Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

[bookgirl32]

Its what you are doing with the scriptures that is the problem. You are saying something about Mary even though the scriptures never speak of her like this. Take the phrase “pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death” is something that the scripture never implore us to do. All prayer is to be directed to God alone.

So when Shakespeare says, “I pray you”, he’s worshipping? Prayer is a form of communication, not necessarily worship.

 

[Kay_Cee]

The issue of this tread is “Why doesn’t the Bible say that Mary was sinless?”. Now surely you can’t fault me for addressing this question?

I can fault you for refusing to answer bookgirl’s questions.

The point I’m making is that the Bible doesn’t say Mary was sinless but it does say that Mary was a sinner due to the fact that she was born into sinful humanity.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12
.

Okay, I take it you can’t answer her questions. That’s very surprising since what she’s questioning is your system for determining what to believe.

And, since you can’t cite a Bible verse that specifically states that your system is the one we should use to determine what to believe, I assume it is a tradition of man and therefore reject it.

 

[justasking4]

garysibio;3581883]Scripture is quite clear that those in Heaven are aware of what is taking place on Earth. After going through a roster of Old Testament saints, the author of the Letter to the Hebrews refers to them as a cloud of witnesses. A witness is someone who sees what is going on.

Here is what the New American Bbile says about Hebrews 12:1:
" [1-13] Christian life is to be inspired not only by the Old Testament men and women of faith (Hebrews 12:1) but above all by Jesus. As the architect of Christian faith, he had himself to endure the cross before receiving the glory of his triumph (Hebrews 12:2). Reflection on his sufferings should give his followers courage to continue the struggle, if necessary even to the shedding of blood (Hebrews 12:3-4). Christians should regard their own sufferings as the affectionate correction of the Lord, who loves them as a father loves his children."

Note that these catholic scholars don’t mention anything about this being a literal kind of thing but as an inspiration to the living here to continue on in the faith in the face of terrible circumstances.

In Rev 6:9-10 we see that those who have been martyred are aware that God has not yet acted against their persecutors who are still on Earth.

So yes, somehow those in Heaven are aware of what is happening on Earth.

If this passage is to be taken in a literal sense then you might have a point. However, it seems that John is describing future events about the last days and speaking in metaphorical language.

Gary

 

[emeraldisle]

I can fault you for refusing to answer bookgirl’s questions.

I have answered the questions and I’ve given my answers from Gods written Word.

Now what about you, are you going to answer the question re the tread. Can you tell me why the Bible doesn’t say Mary was sinless?

And, since you can’t cite a Bible verse that specifically states that your system is the one we should use to determine what to believe, I assume it is a tradition of man and therefore reject it.

Gods written Word is not a system, its living and powerful.

*For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:12
*
.

 

[jmcrae]

*For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:12
*
.

This verse is referring to Christ; not to the Bible. Christ is the Word of God. The Bible is a narrative about Him; it isn’t actually Him.

 

[justasking4]

I will second this:
Peter Da Rock wrote:
JustAsking4, I hereby challenge you to address individually and in detail and refute them as best as possible all 12 points Randy Carson presented in post 651. 12 is such a good number.

The ball is in your court JustAsking4.

Matter of fact, I challenge every non-catholic that has participated in this thread to the same challenge.

Are you ready to rumble?

i looked at this and i have a couple of questions that will save a lot of time:
1- Who in the OT ever promotes or speaks of Mary as being an Ark type?

2- same for the NT.

It should also be ntoed that no early church father spoke of her in these terms.

 

[bookgirl32]

This verse is referring to Christ; not to the Bible. Christ is the Word of God. The Bible is a narrative about Him; it isn’t actually Him.

I tried pointing this out too, and got "where in the Bible . . . "

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;3588343]Your only mistake here is in thinking that the Bible is the ONLY God-breathed Revelation - in fact ALL Apostolic teaching, whether passed down in scripture, other writings (such as the testimony of early Christians as to what theyd been taught, or the Apostles and Nicene Creeds) or oral tradition - is equally God breathed, being equally inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Where does the catholic church claim that the creeds and other writings are inspired-inerrant?

It is from these extra-biblical sources that we are taught, for example, which writings actually are scriptural, Sunday worship, the nature of Christ and all manner of other common Christian doctrine.

Sunday worship is grounded squarely on the scriptures as is the nature of Christ.

Simply God used the latter two means (written and oral tradition) especially (with some hints in Scripture as well) in regard to the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness, as He did with the other doctrines I’ve mentioned.

What “oral tradition” are you referring to in regards to the sinlessness of Mary?

 

[jmcrae]

i looked at this and i have a couple of questions that will save a lot of time:
1- Who in the OT ever promotes or speaks of Mary as being an Ark type?

The same number who name Jesus by name as the Messiah of God. But Isaiah tells us that a virgin shall conceive and bear a child, and Moses tells us in the book of Genesis that the woman child shall strike the head of the serpent with her heel.

It should also be ntoed that no early church father spoke of her in these terms.

Technically, no. They did sing about her perfections, though.

You alone and your Mother
Are more beautiful than any others;
For there is no blemish in you,
Nor any stain upon your Mother;
Who of my children
Can compare to the beauty of these?

Words to a hymn of the Early Church.

 

[jmcrae]

Where does the catholic church claim that the creeds and other writings are inspired-inerrant?

It doesn’t. They are the ordinary magisterium of the Church.

Sunday worship is grounded squarely on the scriptures as is the nature of Christ.

The Seventh Day Adventists would disagree with you that Sunday worship is to be found in Scripture.

What “oral tradition” are you referring to in regards to the sinlessness of Mary?

The hymnody of the Early Church.

 

[bookgirl32]

Sunday worship is grounded squarely on the scriptures as is the nature of Christ

.

Where?

 

[justasking4]

So when Shakespeare says, “I pray you”, he’s worshipping? Prayer is a form of communication, not necessarily worship.

Can you cite one verse in scripture where there is an example or an exhortation to where you see a person praying to a creature?

 

[bookgirl32]

Can you cite one verse in scripture where there is an example or an exhortation to where you see a person praying to a creature?

Originally “pray” meant “to ask”. So, yes, I see a lot of people in the Bible asking others questions. It’s what you’re asking for that shows the belief. You’re “praying” when you ask others to pray for you. You’re worshipping when in your prayer to God you’re acknowledging all that He is and does. Nothing is asked in any prayer to anyone other than God but more prayer.

I don’t think this is where your problem is, for you have no problem asking others to pray for you, correct? I think it’s that you don’t believe that those in Heaven can here us, correct?

 

[justasking4]

.
Sunday worship is grounded squarely on the scriptures as is the nature of Christ
Where?

Christ rose on Sunday, Penecost (Acts 2:1) when the HS came to empower the disciples came on a Sunday. These are the major factors that contributed to changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday worship for Jews in scripture.
In fact i can’t think of another day of worship in the early church either.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Can you cite one verse in scripture where there is an example or an exhortation to where you see a person praying to a creature?

bookgirl32
Originally “pray” meant “to ask”. So, yes, I see a lot of people in the Bible asking others questions. It’s what you’re asking for that shows the belief. You’re “praying” when you ask others to pray for you. You’re worshipping when in your prayer to God you’re acknowledging all that He is and does. Nothing is asked in any prayer to anyone other than God but more prayer.

I don’t think this is where your problem is, for you have no problem asking others to pray for you, correct? I think it’s that you don’t believe that those in Heaven can here us, correct?

The problem is that after someone dies they no longer have anything to do with this world. There are just a couple of incidents in scripture of someone coming back as with Moses but this was never used as a basis to pray to him or others who have died.
The idea that thinking the dead can hear us may seem reasonable but it has not basis in Scripture. Jesus never taught this but wanted His followers to depend on Him alone because He alone is our high priest.

 

[LilyM]

Can you cite one verse in scripture where there is an example or an exhortation to where you see a person praying to a creature?

In the OT, after the Golden Calf episode, the people of Israel ask (pray to) Moses to intercede on their behalf with God to avert His wrath, they fear He will be angry at them if they approach Him themselves.

Moses is a creature, the people certainly prayed to him on that day

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Can you cite one verse in scripture where there is an example or an exhortation to where you see a person praying to a creature?

LilyM
In the OT, after the Golden Calf episode, the people of Israel ask (pray to) Moses to intercede on their behalf with God to avert His wrath, they fear He will be angry at them if they approach Him themselves.

Moses is a creature, the people certainly prayed to him on that day

Do you consider everyday conversations with your family and friends prayer?

When the people asked Moses to intercede for them it was not about praying to him. I know of no passage in scripture that would use this as a prayer to Moses.

 

[LilyM]

Christ rose on Sunday, Penecost (Acts 2:1) when the HS came to empower the disciples came on a Sunday. These are the major factors that contributed to changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday worship for Jews in scripture.
In fact i can’t think of another day of worship in the early church either.

They ‘contributed’? In other words there’s something OTHER than Scripture that we have to pay attention to? What else is there that could possibly matter, though? According to you if it ain’t in the Bible isn’t not worthy of belief. And according to you there’s no such thing as extrabiblical tradition because we simply don’t know what was taught outside of the Bible and other writings could be wrong anyways.

So you still have to answer the question - where is Sunday worship in the Bible?

You also have to explain away the many references in Acts to the Apostles going to synagogue on Saturdays. There’s nothing to indicate that they didn’t go there to worship God on His unchanging (read the OT or ask any Seventh-Day Adventist for references) Sabbath, as they had done every Saturday for all their lives.

And explain away Jesus HIMSELF who definitely went to synagogue of a Saturday and said nothing of Sundays - is that not evidence against the practice of Sunday worship if anything is?

 

[LilyM]

Do you consider everyday conversations with your family and friends prayer?

When the people asked Moses to intercede for them it was not about praying to him. I know of no passage in scripture that would use this as a prayer to Moses.

No conversation about prayer is just an everyday conversation, I can assure you. I certainly take the whole subject a bit more seriously than that.

And now you’re just pretending to be stupid - you couldn’t possibly, after all this time, still be ignorant of what we mean by the words ‘pray’ and ‘prayer’, and be unaware of what we DO when we pray to the Saints, which is precisely what the people of Israel are doing here with Moses.

 

[justasking4]

No conversation about prayer is just an everyday conversation, I can assure you. I certainly take the whole subject a bit more seriously than that.

And now you’re just pretending to be stupid - you couldn’t possibly, after all this time, still be ignorant of what we mean by the words ‘pray’ and ‘prayer’, and be unaware of what we DO when we pray to the Saints, which is precisely what the people of Israel are doing here with Moses.

When a catholic prays to a saint that saint is dead. The body of that person is dead in the ground etc. Now, was Moses dead when they asked him to intercede for them?