Will you list all of the ECFs who were personally taught by the apostles, and provide specific sources stating which ECF(s) was taught by which apostle(s), please?
The reason that reasonable and learned protestant churches hold to any of those above mentioned beliefs is that they are verifiable by studying the scripture.
And I suppose your refering to the Orthodex Church as well. Thank heaven your not God.
If this means what you assume it means then how do you explain Hebrews 11:5 and 2 Kings 2:11? Enoch and Elijah never died. So did they sin?
It’s an analogy! It’s a Sacred book, OK? But I don’t worship it. Not you, but I would almost swear that some worship the bible! Your bible says it’s incomplete, just like mine does. Don’t you imagine that there is more to Christ than just the self-admitted incomplete (but Sacred) book written about Him?
Ahem. It says “All scripture is”, not “Scripture is all…”
Of course it does! “Sola Scriptura” is an invention. Christ never used it, and neither do we. We follow Christ’s example and Paul’s advice:
Christ taught live, so that error could be corrected on the spot. He used Sacred Scrolls to teach and make certain points. He did not carry the scrolls and just read from them. He and the Holy Spirit are superior to scripture, wouldn’t you say? Nevertheless, Scripture and Tradition are intended to be used together, just as Paul did. Why do you demand written proof of everything before you will believe? How much faith does it take to believe written proof?
That’s why I joined it. Only one of the 33,001 varieties has the fulness of truth. But which? How can a Sacred, but incomplete book provide the fulness of truth? It can if it is used together with Sacred Tradition, which is the practice of the Apostles.
I do not call your church, or any church, a false church. That’s not a bond of peace. I call you to a deeper, more profound and complete faith, to the only church which has the unbroken line from the Twelve to today, and the church in which Christ lives. Oh, He visits your church, alright, but He lives in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that He founded.Christ instructs His church to preserve its unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph 4:3). He does not instruct His true church to pursue unity with false churches.
But then isn’t this the Agape feast spoken of in Scripture and early traditions…not necessarily coffee and donuts but a feast associated with Liturgy. Take a look at I Corinthians for example. BTW I did like those Methodist coffee times but we have them too with usually much more variety.Note the little “t” in tradition after coffee and donuts. We have those, too (traditions that are not Traditions). In fact, coffee and donut time was my favorite part when I was 4-5 years old at the Methodist church. It doesn’t sound very spiritual to say that my Methodist upbringing developed in me a love for the smell of coffee brewing, though, does it.
You contradict yourself several times. But that is the way of false teachings. You are “blown about by every wind of doctrine”. I don’t expect you to see it, or if you do, to admit seeing it. Yet it is painfully obvious to the well trained mind and to virtually any Catholic or Orthodox person. When you are ready to learn the Church will help you discover the truth.For you the scripture is nothing but “Cliff Notes”—amazing.
Be that as it may, all Scripture was written under the inspiration of the HS (2 Pet 1:20-21), and, the HS was very gracious in letting us know through John, that not everything the Lord spoke while He was here on the earth was recorded for us, but the HS was equally gracious, even more gracious, in assuring us through Paul of the profitableness of scripture to equip every worker in His church for every good work (2 Tim 3:17).
You’re church rejects the need of scripture alone to equip the saints, and it insists on the need of its “oral tradition” to equip its members. Because of that position, your church cannot be the one true church, as it proclaims itself to be, IMO.
What oral traditions, specifically, did Paul hand on?
There is no tragedy in Christ’s true church.
As Paul says, there is one body and one Spirit, in one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all (Eph 4:4ff).
Christ instructs His church to preserve its unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph 4:3). He does not instruct His true church to pursue unity with false churches.
**That is an incorrect assertion and assumption on your part. The qualifier in Eph 2:8 is the presence of Grace. Once the Grace is rejected or discarded then ppp of the salvation becomes null and void. You have been shown time and time again those verses that show that salvation can be lost yet you still try to play the Pharisee or Sadducee (or even worse Satan) who tried to trip up Jesus and/or his Apostles by trying to trip us here up. **
The problem a person has without a written record is that you have no way to verify the claim. Secondly, oral teachings get corrupted rather quickly.
How do you “verify” the Bible? Other than the council that verified it for you?
You know, this always gets me. The first paragraph you quote and interpret in one paragraph to support sola scriptura. You never, once, in that paragraph mention the word “alone”. I assume that’s because you cannot in that paragraph since you’re quoting the Bible, and the Bible doesn’t say it.
There’s plenty of it, what are you talking about? The Crucifixion itself, necessary and beautiful and what redeems me, was very tragic.
Interesting here, he’s listing all these “ones”, he doesn’t say “one form of divinely inspired revelation”, does he?
So you can seriously call the RCC a false church? You sound like a Christian to me, I don’t believe yours possesses the fullness of the truth, but I DO believe it most likely (I don’t know what your church is) possesses truth, and is not false.Christ instructs His church to preserve its unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph 4:3). He does not instruct His true church to pursue unity with false churches.
This should end his argument right there. The only way he knows that the Bible is the inspired word of God is because a council told him it was.
Unless his conviction has led him to believe that the Bible dropped out of Heaven one day into the lap of a Baptist hiding in a cave…
Our Church was established by Jesus Christ himself, who was it that established yours again? Did Christ wait 1800 years to reveal his true Church to us? Oral tradition was good enough for the Apostles so it is good enough for me.
Don’t you trust in God? Don’t you trust in Jesus great commission to His Church?
Yes.
Yes.
I know of no sanction in Scripture for a person not to interpret the Scriptures. In fact Jesus certainly believed that people could read it and come to a proper understanding of it. In a sense the Scriptures do teach in that they impart knowledge to those who read and study them.
What is the Gospel message in the catholic church?
Is it not true that not all of the teachings of the catholic church is not apostolic?
Do you have chapter and verse for this?
I agree. False teachings have been a problem for the church since the NT times.
or by a failure to do good when you could have…
– James 4:17
Good question and one that has some good answers.
Okay, I’ll look forward to them. I’d actually like to ask you to, how do you “use” sola scriptura? Is it that everything you believe has to be specifically contained in scripture, or nothing you believe can be negated by scripture?
Yet scripture seems to disagree with you.
I don’t want to derail this thread. Briefly the scriptures are the starting and ending points for doctrine and practice. Everything that is essential for a Christian to believe and practice can be found there. There are beliefs that i do have that are not in scripture but these would not have the authority or foundation as beliefs grounded in the Scriptures.