy and seeing what good there was to be used in what he/she said. Jesus told us to take the plank out of our eye so we could see more clearly the tiny speck in the other’s eye.
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pnewton
Guest
Good point. Perhaps we could get Michael Voris as a banned topic here to prevent any problem. Until then, I would like to point out that I do not think this would apply to Michael Voris or RealCatholic TV any more than it would apply to Catholics for Free Choice, the Old Catholic Church or Pope Michael. Do you think they too should not be allowed to be criticized? It may be that what is not allowed is criticism of legitimate Catholic apostolates, not just groups that use the name “Catholic”. Remember, Michael Voris has never opted to submit to the authority of the local bishop. Until he does, he does not run a Catholic organization, according to canon law.
Also, it may be that what Mr. Casey was referring to was the problem of forum swarming, where one forum gets into a war with another forum. Perhaps a clarification is in order. Personally, I would be fine if we took a cue from EWTN and just banned discussion on him or links from his site.
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Havard
Guest
I’m usually in favor of the incremental approach of 1) a cautionary post from a moderator reminding us about charity, then followed by 2) personal warnings/infractions if needed, and finally 3) thread closure and topic ban only when all else has failed.
I don’t see that this thread has gotten to that third point, so I think a ban would be a bit premature/drastic.
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lynnvinc
Guest
I doubt very many, probably just me.
And I really didn’t think it would come to this 22 years ago (me being such an awful nuisance) when I and JPII started calling on people to mitigate AGW. I thought I’d just have to implement mitigation strategies (which we have done reducing our GHG by 70% and saving us $1000s), and tell a few people about the problem and great solutions. And they’d tell others, who would tell others, etc, and I could get back to my regularly scheduled life.
But instead it’s been like hitting my head against a brick wall for 22 years, and that wall of resistance has been getting stronger and harder. Nothing works, not the great $avings to be had, not the messages of the bishops and popes. Nothing. My priest is afraid to mention AGW, afraid of the Rush Limbaugh Catholics in the parish (in Rush they trust, they are a Rush-fearning people).
So when my Carmelite sister sent me a link to RealCatholicTV, and I got on there and saw the false presentations against AGW and against the bishops* (I’m waiting for the one against the popes), I was greatly saddened, and immediately realized that was a dangerous and counter-Catholic site.
So it’s just me who keeps bringing AGW up. All the other Catholics have pretty much been brainwashed by Voris, Limbaugh, and their ilk. I think I’m the last one not to be “brain-snatched.” I feel like Cassandra.
But I have to continue (so sorry). I was about to give up telling people about AGW and the many cost-effective solutions some 5 years ago when that week in Mass the reading said something about if you know someone is doing something wrong you have to tell that person or the sin falls back on you.
So here I am telling about AGW and warning about Voris and his (and EWTN’s) misunderstandings about AGW (let’s assume he and EWTN are not purposely or knowingly lying).
Sorry for my intrusion. I know it does absolutely no good for me to tell anyone here. No one’s going to believe me. My futile head banging continues until the Lord calls me home.
*Here are the anti-AGW programs I saw on RealCatholicTV:
- “The Climate and the Bishops.” August 27 2010. youtube.com/watch?v=ZLr3ti5qGR8.
- “Global Warming Unmasked: The Hidden Agenda.” December 9, 2010, youtube.com/watch?v=uMFAhW_ZmV8
- “RealCatholicTV’s ******** on Global Warming.” June 6, 2011, youtube.com/watch?v=2onR5iCSV04 (note that the “fake” weather map he shows (as proving AGW is a hoax) is almost the same as the real map the following month during the real heatwave that gripped America. Also note that CAF automatically turned his profanity into ******** – that’s cool ).
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pnewton
Guest
Yes, if charity is the issue, then you are right. If it is an issue of the topic itself, as in the case of forum swarming, which is not allowed either postitively or negatively, then that is a different kettle of fish.
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lizaanne
Guest
You are off the rails. That video, and it’s title, is NOT an official post by RCTV. Did you even bother to look and see who is responsible for that? No, apparently you did not, and yet you assume that Michael Voris would use such profanity. That is entirely irresponsible.Also note that CAF automatically turned his profanity into ******** – that’s cool
Have you called the studio directly to voice your concerns? Or do you prefer to remain comfortably anonymous and just bash people and organizations on the internet?
~Liza
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Havard
Guest
Boy, it’s a good thing you reminded everyone about the rules on charitable posting.
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lizaanne
Guest
I think it is a fair question, and not uncharitable in the least. If someone has what they feel to be legitimate issues with a person or organization, then take it to them directly. Don’t just bash anonymously on the internet and feel that it somehow does some good. It doesn’t.Boy, it’s a good thing you reminded everyone about the rules on charitable posting.
Matthew 8:15 - "“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.”
I don’t see that happening here. Just a lot of blowing of hot air on an internet forum about someone this person has clearly never even met in person, unless I am mistaken. But that does not appear to be the case.
~Liza
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lynnvinc
Guest
I just copied and pasted his title – you need to go to the link to see it for yourself – and it was automatically changed by CAF when I pressed preview to “********.” I guess they have some automatic profanity detector that won’t allow us to post profanities, but replace them with ******.
******** (note: this time I wrote that terrible work myself and this is what came up when I pressed “preview.”
But in all fairness it’s not much of a profanity. In fact environmentalists like it. It’s very good for making biofuel and fertilizer
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lizaanne
Guest
You still don’t get it. Michael Voris never used that word. SOMEONE ELSE posted that video to YouTube and gave it that title. The very fact that you don’t understand that speaks volumes.I just copied and pasted his title – you need to go to the link to see it for yourself – and it was automatically changed by CAF when I pressed preview to “********.” I guess they have some automatic profanity detector that won’t allow us to post profanities, but replace them with ******.
******** (note: this time I wrote that terrible work myself and this is what came up when I pressed “preview.”
But in all fairness it’s not much of a profanity. In fact environmentalists like it. It’s very good for making biofuel and fertilizer
~Liza
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Havard
Guest
In charity, consider referring to people as their proper name before using pronouns (e.g., “he”), Just for clarity about whom you are speaking.I just copied and pasted his title – you need to go to the link to see it for yourself – and it was automatically changed by CAF when I pressed preview to “********.” I guess they have some automatic profanity detector that won’t allow us to post profanities, but replace them with ******.
******** (note: this time I wrote that terrible work myself and this is what came up when I pressed “preview.”
But in all fairness it’s not much of a profanity. In fact environmentalists like it. It’s very good for making biofuel and fertilizer
That third video you linked, RealCatholicTV’s ******** on Global Warming, that was re-posted on YouTube by ccheng21, not RealCatholicTV. This ccheng21 was responsible for the profane title, as he changed it when he reposted it. There is a little confusion over whether you meant to attribute the profanity to Michael Voris, or this ccheng21 fellow, who appears to be no fan of Voris.
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Havard
Guest
Come on, that last bit is unnecessary.
Lynnvinc’s expressed concern was Mr. Voris’ handling of AGW issues, the title of the video was just a detail.
About your point on bashing, it is completely legitimate to scrutinize aspects of public figures as they pertain to how that public figure wields his or her influence. That is not bashing, which is uncharitable, it’s vetting, which is prudent.
As to knowing Mr. Voris personally, I think that would matter if the discussion was about his private persona, his personal life. But it’s not, all the criticism I’ve seen here deals only with the material that he presents on air for our consumption.
Edit: As to why his public persona is all that matters to us (his viewers, not his friends)… assuming Mr. Voris is a great, noble man, but the people get a different perception of him, I should think he’d want to be made aware of that! I sure know I would!
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celticcrusader
Guest
there are a lot of news storys out there from top scientists , recenntly some top people from NASA that also claim that global warming is a hoax, who do we believe , Politicans or Scientists
we will see in the next thousand years if we are here that long:shrug:- Status