Why doesn't the Church do something to stop Hillsong?

[agnes_therese]

So what exactly constitutes proof or concrete evidence? You can’t expect me to hire lawyers and detectives to get to the bottom of it. I’m not engaged in lawsuit, I’m simply going by what I’ve heard, and what I’ve heard comes from popular news, people that have been in Hillsong before, and by simple observation.

And that makes it okay to accuse a church of brainwashing and condoning murder? when there is no evidence that such murders even happened?

 

[Domiy]

Domiy;10119015:

So what exactly constitutes proof or concrete evidence? You can’t expect me to hire lawyers and detectives to get to the bottom of it. I’m not engaged in lawsuit, I’m simply going by what I’ve heard, and what I’ve heard comes from popular news, people that have been in Hillsong before, and by simple observation.

And that makes it okay to accuse a church of brainwashing and condoning murder? when there is no evidence that such murders even happened?

I haven’t accused them of murder, that was somebody else. I merely suggested that it wouldn’t be unusual that they cover up such of their actions, as they have often been accused of in the past with all the media control they exert.

I’m merely implying that based on testimonials, observance, and obvious contradictions between their teachings and the Bible, that they’re a dodgy church driven on money making.

 

[CB_Catholic]

agnes therese;10120391:

Domiy;10119015:

So what exactly constitutes proof or concrete evidence? You can’t expect me to hire lawyers and detectives to get to the bottom of it. I’m not engaged in lawsuit, I’m simply going by what I’ve heard, and what I’ve heard comes from popular news, people that have been in Hillsong before, and by simple observation.

I haven’t accused them of murder, that was somebody else. I merely suggested that it wouldn’t be unusual that they cover up such of their actions, as they have often been accused of in the past with all the media control they exert.

I’m merely implying that based on testimonials, observance, and obvious contradictions between their teachings and the Bible, that they’re a dodgy church driven on money making.

If there is one thing I have heard a million times over from non-Catholics, it is how rich the Catholic Church is and how power and money hungry it is. Also, how it’s teachings contradict the Bible. Also how corrupt the clergy are, and how many of their actions were covered up. We are always complaining about this on these forums.

Funny, how when the shoe is on the other foot, we can find excuses for it being ok to accuse others of the same things. With about the same amount of proof. And we won’t bat an eye about it.

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Such accusations are repugnant no matter WHAT ‘side’ slings them.

 

[Domiy]

Domiy;10126839:

agnes therese;10120391:

If there is one thing I have heard a million times over from non-Catholics, it is how rich the Catholic Church is and how power and money hungry it is. Also, how it’s teachings contradict the Bible. Also how corrupt the clergy are, and how many of their actions were covered up. We are always complaining about this on these forums.

Funny, how when the shoe is on the other foot, we can find excuses for it being ok to accuse others of the same things. With about the same amount of proof. And we won’t bat an eye about it.

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Good point. Anything we accuse anyone of can be said about us as well, as it is. But the difference is that the Christian/Catholic Church is here to stay. It’s not going anywhere, it’s been around for as long as society can remember and will be here until the end of time despite the lowering number of followers. Hillsong will be gone as soon as their market becomes slightly saturated. Yeah, the Vatican does have some mean funds at their disposal. But how much of it are they spending on buying out media companies or the like? If anything, their funds could be argued in their favor. We all know having that much money in todays world represents almost limitless power over people. Just look at what the big-name corporations are doing with their money, they’re controlling people with mass manipulation and guerilla marketing. The Vatican could easily do the same thing and would be 100X more effective if they did. The fact that they don’t do so represents unsung good on their part.

And FWIW, I (and I’d think many other Catholics as well) don’t deny that the Vatican is perhaps slightly corrupt. They almost need to be with all the powers swinging to destroy them, they like any other organization have costs and interests which need to be taken care of, even if not always in a completely honest matter. I don’t have a problem with people accusing the Catholic Church of using it’s funds to pull itself out of hot water, as long as it’s reasonably moderate and fairly judged in consideration of why they do it compared to how much other evil organizations do. But the fact is that for every tiny complaint someone may have about the Catholic Church, there are about 10, 000 people praising it endlessly. That’s a pretty good ratio.

 

[XRU]

For those of you not aware, there is an ever-growing group of churches who go by the name of Hillsong. Apparently they started out in Australia and have spread around the world. They’re the closest resemblance of a ‘cult’ that you typically hear about it. They guise under the Catholic/Christian faith, but practice it purely for the profit sake, and from what I hear, their preaching and teachings are terribly wrong.

Many people are commonly falling trap to their brainwashing techniques. We’ve known many people who have started attending their services regularly, and they come back quite different to the way they used to be. They display a great sense of Pride in themselves “You are not as Holy as us because we are Hillsong” is the kind of attitude their people display (although not in those exact words). The worst part is that it’s purely a money scam. The originator is a multi-million-air, and it’s hard not to be when the Church services stress the importance of giving more and more money to the collection plate (even going as far to imply that the more you give, the better you are in God’s eyes). So much so that they even have specially designed collection plates with weighted holes at the bottom; throwing in coins causing them to fall straight out, so you’re forced to throw in notes instead.

Can’t the Catholic Church do something, legally or otherwise about it? At the very least, you’d expect they’d be warning people to take caution with such groups. Anyone heard anything about this and where they stand?

Ya … . I was thinking Iron Maiden, but no . . . we stopped doing that years ago.

 

[colliric]

A Current Affair: Hillsong, The Money Machine

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryh1BvP9jEM

Brilliant reporting.

 

[Petergee]

Hmm, can’t find any news stories about abortionists killed in Australia.

There has never been an abortionist killed in Australia (nor, as far as I am aware, anywhere in the world outside of the USA, where there have been about half a dozen of them killed over the past 40 years). The only case of a violent attack on an abortuary in Australia occurred about 10 years ago when the lone attacker killed a security guard. He was found to be insane. He was not a member of any church or other organised group.

I’m certainly no defender of Hillsong, but there are hundreds if not thousands of other churches like it, or even worse, in the USA and elsewhere. Granted they are unlike most of those of this type in that they now have become multi-national.

I think “brainwashing” is an unfair exaggeration. I understand how one can jump to that conclusion when one finds one’s relatives and friends have been apparently mesmerised by the clap-happy “give me your money” techniques usde by such organisations.

 

[colliric]

I think “brainwashing” is an unfair exaggeration. I understand how one can jump to that conclusion when one finds one’s relatives and friends have been apparently mesmerised by the clap-happy “give me your money” techniques usde by such organisations.

It’s “brainwashing” that occurs primarily though peer pressure and atmosphere, rather than through direct doctrine, unlike more obscure less-popular cults. It’s not really that unfair, but it could be unfair to assert it is delibratly fostered by particular individuals within the Hillsong leadership(even though that is very possibly the case).

 

[Methos]

A Current Affair: Hillsong, The Money Machine

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryh1BvP9jEM

Brilliant reporting.

Not commenting of the topic, but providing a link for those people viewing this on a computer, not a mobile phone.

youtube.com/watch?v=4TUT98mOwKs

 

[Domiy]

I think the video says most of it. Do a search in youtube with “Hillsong money” and you get almost a full page of video scandals and controversial documentaries etc. Their reputation is well known.

Their sermons and preaching is primarily involved with money. They hold “meetings” in their entertainment centre and take down credit card details for tithing, no exceptions to the financially challenged. They spread the message that the more you give, the more you’re “saved”.

It’s a clear anti-christ. Something tells me that the majority of their members aren’t exactly a spiritual bunch who are well experienced in prayer, suffering, connecting with God etc.

 

[thunderboom]

I haven’t read through this thread, but I do want to say that the music produced by the band called Hillsong is fabulous. It’s brought me closer to Christ, so whatever their other failings, there is still some truth and beauty contained therein.

 

[Petergee]

agnes therese;10120391:

Domiy;10119015:

So what exactly constitutes proof or concrete evidence? You can’t expect me to hire lawyers and detectives to get to the bottom of it. I’m not engaged in lawsuit, I’m simply going by what I’ve heard, and what I’ve heard comes from popular news, people that have been in Hillsong before, and by simple observation.

I haven’t accused them of murder, that was somebody else. I merely suggested that it wouldn’t be unusual that they cover up such of their actions, as they have often been accused of in the past with all the media control they exert.

Trust me, no Christian group is able to exert much influence at all on the Australian mass media, much less “control” them.

 

[colliric]

Domiy;10126839:

agnes therese;10120391:

Trust me, no Christian group is able to exert much influence at all on the Australian mass media, much less “control” them.

I want to clarify this…

The man who shot the security guard in Melbourne back in 2001, was actually connected with the Hillsong church at one stage and was from Sydney. That’s where that rumor has originated from!

I actually don’t believe Hillsong condones such actions as murder, but that individual was originally connected to them. He was also participating in several Pro-life catholic protest groups at the time also, and I happen to know several people who knew him.

 

[Domiy]

Domiy;10126839:

agnes therese;10120391:

Trust me, no Christian group is able to exert much influence at all on the Australian mass media, much less “control” them.

I disagree. From what I know, they own Hope 103.2, the Christian radio station in Sydney, and they also have the rights to Guy Sebastian, the first Australian idol winner (he was from their group/church when he went on the show).

 

[colliric]

Petergee;10387029:

Domiy;10126839:

I disagree. From what I know, they own Hope 103.2, the Christian radio station in Sydney, and they also have the rights to Guy Sebastian, the first Australian idol winner (he was from their group/church when he went on the show).

Technically no, he was with Planet Shakers. That is an Assemblies Of God Pentacostal Mega-church in Melbourne. In fact they hold their meetings at Dallas Brooks Hall… The Freemasons conference building in Victoria!

Unfortunatly Assemblies of God is currently headed in Australia by, you guessed it, Pastor Brian Houston. In fact it’s just a plain bad joke it’s not actually called “Hillsong”, as it is controlled and dominated by Hillsong(naturally… same person leading it!)

So in practise, YES he was associated through the AOG.

But go easy on him… He sung the theme hymn to 2008’s World Youth Day, in front of the Pope, so he’s not all bad!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwoEU2uVDfw

Gee that video bring tears now… Only a few days left now… This was the Pope we all saw on our shores… Sad.

 

[ltwin]

Petergee;10387029:

Domiy;10126839:

I disagree. From what I know, they own Hope 103.2, the Christian radio station in Sydney, and they also have the rights to Guy Sebastian, the first Australian idol winner (he was from their group/church when he went on the show).

When I think of “mass media”, a Christian radio station is not what pops into mind.

Anyway, I find these rumors about Hillsong murdering people bizarre. They are your typical contemporary, prosperity teaching, Pentecostal church par excellence. They teach about tithing, and that if you tithe, you will be blessed. They have great worship music, while having somewhat shallow preaching at times. They are financially successful and wealthy, but none of that makes them a brainwashing cult. It makes them a genius at marketing themselves and attracting people, but that is not cultish. And no they do not teach people to go around attacking abortion providers.

Hillsong actually does a lot of charity work in Australia and in places like Africa.

 

[colliric]

Domiy;10390367:

Petergee;10387029:

When I think of “mass media”, a Christian radio station is not what pops into mind.

Anyway, I find these rumors about Hillsong murdering people bizarre. And no they do not teach people to go around attacking abortion providers.

As I have stated earlier, the rumor actually stems from the incident that occurred in 2001 in Melbourne where the security guard was shot dead.

The fact is that person who did that was previously a member of Hillsong and was down here in Melbourne for whatever reason.

There were actually some suggestions he was kicked out of the Hillsong Church for his radical views and actually came here to Melbourne where he was not known amoungst AOG Pentecostal churches. That certainly could be the reason he came down here. He could have been too radical even for Hillsong!

But of cause naturally the association between Hillsong and that murder got around. And one could argue “Chinese Whispers” has seen it turn into “Hillsong condones murdering prochoice” and later “Hillsong condones murdering Abortionists”… That is NOT the case, but indeed their association to that individual does raise questions over weather or not his attitude was permitted or initially condoned.

And by also associating with him, thinking he was simply an enthuastic pro-life activist(perhaps not being aware of his Hillsong connections) several Pro-Life catholic organisations also need to ensure this doesn’t occur again. He was active in those groups AS WELL.

 

[Domiy]

Domiy;10390367:

Petergee;10387029:

Technically no, he was with Planet Shakers. That is an Assemblies Of God Pentacostal Mega-church in Melbourne. In fact they hold their meetings at Dallas Brooks Hall… The Freemasons conference building in Victoria!

Unfortunatly Assemblies of God is currently headed in Australia by, you guessed it, Pastor Brian Houston. In fact it’s just a plain bad joke it’s not actually called “Hillsong”, as it is controlled and dominated by Hillsong(naturally… same person leading it!)

So in practise, YES he was associated through the AOG.

But go easy on him… He sung the theme hymn to 2008’s World Youth Day, in front of the Pope, so he’s not all bad!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwoEU2uVDfw

Gee that video bring tears now… Only a few days left now… This was the Pope we all saw on our shores… Sad.

Oh I really don’t have a problem with Guy Sebastian. Maybe he only won the show because he was under their support, but either way he seems like a nice enough guy, and he has a humble goodness to his appearance. I’m sure he’s just caught up like the rest of them in the whole modern-age preaching business.

*Anyway, I find these rumors about Hillsong murdering people bizarre. They are your typical contemporary, prosperity teaching, Pentecostal church par excellence. They teach about tithing, and that if you tithe, you will be blessed. They have great worship music, while having somewhat shallow preaching at times. They are financially successful and wealthy, but none of that makes them a brainwashing cult. It makes them a genius at marketing themselves and attracting people, but that is not cultish. And no they do not teach people to go around attacking abortion providers.

Hillsong actually does a lot of charity work in Australia and in places like Africa.*

I agree with them having quite good worship music, I’ve listened to a lot of it and I find it good, but as I said, it just doesn’t act or portray itself as a spiritual organization with the desire of saving souls and bringing people into truth. They just seem to be using the whole ‘Jesus’ theme to specify their target market, but what they preach and how they act is quite contrary to what Jesus or the Bible says. It’s like they believe in Jesus, but are saying “this is the way he really wants things to be, the 2 thousands year old historical quotes and actions of all the saints and visions were all wrong, it’s actually all about giving as much money as you can!”. By their logic, a priest who takes on the vow of poverty to humble himself down to the level of Christ and rid himself of all worldly desires would go nowhere because he doesn’t tithe. It’s ridiculous and it’s bordering on blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Now I don’t deny that they have some good intentions, or in fact do some good work, but I think the majority of it is simply work that benefits them more than anyone else, and is not done out of divine love or dedication.

 

[ltwin]

ltwin;10391867:

Domiy;10390367:

As I have stated earlier, the rumor actually stems from the incident that occurred in 2001 in Melbourne where the security guard was shot dead.

The fact is that person who did that was previously a member of Hillsong and was down here in Melbourne for whatever reason.

There were actually some suggestions he was kicked out of the Hillsong Church for his radical views and actually came here to Melbourne where he was not known amoungst AOG Pentecostal churches. That certainly could be the reason he came down here. He could have been too radical even for Hillsong!

But of cause naturally the association between Hillsong and that murder got around. And one could argue “Chinese Whispers” has seen it turn into “Hillsong condones murdering prochoice” and later “Hillsong condones murdering Abortionists”… That is NOT the case, but indeed their association to that individual does raise questions over weather or not his attitude was permitted or initially condoned.

And by also associating with him, thinking he was simply an enthuastic pro-life activist(perhaps not being aware of his Hillsong connections) several Pro-Life catholic organisations also need to ensure this doesn’t occur again. He was active in those groups AS WELL.

That’s a good point. I think people have to realize that Hillsong is a megachurch with over 20 thousand people attending its services a week. It draws in many people, some of whom could be nut jobs. That doesn’t mean that Hillsong or any other church a crazy or violent person is associated with condoned or somehow inspired those actions.

I would be a different story if such a person held a leadership position in the church, which would lead to questions if Hillsong was aware and affirming of such actions. I also could understand if there was actual indications that Hillsong taught or even hinted at it being ok to engage in violent behavior against abortion providers. However, if all Hillsong can be accused of is recognizing abortion as a sin and refusing to condone it, then that in my opinion is not “proof” of some sinister plot to commit violent acts.