Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[guanophore]

Because a few churches read the Didache or Hermas, does not make the vast majority who recognized the voice of GOD confused as to what God said. The few books not yet recognized were of no doctrinal effect.

These are great books, and there is much in them that is “of God”. It is not accurate to say that the books are “not of God” because they were not included in the canon. On the contrary, the books that were in dispute had great doctrinal effect. That is one reason they were in dispute!

In the same way that the books Luther removed from the Bible are critical in their doctrinal effects. Luther wanted to take out James, because it is the only book where the words “saved by faith alone” appear together in the NT.

Sorry, there was only very little uncertainty considering John knew Polycarp who knew Iraneus who quoted 24 out 27 books of the NT. I do understand why you want mass confusion however

Really? I’d like to know. How did the confusion help?

The book of Revelation, being apocalyptic in nature, was a great point of controversy. It was also of concern that no one really knew who authored Hebrews.

Can you find a rescource that tells of who and how many churches read these non scriptural books. Maybe someone who knows how massive this supposed problem was?

This might balance out your selection of reading material quite a bit. It seems like you have the evangelical perspective down quite well.

It never seemed to be much in doubt by the Jews, regardless of the red herring council of Jamnia.

You can see how much dissention there was among the Jews even in the NT. This is how Paul always got the arguments started at his trials. He knew that the Sadducees only accepted the Torah, so he would set them off against the Pharisees, who accept the Torah, but also the “prophets” which contained doctrines that the Sadducees did not accept, like resurrection, angels, etc.

Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint, which is rejected by Protestants today.

Sure, there were about 5 books that were disputed, clearly not the mass confusion that most Catholic apologists would like to create.

You are leaving out a number of writings that did not make the canon that were also disputed. There were about 300 works extant at the time that were all claiming to be Apostolic. However, it really doesn’t matter if it was five, or three hundred. The important point is that the job fell to the Church to discern what belonged where.

I think a study of Orthodoxy will also be interesting to you. When you get to that, you will find that these matters are not “Catholic” nonly.

 

[CentralFLJames]

It never seemed to be much in doubt by the Jews, regardless of the red herring council of Jamnia.

Do you really want to use “the Jews” as a reference here given that they loathed and persecuted the Christians as well as Christ and had every motive to to reject the OT writings that Jesus himself and the apostles quoted? The question is why 1500 years later a breakaway cult of so called “Christians” under Luther would be more willing to identify with the enemies of Jesus and the early Church than with The Church that had taught from the same cannon for over a 1000 years. Anyone using the judgement of the Jews who were directly responsible for judging Jesus to be evil and crucifying him has NO credibility.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

More evidence that the Holy Spirit teaches that Mary was sinless is found in the fact that “The Hail Mary” is one of the most scripturally integrative prayers in all of Christendom.

Scriptural Basis for the “Hail Mary” Prayer

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

The Greek kecharitomene means favored by grace, graced. Its tense suggests a permanent state of being “highly favored,” thus full of grace. Charity, the divine love within us, comes from the same root. God is infinite Goodness, infinite Love. Mary is perfect created goodness, filled to the limit of her finite being with grace or charity.

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women…”

Luke 1:48 “For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.”

Among all women is a way to say the highest/greatest etc. of a group in Semitic languages (these words would likely have been spoken in Aramaic). Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God’s grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously assert, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God’s original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.

Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Luke 1:42b “and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”

Jesus is Mary’s fruit. Good fruit does not come from anything but a good tree (Mt. 7:17-18)! The all-holy Son of God could not be the fruit of any other tree than the Immaculate Virgin.

Holy Mary, Mother of God

Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Kyrios is the Greek word used by the Jews in the Septuagint Bible (Greek translation) for Yhwh, the Divine Name of God. In her greeting of Mary, Elizabeth is saying: “How is it that the mother of my God should come to me.” Against the heresies of the 4th and 5th centuries which tried to split the Person of Jesus into two, divine and human, denying one or the other, the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD proclaimed Mary Theotokos (God-bearer, i.e. mother of God). Jesus is a single Person, a Divine Person, the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity. To be mother of the Person Jesus is to be mother of a Person who is God. Mary’s title protects this truth against errors which emphasize or deny, either the divinity or humanity of the Lord.

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Luke 2:35 “…and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

John 2:5 "His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Mary sees a need and appeals to Her Son to satisfy it. He does. We turn to Mary to ask her to intercede with her Son in our daily spiritual and material needs, but especially at the hour of our death. At that moment our salvation hangs in the balance as the devil makes his final foray to deter us from the path to God (Rev. 2:10). It is not surprising, therefore, that both the Hail Mary and the Our Father conclude with an appeal to be delivered from the evil one.

More Here: The Rosary and Sacred Scripture

This says it all. Amen

James

 

[JoeyWarren]

Sin was not in the world until Adam sinned:Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world…Therefore, the choice was Adam’s and Eve’s; however, since then, man has no choice with respect to sin.

Because, in Adam, all sinned (the very same Rom 5:12, cited above).

Cmon all does not mean each and everyone:

“the whole world has gone after him”

Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan?

“Ye are of God,little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody?

The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually.

The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile …

Source: studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3956

Sandusky and others, hapas is the only word used that signifys “Each and Every without exception”.

Was of ALL of Judah baptized? That would include the Gentiles, Pharisees, Sadducees, etc, etc, etc.

 

[brandymmiller]

There are many intercessors on earth but only ONE intercessor in heaven. Jesus Christ the LIVING ONE. Dead people do not intercede for living people. That’s Bible.

God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living. Souls do not die. The body dies, but not the soul. If this were not the case, Christ could not have called back Lazarus from the dead nor the 12-year-old girl. Since the soul lives, we may call upon the soul for assistance, much as we do the angels.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Sandusky said: Additionally, pas (not pantes), is context driven, and its meaning is either, “all without exception,” or “all without distinction.” A careful reading of the preceding chapters, as well sections of the OT, makes it clear that Paul employs both meanings; namely, all men, without distinction, sin (cf Rom 3:9, 23).

Source would disagree with you.

Bibliography Information
Thayer and Smith. “Greek Lexicon entry for Pas”. “The New Testament Greek Lexicon”.
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3956.

“the whole world has gone after him”

Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan?

“Ye are of God,little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody?

The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually.

The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile …

 

[CentralFLJames]

If God had intended for scripture alone to be the means by which He reveals His will and Love then why does He send us so many messages through Mary even to this day? What differentiates Mary from all the other saints? God holds her special and protected her from all sin as a reward for her cooperation in His Divine Plan to save humanity from sin. He made her the New Eve - the new Spiritual Mother for all of humanity.

This is a list of some of the more publicized Marian apparitions. Only those marked with a * have been fully approved by the Catholic Church. This does not list the many others that have been reported but did not meet the initial sufficient scrutiny for consideration as valid. Of all the saints of The Church Mary is the one that has been appearing all over the planet from the very beginning. It is very clear that Mary still plays a HUGE role in God’s plan of salvation. Based on the increasing frequency of apparitions of late it is also apparent that something significant is developing in our time.

Date |Location |To whom |Reference
39 (before her Assumption)|* Caesaraugusta (Zaragoza), Hispania Tarraconensis|Saint James the Great|Our Lady of the Pillar
352|* Rome, Italy|Pope Liberius|Our Lady of the Snow (Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore)
c.704|Evesham, England, United Kingdom|Saint Egwin|
1061|Walsingham, England, United Kingdom|Richeldis de Faverche|Our Lady of Walsingham
1208|* Prouille, France|Saint Dominic, recommending the Rosary|Our Lady of the Rosary
1251|* England|Saint Simon Stock, instituting the Brown Scapular|Our Lady of Mount Carmel
1490|Ceranesi (Genoa), Italy|Peasant Benedetto Pareto|Our Lady of Guardia
1510|Motta di Livenza, Italy|Venetian peasant farmer Giovanni Cigana|Our Lady of the Miracles
1531|* Guadalupe, Mexico|Aztec peasant farmer Saint Juan Diego|Our Lady of Guadalupe
1579|* Kazan, Russia|10-year old girl|Our Lady of Kazan
1586|Chiquinquirá, Colombia|María Ramos|Our Lady of Chiquinquirá
1594|* Quito, Ecuador|Mariana de Jesus Torres|Our Lady of Good Success
1600|Vailankanni, India|Milkman and sailors|Our Lady of Good Health
1608 - 1612|* Siluva, Lithuania|Four children|Our Lady of Siluva
1664 - 1718|* Saint-Étienne-le-Laus, France|Shepherd Benoîte Rencurel|Our Lady of Laus
1717|Aparecida, Brazil|A group of fishermen|Our Lady of Aparecida
1798|La Vang, Vietnam|A group of persecuted Catholics|Our Lady of La Vang
1830|* Paris, France|Saint Catherine Labouré|Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal
1846|* La Salette, France|Cowherds Mélanie Calvat and Maximin Giraud|Our Lady of La Salette
1850|Licheń Stary, Poland|Mikołaj Sikatka|The Sorrowful Queen of Poland (Our Lady of Licheń)
1858|* Lourdes, France|Shepherd Saint Bernadette Soubirous|Our Lady of Lourdes
1871|* Pontmain, France|Schoolchildren Eugene and Joseph Barbedette, Jeanne-Marie Lebosse, Francoise Richer and a two year old child, Augustine|Our Lady of Hope
1876|* Pellevoisin, France|Domestic servant Estelle Faguette|Our Lady of Pellevoisin
1876|Marpingen, Germany|Three eight-year-old girls|Our Lady of Marpingen
1879|* Knock, Ireland|Numerous adult and child witnesses. Accompanied by Saint Joseph and Saint John the Evangelist|Our Lady, Queen of Ireland
1900|Peking (Beijing), China||Our Lady of China
1900|Sheshan, Shanghai, China||Our Lady of Sheshan (China)
1917|* Fatima, Portugal|Shepherds Lúcia Santos and Blessed Jacinta and Francisco Marto|Our Lady of the Rosary (of Fatima)
1931|Ezquioga, Spain|First children, then hundreds over two years|
1932|* Beauraing, Belgium|Five schoolchildren|Our Lady of Beauraing
1933|* Banneux, Belgium|Schoolgirl Mariette Beco|Our Lady, Virgin of the Poor
1940 - 1996|Girgenti, Malta|Farm girl Guza Mifsud, age 15|Our Lady of Consecration
1944|Bergamo, Italy|Adelaide Roncalli, age 7|Our Lady of Bonate
1945 – 1959|Amsterdam, Holland|Factory worker Ida Peerdeman|The Lady of All Nations
1946|Marienfried, Germany|Barbara Reuss|Mediatrix of all Grace
1947|Rome, Italy|Bruno Cornacchiola and his three children|The Virgin of the Apocalypse (or Revelation)
1947|L’Ile-Bouchard, France|Jacqueline Aubry, Jeanette Aubry, Nicole Robin e Laura Croizon|Our Lady of Prayer
1948|Lipa City, Philippines|A former Carmelite nun Teresita Castillo|The Mediatrix of All Grace
1947 - 1976|Montichiari-Fontanelle, Italy|Pierina Gilli|Our Lady Rosa Mystica
1955|Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico|Three children|Virgin of the Rosary del Pozo
1956|* Rome City, IN, U.S.|Our Lady Mother of Mercy Chapel Sr. M. Neuzil|Our Lady of America
1958|Turzovka, Slovakia|forest-ranger Matúš Lašut|Our Lady Queen of Turzovka
1961 – 1965|Garabandal, Spain|Four country girls|Our Lady of Mount Carmel
1961 – 1981|Budapest, Hungary|Elizabeth Kindelmann, a Hungarian mother of six children|The Flame of Love of the Immaculate Heart of Mary
1968 – 1971|* Zeitoun, Egypt|Thousands of people, on a church roof|Our Lady of Zeitoun
1968 – 1995|Bayside, New York, U.S.|Housewife Veronica Lueken|Our Lady of the Roses
1971 - present|Rome, Italy|Marisa Rossi|The Mother of the Eucharist
1973|* Akita, Japan|Sister Sasagawa|Our Lady of Akita

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from prior post]

Apparations of Mary Continued
Date |Location |To whom |Reference
1980|Wu Fung Chi, Taiwan, China|To nine Buddhists|Our Lady of China
1980|* San Francisco de Cuapa, Nicaragua|Bernado Martinez|The Virgin of Cuapa
1981 to present|Međugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina|To six teenagers|Our Lady of Medjugorje (or Queen of Peace)
1982 to 1988|* Kibeho, Rwanda|To seven adolescents|Our Lady of Sorrows
1983 to 1990|San Nicolás, Argentina|Gladys Quiroga de Motta|Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolás
1985 to present|Surbiton, UK|To Patricia de Menezes|Our Lady of Surbiton
1986 to 1988|Belpasso, Italy|Rosario Toscano, a boy of fifteen years|Our Lady of Belpasso
1987|Hrushiv, Ukraine St. Louis, MO|Josyp Terelya, Maria Kizyn Brandon Taylor and thousands of others|
1987 to present|Anguera, Brazil|Apparitions received by Pedro Régis|Our Lady Queen of Peace, Our Lady of Peace, Nossa Senhora de Anguera
1989 - 1999|Kurescek, Slovenia|Father Smaverski|Queen of Peace
1990 – 1995|* Litmanová, Slovakia|Katka Ceselkova and Ivetka Korcakova|Our Lady of Immaculate Purity
1994 - 2000|Cebu City, Philippines|Dominic S Falar Visions and Locutions Concerning the Third Secret of Fatima|The True Third Secret of Our Lady of Fatima
1996 to present|Clearwater, Florida, U.S.|To countless people|
1996 - 2004|Vitória da Conquista, Bahia, Brazil|Apparitions of Our Lady, of Our Lord Jesus Christ, St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel the Archangel, and three messages from God the Father, to Fabiana Oliveira.|Our Lady, Mother & Queen of Families
1998 to present|Montreal, Quebec, Canada|Apparitions to a Montreal Carmelite lay sister.|Divine Light of Jesus and Mary
1998 to present|Santa Fe, New Mexico, U.S.|Apparitions received by local mystic and visionary revealing prophetic messages relating to global events and end times|[1]
1997 to present|Platina, Brazil|Apparitions received by Francisco Ovídio da Silva|Our Lady of Platina (both sites in Portuguese)
1999|Marpingen, Germany|Three women. This is the second apparition at Marpingen. Not approved by the roman catholic church.|Our Lady of Marpingen
2000 – 2001|Assiut, Egypt|To millions of people, approved by Coptic Orthodox Church|Our Lady of Assiut
2001 to present|Hilversum, The Netherlands|Apparitions of Mary and Jesus to Agatha Molki, a Catholic woman. Private and public revelations.|
2001 to present|Kodungaiyur, Chennai, India|Ms. Rosalind, Mr. P. Alexander|Our Lady of Jecintho

James

 

[Enoch]

It seems your round-a-bout answer to my question would be that, the apostles only orally on infant baptism, purgatory, and Mary’s perpetual virginity, papal doctrine, etc…

Is that what you mean?

What I mean is everything you mention above is supported by both Tradition and Scripture. Tradition is what interprets the Scripture

 

[Enoch]

My mistake. Without anything written i think within a generation or 2 it would be gone.

Well, I’m glad to see that you have so much trust in what the Catholic Church chose for the canon.

I also don’t understand why the faith didn’t disappear within a generation or two after Jesus rose from the dead with no Bibles around for everyone to sit on their couches and read. .

 

[sandusky]

CentralFLJames:

If God had intended for scripture alone to be the means by which He reveals His will and Love then why does He send us so many messages through Mary even to this day?
Apparations of Mary
Date |Location |To whom |Reference
1980|Wu Fung Chi, Taiwan, China|To nine Buddhists|Our Lady of China
1980|* San Francisco de Cuapa, Nicaragua|Bernado Martinez|The Virgin of Cuapa
1981 to present|Međugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina|To six teenagers|Our Lady of Medjugorje (or Queen of Peace)
1982 to 1988|* Kibeho, Rwanda|To seven adolescents|Our Lady of Sorrows
1983 to 1990|San Nicolás, Argentina|Gladys Quiroga de Motta|Our Lady of the Rosary of San Nicolás(SNIP)

I’ll refrain from saying what I think of your apparitions, and let the apostle answer:**Colossians 2:18-19

Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.**IMHO.

 

[sandusky]

CentralFLJames:

Do you really want to use “the Jews” as a reference here given that they loathed and persecuted the Christians as well as Christ and had every motive to to reject the OT writings that Jesus himself and the apostles quoted? The question is why 1500 years later a breakaway cult of so called “Christians” under Luther would be more willing to identify with the enemies of Jesus and the early Church than with The Church that had taught from the same cannon for over a 1000 years. Anyone using the judgement of the Jews who were directly responsible for judging Jesus to be evil and crucifying him has NO credibility.

Another appeal to emotion fallacy.

CentralFLJames:

Consider this:

If all have sinned in the literal sense through your sin of fundamentalist logic, that means Jesus sinned too.

For you to argue that Rom 3:23, et al., would include Christ as a sinful being, for nothing more than the sake of an apologetic concerning Mary’s alleged sinlessness, especially when Scripture explicitly excludes Christ from all sin, is to demonstrate the bankruptcy of your IC apologetic, IMO.

 

[sandusky]

JoeyWarren:

Sandusky and others, hapas is the only word used that signifys “Each and Every without exception”.

Was of ALL of Judah baptized? That would include the Gentiles, Pharisees, Sadducees, etc, etc, etc.

I know how much you’d like that to be true, but it’s not, and no, not every person in Judah was being baptized. Again, context determines the meaning.

What does God say about men?

He says that all of the imaginations of the unrenewed heart are wicked and evil (Gen 6:5; 8:21); He says that all men are conceived and born in sin (Gen 5:3; Job 15:14; 25:4; Ps 51:5; He concludes all men under sin (Gal 3:22); He says no man is without sin (1 Kgs 8:46; Ecc 7:20; Rom 3:23).

Context.

You are ignoring the context of the entirety of the context of Scripture in this, but you must, in order to adhere to the IC doctrine, IMO.**1 Timothy 2:3-4

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires
all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.**That’s pas, Joey; guess God doesn’t really desire all men to be saved. :ehh:

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Colossians 2:18-19

**Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, **taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

**and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.**IMHO.

there you have it…

No one can believe in “faith alone” as we can all see, it’s unbiblical. Thanks to sandusky for proving what we already knew.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

IC doctrine, IMO.

What good is your opinion? The Church has the Truth.

Sorry about having to state the obvious and all…

When pride leaves maybe the void can then be filled with Truth.

 

[guanophore]

Well, I’m glad to see that you have so much trust in what the Catholic Church chose for the canon.

I also don’t understand why the faith didn’t disappear within a generation or two after Jesus rose from the dead with no Bibles around for everyone to sit on their couches and read. .

ja4 seems to have an impression that God is either impotent, or disinterested in keeping what He has promised about His word.

Isa 55:11
11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

I’ll refrain from saying what I think of your apparitions, and let the apostle answer:Colossians 2:18-19

Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.IMHO.

I started a thread over in non-Catholic seeking to know what you think of the apparitions. My question is, if you believe they are not really appearances of the Virgin,then what do you think? I hope you will post your thoughts there.

Catholics do not worship angels, or the Blessed Mother. They are all creatures, and worship of them would be idolatry.

Furthermore, Catholics do not “take our stand” on such apparitions, but on the Holy Word of God. The apparitions, like the miracles of Jesus, are testimony that the Word is true.

All the validated apparitions of Mary have the effect of just what the Apostle has written here, and urge the faithful to do what Mary has always urged “do whatever He tells you”.

 

[JoeyWarren]

**Sandusky pointed out:

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men

to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.**

This would seem to contradict your personal interpretation of pre-destination.

---

How can God desire every single man to be saved if he has already predestined those to heaven and predestined those to hell?

---

---

 

[CentralFLJames]

I’ll refrain from saying what I think of your apparitions, and let the apostle answer:Colossians 2:18-19

Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.IMHO.

I am glad you signed your comment IHMO - “in my humble opinion”. But its clear that you are either utterly disingenuous or in possession of an infantile understanding of scripture to take Colossians to be a universal condemnation of apparitions.

If you understood the social context of Colossians you would know that Colossians was written as a warning against certain false Jewish teachers whom St. Paul had probably heard from Epaphras, his “fellow-prisoner” and the founder of the Church of the Colossians. Under the false pretence of humility some Jews inculcated the worship (threskeia) of angels, whom they regarded as equal or superior to Christ. The best modern commentators, Catholic and non-Catholic agree with St. Jerome that all these errors were of Jewish origin. Angels played an important part in most of early apocryphal books of the Jews, e.g. the Book of the Secrets of Henoch, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, etc.

The words of the Epistle against the superstitious worship of angels cannot be taken as condemning the Catholic invocation of angels. Dr. T.K. Abbott, a candid non-Catholic scholar, has a very pertinent passage which bears on this point (Eph. and Coloss. p. 268): “Zonaras . . . says there was an ancient heresy of some who said that we should not call on Christ for help or access to God, but on the angels. . . . This latter view, however, would place Christ high above the angels, and therefore cannot have been that of Colossians, who required to be taught the superiority of Christ.” The objection sometimes brought from a passage of Theodoret on the Council of Laodicea, is clearly and completely refuted by Estius (Comm. in Coloss., II, 18).

If you want to get to a more mature and holistic understanding of scriptural context read here: Epistle to the Colossians. But if you want to remain staunchly anti-Catholic in your narrow minded views of scripture just be careful that you don’t become obdurate and go to your grave in that condition or you will get to meet some angles who shared your belief in God but simply refused to serve God.

James

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Furthermore, Catholics do not “take our stand” on such apparitions, but on the Holy Word of God. The apparitions, like the miracles of Jesus, are testimony that the Word is true.

The Church stands on 20 of those apparitions, giving hearty approval as to their authenticity being what?

 

[moondweller]

The Bible doesn’t say that Mary was sinless because the Bible is God’s Word and God cannot lie. If the Bible explicitly, or even implicitly, stated Mary was sinless then God Himself would be a liar. But the truth is God cannot lie, hence, the Bible cannot state that Mary was sinless. But instead it states:Rom. 3:23-24 "…for all sinned (Gr. hemarton, aroist tense) and (continually) fall short (present tense) of the glory of God, being justified (how?) as a gift (by what means?) by His grace (through what means?) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (the cross)"That passage is not stating that all “have” sinned, i.e., that all have personally committed sins, but that all humanity at a point in time, collectively, “sinned.”

So the fact that ALL humanity historically sinned is explicitly revealed to us in Rom. 3:23. When this historical event occurred is revealed to us in Rom. 5:12:“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men (why?), because all sinned (aorist tense)…” The aorist is a statement of a past fact. “All sinned” (past fact) in Adam.

This is called “federal theology,” and the only way we can know of this fact is by divine revelation. God had to reveal it. It’s how God views humanity. Another example of it is in Heb. 7:9-10:"And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him."And so when Adam sinned Mary sinned, along with all of Adam’s posterity. It’s the reason the Bible cannot ever say that Mary was sinless. Long before Mary was born, nay, even conceived, she sinned with all of humanity “in Adam.” The only way Mary could have been separated from sin is to not have been connected to Adam at all. In other words, she would have to have been uniquely created by God - not born of human parents. And we know based on the Biblical genealogies that this was not true of Mary.

The only person ever born into this world apart from sin was Jesus Christ (Heb. 4:15). And Scripture reveals Him to be the “second man,” He Himself being another “Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45, 47). Not separately created but grafted on to the old through the virgin birth. He, like Adam, is a progenitor of another humanity, made righteous “in Him.” Paul, through divine insight, explains it this way:Rom 5:19 "For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."Paul’s sweeping statements in Rom. 3:23 and 5:12 should satisfy the O.P.'s question. It is impossible for the Bible to say that Mary was sinless, or support such doctrines as her immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness without contradicting itself.

By definition the “oral tradition” of Catholicism is to find its origin in the teachings of the Apostles. But that which was preserved for us in holy writ proves that the Catholic “tradition” of Mary’s sinlessness was never an Apostolic teaching. And it becomes painfully obvious that those men who eventfully fabricated such a doctrine erred by not understanding the Scriptures and Pauline theology.