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justasking4
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Romans 3:23, 5:12Just what sin do you think that the Mother of God should have been, or even was, guilty of?
I’d like to see your references for such a case.
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
Allow me to end this
Our Lord to Berthe Petit:
“The Heart of My Mother has a right to be called Sorrowful and I wish this title to be placed before that of Immaculate because she has won it herself. **The Church has defined in the case of My Mother what I Myself had ordained—her Immaculate Conception. **This right which My Mother has to a title of justice is now, according to My express wish, to be known and universally accepted. She has earned it by her identification with My sorrows, by her sufferings, by her sacrifices and by her immolation on Calvary, endured in perfect correspondence with My grace for the salvation of mankind. In her co-redemption lies the nobility of My Mother and for this reason I ask for the invocation which I have demanded be approved and spread throughout the whole Church. It has already obtained many graces; it will obtain yet more when the Church will be exalted and the world renewed through its consecration to the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of My Mother.”" [Sept. 8, 1910]
Our Lord to Berthe Petit:
“The Heart of My Mother has a right to be called Sorrowful and I wish this title to be placed before that of Immaculate because she has won it herself. **The Church has defined in the case of My Mother what I Myself had ordained—her Immaculate Conception. **This right which My Mother has to a title of justice is now, according to My express wish, to be known and universally accepted. She has earned it by her identification with My sorrows, by her sufferings, by her sacrifices and by her immolation on Calvary, endured in perfect correspondence with My grace for the salvation of mankind. In her co-redemption lies the nobility of My Mother and for this reason I ask for the invocation which I have demanded be approved and spread throughout the whole Church. It has already obtained many graces; it will obtain yet more when the Church will be exalted and the world renewed through its consecration to the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of My Mother.”" [Sept. 8, 1910]
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sandusky
Guest
I’m not following your response. The verses were posted as proof that everyone has sinned in Adam, including Mary.
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jmcrae
Guest
Either this also includes Jesus (since Jesus is also a human being), or St. Paul was using a rhetorical device called “hyperbole” - exaggerating for effect.
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brandymmiller
Guest
Being impatient with the student because they didn’t understand the lesson doesn’t help the student and doesn’t further the relationship between student and teacher so that the student has the confidence to try again. Be patient with our protestant brethren. At least they are here asking questions. It is a beginning. It shows they care. Don’t be surprised if they aren’t fully open to hearing your words yet. It takes not only monumental doses of humility to admit you are wrong, but for them these are pillars they have stood on that we are asking them to step away from. They have to be able to trust that the pillars we are asking them to step onto in their place will hold them. It’s a lot to take in for someone not raised in the faith, or for someone who rejected the faith a long time ago. Pray for them, that God may do what man cannot, and pray the rosary especially for these that our Blessed Mother may speak to them and whisper in their ears the truths that they can’t see.
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sandusky
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Christ is not “in Adam,” but is the antithesis of Adam (Rom 5:14); He is also expressly stated to be like us in every way, except, without sin (Heb 4:15; cf 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 7:26).
To argue that Rom 3:23, et al., would include Christ as a sinful being, for nothing more
than the sake of an apologetic concerning Mary’s alleged sinlessness, especially when Scripture explicitly excludes Christ from all sin, demonstrates the weakness of your IC apologetic, IMO.
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
And Mary is the antithesis of Eve, like us in every way except without sin.
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jmcrae
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St. Paul was writing for a particular audience, all of whom had sinned. He wasn’t writing to or about little children, or to or about Mother Mary, or to or about any mentally-challenged persons. When he said “all have sinned” he intended that the reader/listener should understand that he himself has sinned. St. Paul was not writing about Mary at all in that passage.
We all understand (and they understood back then) that little children and mentally challenged persons are without sin, and St. Paul was not intending to contradict that understanding in any way. Nor was he trying to make any kind of an attack on Mother Mary’s claim to sinlessness.
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Randy_Carson
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Why would that guarantee anything?
You completely misinterpret John 6 concerning the Real Presence in the Eucharist, you ignore John 20:22 where Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles, and you have no interest whatsoever in Matthew 16:18-19 wherein Jesus states that Peter will be the rock upon which Jesus founds his Church thus establishing the papacy and the hierarchy of the one true Church.
Therefore, why would having Mary’s sinlessness written down in the Bible guarantee that you or anyone else would accept it?
However, God did something even better…he made sure that an infallible Church has continued to teach this important doctrine for 2,000 years.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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justasking4
Guest
But this is not an exact comparison. Eve was a special creation directly from God while Mary was not. Mary was concieved by the same method that all mankind is i.e. fallen human parents. Mary was used by God to bring Christ (God-man) into the world while Eve was used to bring fallen men into the world.
The most serious problem is that the scriptures never hint at Mary being without sin or kept from sin.
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justasking4
Guest
There were fathers who did not believe she was sinless.
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jmcrae
Guest
Actually, they hint at it quite a bit. Your problem is that they don’t come out directly and say “Mary is without sin.” But there is absolutely nothing in Scripture to suggest that she ever sinned. The Early Church generally assumed that she was without sin - there were a few exceptions here and there, but the general consensus was that she was without sin, and the Holy Spirit ultimately guided the Pope to declare her to immaculately conceived.
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bookgirl32
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Read your own post again: Mary was used by God to bring Christ into the world while Eve was used to bring fallen men into the world. Let’s give special treatment to Eve (which I don’t believe He did, she was just the first), and not to Mary, who would be the mother of His Son. Does that make any sense?
And the scriptures very much hint at it, they just don’t black and white spell it out.
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Goth_Catholic
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:yawn:
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LilyM
Guest
And there are early Christian thinkers, held in equally great respect in their times, who didn’t believe Jesus was divine, others who didn’t believe Jesus was human, or that He died on the cross … we name heresies after them today (Arius, Docetus, Nestorius and the rest).
You can find at least some disagreement on literally any commonly accepted Christian doctrine - the point is to look at where the preponderance of evidence lies.
Preponderance of evidence is NOT that the Mother of the sinless God was a worthless sinner herself :nope:
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justasking4
Guest
With this kind of reasoning a person could “prove” just about anything. This very thing could be said about Andrew also since the scriptures never mention his sinning.
To claim that she was without sin is a major claim that must be supported with positive evidence from the scriptures sin it would be so far out of the ordinary. Its on the same level as claiming that Jesus was God. To support this claim would require a lot of “positive” evidence that this was true. Thank God we have such evidence from the sciptures themselves.
Did not the pope claim that there was unaminious support from the early church that she was without sin?
How does a person know if this is true or not i.e. “the Holy Spirit ultimately guided the Pope”?
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bookgirl32
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How does a person know if the Holy Spirit guided the writers of the Gospels?
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jmcrae
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In the same way that the people of Jeremiah’s time knew that Jeremiah’s prophecies were from God - because he holds the office that God has appointed for this very purpose.
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ChrisWRIT
Guest
Hi Sandusky,
My response was that the verses do not prove that “everyone has sinned”, or else they would prove that either Jesus sinned, or wasn’t man. You are correct to say that Jesus did not sin. However, the only alternative to this in light of claiming these verses say EVERY MAN sins is to either deny Christ’s true incarnation as a man, or to acknowledge that Rom. 3:23, et al. do not necessarily include every man to ever exist.
In any case, your clarification regarding “everyone has sinned in Adam”, is appreciated.
You are correct, when we are born (of the flesh), we are in Adam, & are “by nature objects of wrath.” (Eph. 2:3)
Why me? I didn’t eat of the forbidden fruit in Eden! Did you?
Of course not - Adam did, thus, all were condemned.
Rom. 5:18 confirms this.
“Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, …”
Jesus was not subject to this condemnation, as He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb, as the fruit of her seed. (Gen. 3:15)
That Jesus might become incarnate, while also being preserved from condemnation “in Adam”, Mary was given a special grace of God, & was saved at the moment of her conception from the stain of the condemnation of original sin, from slavery to sin & she continued to receive God’s grace so as to be able to resist it. Jesus WAS her savior – He just saved her preemptively.
Is it really that incredible to think that this could be possible? Luke 1:39-45 implies that it is possible to receive God’s grace & the Holy Spirit, as is evident from St. John the Baptists reaction in the womb to the presence of Jesus in Mary’s.
In fact, what better way to obey the 4th commandment than for Christ to honor his mother in this way?
I know, a few fathers (3 or 4, I’ve heard the ones from Tertullian, Origen & Chrysostom, but not from Irenaeus) doubted Mary’s perpetual sinlessness. They were private opinions which didn’t meet even with general agreement but remained exceptions to the commonly held belief that Mary was saved by special graces of God.
Peace,
Chris
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justasking4
Guest
The point is that the church has not always held that she was without sin. The mere fact that a lot of people had different views about this is not evidence. The only evidence that can be found if true would be in the Scriptures and the Scriptures don’t support such a view.
Secondly, no man-woman is a “worthless sinner” for whom Christ died.
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