Why doesn't the Bible say that Mary was sinless?

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In other words Emerald, if you proudly boast that you are a fallible sinner using a sort of self effacing asceticism (the equivalent of putting on sack cloth and placing ashes on oneself) you are trying to project to your fellow men (and to God) recognition that you are nothing but a meek, error prone sinner. And we agree with you since you have convinced us that you are a sinner and fallible. And its true too because “the bible tells you so”. We Catholics also acknowledge this same individual fallibility and sinful nature - but in less dramatic ways so as not to overdraw attention to ourselves and appear to be rejoicing and even worshiping in it.

But can’t you see how rediculous it comes across for a man in sack cloth to cry out infallibly “I am a sinner and I am fallible” while in the next breath stating infallibly “I tell you Mary sinned because I can infallibly interpret the Bible better than you can and it tells me she sinned”? There is a profound contradiction in humility that all points to insincerity or a double standard - usually a marker for pride and arrogance.

But when we ask you for the simple proof in The Bible you can’t produce it and cling to your dual and strange position of simultaneously claiming to be fallable while trying to speak and interpret infallibly? We call this talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. I am sorry to say it - but it just sounds insane and irrational… :confused:

The Church, does claim infallibility since it has assurances of The Holy Spirit in scripture that are given directly from Jesus through the apostolic succession. Your fundamental issue is you do not accept the teaching of the Holy Spirit nor accept Jesus at ALL of His word. The question remains is how can you call yourself Christian when you do not trust Jesus at His word? 🤷

James
 
justasking4 said:
The scripture is the only source of knowledge on Mary that we have. Whether a person believes you need to base all beliefs on the scriptures is not the issue for this particular claim about Mary being sinless.
Do the scriptures in any place state that Mary was sinless?

Does anyone who knew here i.e. Jesus or her family or friends state anything about her being sinless?

Do any of the apostles in their writings say anything about her being sinless?
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When you speak of “we” please exclude us Catholics since this is NOT true. Scripture is NOT the only source of Truth. “We”, as in Jesus’ True Church have Tradition as well as the deposit of faith to draw on as well as the Holy Spirit.

Your problem is you do not trust in God’s word nor trust His Church. Why not?

James
 
sandusky said:
What is important is that the Spirit of God, through inspiration, directed the writers to write, in their own individual style, the precise words He desired to have written, and, He had them write those words in Greek.
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Um, I wasn’t trying to make an argument, I seriously didn’t (and still don’t) know.
 
justasking4 said:
The scripture is the only source of knowledge on Mary that we have.
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And it claims this where?
Whether a person believes you need to base all beliefs on the scriptures is not the issue for this particular claim about Mary being sinless.
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Oh yes it is. Most disagreements between Protestants and Catholics are, by the way.
Do the scriptures in any place state that Mary was sinless?
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  1. Do they have to?
  2. Do they she she sinned?
Does anyone who knew here i.e. Jesus or her family or friends state anything about her being sinless?
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You’ve got some pretty good hints (Jesus calling her “woman”, “full of grace”, the Magnificat, Elizabeth’s words to her, etc.), which you seem to accept for the Trinity (as in it’s not specifically spelled out). So I’ll just assume you don’t want to accept it.
Do any of the apostles in their writings say anything about her being sinless?
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Do the apostles in any of their writings say anything about the Trinity, worhsipping on Sunday, the contents of the Bible, etc?
 
justasking4 said:
The scripture is the only source of knowledge on Mary that we have.
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I’m sure Catholics would disagree and point to divine Tradition. (And I see James has beaten me to it and done just that.)
Whether a person believes you need to base all beliefs on the scriptures is not the issue for this particular claim about Mary being sinless.
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Oh, yes it is in emeraldisle’s case. That’s his (her?) major argument.
Do the scriptures in any place state that Mary was sinless?

Does anyone who knew here i.e. Jesus or her family or friends state anything about her being sinless?

Do any of the apostles in their writings say anything about her being sinless?
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Why can’t anybody understand that I haven’t gotten into that subject?

I’m simply pointing out a flaw in emeraldisle’s reasoning. He (she?) has stated he won’t believe Mary is sinless unless it’s specifically stated in the Bible.

We can write that as a syllogism:

Major premise: Beliefs must be specifically stated in the Bible to be worthy of belief.
Minor premise: The Bible does not specifically state that Mary was sinless.
Conclusion: Therefore, it is not true that Mary was sinless.

The problem is with the major premise.

*All I have been asking emeraldisle to do is prove the major premise is true. *I don’t believe it can be proven true, since it doesn’t even hold to its own criterea. And, if it isn’t true, I can reject this particular argument.

Does that prove Mary was sinless? No. But it does prove I can reject this particular argument that claims she sinned.

Now, just in case there’s still any misunderstanding: I am not arguing the topic of whether or not Mary sinned. I am delving much deeper than that and exploring the premises upon which such an argument should (or in this case, shouldn’t) be based. Right now I’m interested in the logic behind the argument, not the argument itself. Okay? So please stick to this subject with me.
 
sandusky said:
Can you tell me which one, or ones of the apostles orally passed down the IC, and the exact wording of the information each orally passed down?
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None of them.

The Holy Orthodox Church does not subsrcibe to the doctrine of the IC. We believe that it is an innovation of post schism Rome. We do not believe it is a part of the oral Tradition. We believe that the Panagia chose not to sin, through her own free will, by grace, during her earthly life.

But she was not born without original sin.
 
Mickey said:
None of them.

The Holy Orthodox Church does not subsrcibe to the doctrine of the IC. We believe that it is an innovation of post schism Rome. We do not believe it is a part of the oral Tradition. We believe that the Panagia chose not to sin, through her own free will, by grace, during her earthly life.

But she was not born without original sin.
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Thank you, Mickey. 🙂
 
justasking4 said:
The scripture is the only source of knowledge on Mary that we have. Whether a person believes you need to base all beliefs on the scriptures is not the issue for this particular claim about Mary being sinless.
Do the scriptures in any place state that Mary was sinless?
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Scripture is the only source for those that rebel against the scriptural commandment to keep the Sacred Traditions as they have been handed on to us. In that case, yes, the need to base all beliefs on scripture is foundational to this issue.
justasking4 said:
Does anyone who knew here i.e. Jesus or her family or friends state anything about her being sinless?
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The Apostle John records Jesus using the title “Woman” for HIs mother, a reference to the first Woman, Eve, who was created without sin.

He also records the figure of the Mother of Jesus in Heaven, crowned with stars.

The Apostle Luke records the words of the angel Gabriel greeting her with the title “Hail, Full of Grace”, a greeting reserved for royalty, and a title used for no other.
justasking4 said:
Do any of the apostles in their writings say anything about her being sinless?
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The Apostle Paul writes that anyone who is in Christ is a new creation, the old has passed away, and the new is come. Catholics believe that this occurred with Mary at her conception.
 
CentralFLJames said:
OK - thanks. I still want to entertain the idea that original sin may be passed through the male seed only. Perhaps a new thread…

James
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No; women also are born into Original Sin and pass it on to their female offspring. Where does this idea of “father only” come from?

I was under the impression that the Orthodox believe that we are all immaculately conceived - that they don’t believe in Original Sin. I was apparently mistaken.

The story of Mary’s conception and birth is recorded in the Protoevangelium of James.
 
jmcrae said:
No; women also are born into Original Sin and pass it on to their female offspring. Where does this idea of “father only” come from?

I was under the impression that the Orthodox believe that we are all immaculately conceived - that they don’t believe in Original Sin. I was apparently mistaken.

The story of Mary’s conception and birth is recorded in the Protoevangelium of James.
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Of course women like men, other than Mary, are born into sin since they are the corrupt fruit of the union between human men and women. It’s biologically impossible for humans using normal reproduction (non artificial birth) to conceive without joining together the male and female “seed”. So, I wanted to investigate a theological speculative theory that maybe just the male side contributes the original sin through the male seed. The woman/mother already has original sin by fact she is the child of a prior sinful parent just as all come from Adam/eve.

I am Roman Catholic not Orthodox.

James
 
I be thinking that we must ask this question of the OP and others:

Do you believe in at least 2 different types of sin.

One being ‘Original Sin’

The Other being ‘Personal Sin’
 
Listen you scripture only people. If you use the guidance of the Holy Spirit you can easily find that it supports Immaculate Conception. But you have to go deep into the scriptures and use tradition to have insights into every aspect of Jewish belief and ancient rites. A superficial, scripture only view of the world, devoid of an overarching Catholic (universal) perspective is not going to get you there. This is EXACTLY why you need to be in the Catholic Church - you are missing HUGE, HUGE insights into scripture and are denying yourselves the vast resources of 2,000 years of teaching that can enrichen your life. Learn and become enlightened and have life and live it more abundently as Jesus promised!

The entire Eden story prefigures “The Sanctuary” or the Holy of Hollies. Adam and Ever were created perfect and without sin. Even the orientation of Eden with entry fro the East (ref the Cherubim guards) and the Jewish temple and the cherubim statues guarding the entrance from the east and the cherubim over the arc of the covenant all show an amazing parallel to each other. Adam was originally the sinless High Priest of God and was there to “tend” to God’s garden. Since he was in God’s presence he was sinless - as was eve. After they sinned they JUDGED THEMSELVES NAKED and unworthy to be before God (just as we will cast ourselves out of shame into the banishment of Hell or Purgatory when death removes God’s veil). It is clear then that Eve never menstruated or had any forms of the ritual sins nor the moral sins until after she disobeyed and sinned. Menstruation and pain in child birth were artifacts and consequences of sin.

If Mary is blessed above all women it follows from scripture alone that Mary was even greater than Eve. For scripture not to be telling us a lie that means MARY NEVER SINNED NOR HAD ORIGINAL SIN NOR COMMITTED EVEN RITUAL SIN (bleeding after childbirth nor even bleeding during a period - the latter even is biologically possible from first ovation on the first egg produced). This is so plain that if you can’t see it then one must ‘have eye’s but not be able to see’ and this is not a good marker for your predestiny. Mary was blessed above EVE. Why can’t you people see this plain fact??? It’s 100% SCRIPTURAL!

Now get out your bibles and your study books on ancient Jewish rites and start learning the truth and letting the Holy Spirit work in you.

See this page for insight: Where Angels Fear to Tread

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
Of course women like men, other than Mary, are born into sin since they are the corrupt fruit of the union between human men and women. It’s biologically impossible for humans using normal reproduction (non artificial birth) to conceive without joining together the male and female “seed”. So, I wanted to investigate a theological speculative theory that maybe just the male side contributes the original sin through the male seed. The woman/mother already has original sin by fact she is the child of a prior sinful parent just as all come from Adam/eve.
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As a female, whatever I inherit from my father, I pass on to my children, even if only recessively. Wouldn’t this include Original Sin? And since Original Sin is a dominant trait and never goes recessive (Mary didn’t have it at all because of God’s miraculous intervention), doesn’t that mean that it’s passed on by both parents?

(I know, I know - I’m mixing subjects, here.)
I am Roman Catholic not Orthodox.
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Sorry, I didn’t mean you - I was commenting on the side-conversation between Sandusky and Mickey.
 
jmcrae said:
Sorry, I didn’t mean you - I was commenting on the side-conversation between Sandusky and Mickey.
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. . . which is a derailment of this thread because the Orthodox also believe that Mary was sinless throughout her life.
 
jmcrae said:
As a female, whatever I inherit from my father, I pass on to my children, even if only recessively. Wouldn’t this include Original Sin? And since Original Sin is a dominant trait and never goes recessive (Mary didn’t have it at all because of God’s miraculous intervention), doesn’t that mean that it’s passed on by both parents?

(I know, I know - I’m mixing subjects, here.)

Sorry, I didn’t mean you - I was commenting on the side-conversation between Sandusky and Mickey.
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OK - it was just a tangent thought. Let’s table it for now or another thread since this thread has about gone the distance and will be closed in about 30 or so more posts.

James
 
bookgirl32 said:
But you take even that she was sinless throughout her life as a matter of Tradition, correct?
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Yes. And Scriptural of course–full of grace (highly favored).

Rejoice, O Virgin Mother of God, Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. For thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.
 
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