Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[bookgirl32]

The Bible is Gods written Word, He alone is the true owner of His written Word.

There is no Scriptural proof for the IC.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states,

"No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture."

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Again, EI, show me scripture proof for there being a need for scriptural proof. I’ve posted this about four times.

And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Luke 1:28

.

 

[bookgirl32]

The Bible is Gods written Word, He alone is the true owner of His written Word.

There is no Scriptural proof for the IC.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the heading, Proof from Scripture, states,

"No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture."

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Luke 1:28

.

Again, EI, show me scripture proof for there being a need for scriptural proof. I’ve posted this about four times.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον

The blue word is from the root σῴζω, which means to be saved. σεσῳσμένοι is the same tense as κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene; namely, a perfect, passive, participle), only plural.

Therefore, you should agree that those who are saved, according to Eph 2:8, can never lose their salvation.

If you disagree with that, then your argumentation concerning the perfect, passive, participle and Mary’s sinlessness is inconsistent, and you should abandon it as an apologetic.

I will have to research the greek stems of that word before I can respond since they are different.

 

[po18guy]

Point being missed: The bible is not complete. It is missing an amazing amount of the Word. (Luke 3:18, John 20:30, John 21:25 to mention a few) It amounts to the Cliffs Notes of the life of Christ. It was never intended to be separated from the Traditions that were handed on to Paul, and which he, in turn, handed on. This is the tragic legacy of the reformation. 50% of Christian practice was lost to those who separated. Is it any wonder they cannot understand Christ’s church without the illumination of the Holy Spirit? Pray for Christian unity. Amen.

 

[justasking4]

Point being missed: The bible is not complete. It is missing an amazing amount of the Word. (Luke 3:18, John 20:30, John 21:25 to mention a few) It amounts to the Cliffs Notes of the life of Christ. It was never intended to be separated from the Traditions that were handed on to Paul, and which he, in turn, handed on. This is the tragic legacy of the reformation. 50% of Christian practice was lost to those who separated. Is it any wonder they cannot understand Christ’s church without the illumination of the Holy Spirit? Pray for Christian unity. Amen.

i agree in part that the Scriptures are not an exhaustive revelation of God in Christ. However, they are the only records we have of Him and the apostles. There is no evidence of any extrabiblical traditions of the apostles. If there were they would have been identified by the catholic church.

 

[jmcrae]

i agree in part that the Scriptures are not an exhaustive revelation of God in Christ. However, they are the only records we have of Him and the apostles. There is no evidence of any extrabiblical traditions of the apostles. If there were they would have been identified by the catholic church.

And the Holy Tradition doesn’t “count” because …

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
i agree in part that the Scriptures are not an exhaustive revelation of God in Christ. However, they are the only records we have of Him and the apostles. There is no evidence of any extrabiblical traditions of the apostles. If there were they would have been identified by the catholic church.

jmcrae
And the Holy Tradition doesn’t “count” because …

When you speak of “Holy Tradition” are you speaking of something not recorded in the written Scriptures?

 

[LilyM]

i agree in part that the Scriptures are not an exhaustive revelation of God in Christ. However, they are the only records we have of Him and the apostles. There is no evidence of any extrabiblical traditions of the apostles. If there were they would have been identified by the catholic church.

There is such evidence, and Apostolic traditions have been identified by the Catholic church - things like the ECFs ARE evidence of extrabiblical traditions of the Apostles, since the early ECFs were taught by the Apostles themselves and passed that Apostolic teaching down to succeeding generations.

And Apostolic traditions HAVE been identified by the Church - traditions of belief, such as beliefs about the precise Nature(s) of Christ, which isn’t spelled out in the Bible, the precise nature of the Trinity, which isn’t spelled out in the Bible, the precise nature of the Eucharist - which again isn’t crystal clear from scripture. All of these were identified and proclaimed dogmatic belief by councils of the - you guessed it - Catholic Church. And you hold to many, if not all, of the same Apostolic traditions of belief today, precisely because the Catholic Church identified and taught them.

 

[jmcrae]

When you speak of “Holy Tradition” are you speaking of something not recorded in the written Scriptures?

Yes - Holy Tradition is the source of all of our knowledge of the Gospel, including the Scriptures. (Without Holy Tradition to tell you so, you would not be able to know that the Bible even exists.)

 

[justasking4]

Yes - Holy Tradition is the source of all of our knowledge of the Gospel, including the Scriptures. (Without Holy Tradition to tell you so, you would not be able to know that the Bible even exists.)

Was this Holy Tradition oral or written? How do you distinguish between Holy Tradition and the written Scriptures?

 

[justasking4]

There is such evidence, and Apostolic traditions have been identified by the Catholic church - things like the ECFs ARE evidence of extrabiblical traditions of the Apostles, since the early ECFs were taught by the Apostles themselves and passed that Apostolic teaching down to succeeding generations.

And Apostolic traditions HAVE been identified by the Church - traditions of belief, such as beliefs about the precise Nature(s) of Christ, which isn’t spelled out in the Bible, the precise nature of the Trinity, which isn’t spelled out in the Bible, the precise nature of the Eucharist - which again isn’t crystal clear from scripture. All of these were identified and proclaimed dogmatic belief by councils of the - you guessed it - Catholic Church. And you hold to many, if not all, of the same Apostolic traditions of belief today, precisely because the Catholic Church identified and taught them.

Where in any writings of the apostles outside the NT do we see what they said or taught about the nature of Christ for example? Same goes for the Eucharist.

 

[po18guy]

You’ve missed the point that the Lord was making, and to whom He was making the point.

Be that as it may, the end of Lk 20:38 sums up the point well; namely, that the dead are alive
to God, but they are dead to the living.

That’s why the living **bury the dead—**they’re dead.

The point was that all are alive to God, even those we think are dead, and who have already been buried. Since Moses and Elijah were long gone, the Transfiguration revealed that they are not dead, but alive. This is the reason behind the Communion of the Saints. Although their bodies are dead, their spirits are as alive as ever. Thus, they can intercede on our behalf. We do not pray for one another just for kicks. We seek results. And, since “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much”, how much better the prayer of a Saint, who is now perfected and in God’s presence?

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

You are absolutely right, ja4. This “layer” exists only in your mind, and for some reason, you wish to impose it falsely upon Catholics.

Do not ever pray for JA4. That is a false layer. Let’s follow this concept to maturity: Do not pray to Christ for him, either, since Christ already knows what JA4 needs. I’m willing to give it a try!

 

[jmcrae]

Was this Holy Tradition oral or written? How do you distinguish between Holy Tradition and the written Scriptures?

Oral. It comes down to us in the form of poetry, prayers, litanies, rituals, creeds, and ancient hymns.

 

[po18guy]

I have often wished Mary’s life was more covered in the Bible. I realize, though, that there must be reasons for it. I have gotten to know Our Mother (and Our Lord!) better through recitation of The Rosary. Also through Daily Mass attendance, and reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. It’s a daily battle (against Satan) to remain faithful, but one that can be won if you always remain hopeful (and pray like a monk!).

I can’t even for a minute imagine Mary as a sinner. I wish I had a good answer for you, but sometimes the only way one can be answered is by deepening one’s faith. If you aren’t driving in that direction, you will always question something or another.

Jeanette

Jeanette, thank you for your voice of reason. Some Christians demand to see written proof of everything before they will believe. Is this what faith has come to, demands for proof?

Christ’s peace be always with you.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Was this Holy Tradition oral or written? How do you distinguish between Holy Tradition and the written Scriptures?

Sunday Worship - Tradition
Abortion is murder - Tradition
New Testament Table of Contents - Tradition
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are a “Trinity” - Tradition
Jesus is 100% Man, 100% God - Tradition
coffee and donuts - tradition

…just to name a few that you (hopefully) accept as true.

Anyone else have that song from Fiddler stuck in their head now?

 

[po18guy]

i agree in part that the Scriptures are not an exhaustive revelation of God in Christ. However, they are the only records we have of Him and the apostles. There is no evidence of any extrabiblical traditions of the apostles. If there were they would have been identified by the catholic church.

It IS the Catholic Church! Christ founded a church, not a bible. The Church is the living tradition of the elders, plus the bible. You can’t beat that. I couldn’t either, so I joined. Amen!

 

[guanophore]

i agree in part that the Scriptures are not an exhaustive revelation of God in Christ. However, they are the only records we have of Him and the apostles. There is no evidence of any extrabiblical traditions of the apostles. If there were they would have been identified by the catholic church.

There is no evidence that you can accept, ja4, because you have chosen to limit yourself.

And the Holy Tradition doesn’t “count” because …

It does not count for ja4 because he has already decided that it is “speculation of men”.

When you speak of “Holy Tradition” are you speaking of something not recorded in the written Scriptures?

I hope you will not fall for this, jmcrae. Not only is it an attempt to derail the thread (again!) but it is just bait. ja4 is not reallly interested in learning anything about the Sacred Tradition. If fact, he has made up his mind it does not exist, and therefore, has prevented himself from learning about it. Such questions are just a ruse to bait Catholics, so he can try to convert them into "bible christians’.

It is a circular method.

“All we have is in scripture”

“Or not? Is there something else”

“no, if it is not in scripture it is not valid”. It is on a lot of the threads already. Catholics are sensitive to it, so it is very effective in derailing threads.

 

[justasking4]

Sunday Worship - Tradition
Abortion is murder - Tradition
New Testament Table of Contents - Tradition
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are a “Trinity” - Tradition
Jesus is 100% Man, 100% God - Tradition
coffee and donuts - tradition

…just to name a few that you (hopefully) accept as true.

Anyone else have that song from Fiddler stuck in their head now?

How does the catholic church define Tradition?

 

[guanophore]

Where in any writings of the apostles outside the NT do we see what they said or taught about the nature of Christ for example? Same goes for the Eucharist.

LilyM! He is trying to derail the thread!